Proposal for change to faith items

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Algon
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Post by Algon » Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:55 pm

Hey why you picking of us poor Tempurians?! :P

I myself do not see anything wrong with someone sitting down and planning out who their character is going to follow, you are going to have OOC reasons to make this choice weither it be, you want to wear red as stated above or because you think it would be awesome to have your hands glow and you could really have fun with that kind of rp.

And I also agree very much with it would be nice to have supp items be based on class. Seeing as how you are supposed to look at supp items from an rp standpoint. Your God is so pleased with you he chooses to bless you with something that is going to help you out, not just throw you a scrap to shut you up. Why would he then give a wizard something like a breastplate that he cannot even use? So having different possible supp items based on class is a pretty good idea IMHO.
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Post by Saradin » Tue Feb 13, 2007 6:17 pm

I agree with Algon.

It seems to me from an IC perspective that a God giving essentially useless item to their faithful who have proven themselves devoted to the deities cause (read: reached the favour level necessary to supplicate) is implying that he finds those who aren't a class he or she favours to be of less importance or use to him.

A supplicated item is, I believe, something your deity creates on the spot for you as a reward for service, so my impression would be the deity saying to his/her favoured class/classes "Here, take this and go forth and do great things in my name!" and then to other classes , "Look, something shiny, stop bothering me."
(Note: I'm not trying to imply that the deity players themselves think this way)

That said, I like Selveems idea, players submitting quests that would allow them to exchange those supplicated items that are of no use to them
for faith regalia suitable to their class.
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Post by Mele » Wed Feb 14, 2007 3:20 am

"Hey <place god here> I uh. Really appreciate this divine gift. But uh. Can I like get something to help me pwn stuff? thx"

I can see it being a bit insulting to a god to exchange an item. It's a divine gift given to you by a god. It's good for RP. Whether or not you can wear it. It was put in for RP. Not for twinking.
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Post by Mariela » Wed Feb 14, 2007 4:28 am

I have no idea what the different supplicate items are.

I am with Seleeve or whomever started this thread. I dont' really plan my character's around their religion. I think I have had ONE that was planned which faith, but not how she was going to end up there. Everything else I kinda go with the punches.

From an out of character perspective alone, there is no reason why the different classes couldn't have 1 of the supplicate items be triggered to their class. Personally, I'd put it at the level two or three, but that's just me. It would be a big deal for the God to spend that much effort to sort of give you a pretty niffty gift. I'd be in favor of it if someone went through and changed it.

However, here's my downside to it:

1) Code limitations. Because the system of supplicate for the most part is just as automated as a quest, do we really want to torture one of our poor over worked builders into something that really simplistic and set up that way on purpose so the IMM's don't have to moniter every single supplication?

2) I know I have in the past, gotten an item or two directly from the God. Having an item specific to my class in a automated supplication would sort of put more of a limiting factor on the IMM's and the renames. I dunno if I would want to give that up! Renames and getting random things like my pretty little glowing moonstone was just freaking AWESOME! And wether or not your God shows up now and again, I've seen some pretty nifty stuff that peopl ehave gotten without having to supplicate for it in the past. Getting those things are just sooooo cool to RP. Really.

3) I don't know if I have ever recieved something from a supplication yet that I did not find useful. Even wheN I lost my levels and couldnt' wear my cloak for awhile... and as i type this, still cant.... they are still really neat items and honestly, if they are a bit out of character for my character, the more fun they are to explain to others in RP.

I think we should honestly just leave it the way it is, and let the IMM's or whomever is running the God dejour decide if they want to spend the time to morph your item into something else. Or rename it, or whatever. I mean, the renames happen often enough that if your breastplate is a bit too unwieldy for your thief, pray to your god or wait until a holiday and see if the god will grace you with more happy and change it into something a bit more tame for you. (Pray hard!)
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Post by Selveem » Wed Feb 14, 2007 7:19 am

Mele wrote:"Hey <place god here> I uh. Really appreciate this divine gift. But uh. Can I like get something to help me pwn stuff? thx"

I can see it being a bit insulting to a god to exchange an item. It's a divine gift given to you by a god. It's good for RP. Whether or not you can wear it. It was put in for RP. Not for twinking.
Okay, again, I'm not really sure where you are on this 'twinking' suggestion. What we've suggested has absolutely nothing to do with twinking. There is far better armor/items in the game than most supplicated objects.

Okay, for the sake of arguement I will explain again and hopefully it is clearer this time:

Take Selveem for instance. Selveem is a devout follower of Tempus and will always stand up for him. Repeatedly he has had to test friendships/alliances due to sometimes even unintentional slights. Selveem has been the victim of Sune's wrath before and understands why Tempus finds her annoying (to him, mind you, I have plenty other characters that rather like Sune ;) ). Even the mention of 'beauty' or 'love' annoys him and he can easily be offended.

Such an event happened even today in the Undermountain where Selveem could easily have died but he would never back down when something he deems blasphemy is said carelessly..

AS such zealot, he has earned Tempus' favor and has been granted objects of his God.

Now, without going into IC specifics and unnecessary information, some of the supplicated items that a God/dess may hand down would be completely inappropriate for a character.

Please see post about "Heavy Armor" mages - mages do not need to be wearing platemail. SOME God/dess supplicated items are plate.

Now, if Selveem were an invoker of Tempus instead of a fighter - ICly I would WEAR the platemail simply because it did come from Tempus. Should I code-wise? Absolutely not.

I'm not sure how much clearer I can make this - I'm not, nor is Solaghar, proposing these items be overpowered. Just simply tailored for one's class so it CAN be worn.

Please, desist from your 'twinkish' claims and read what is actually being printed. If you do not understand something specific, I would be more than glad to explain it in detail for you.

As for code, this is simple. As a builder, it's just a matter of a couple if-checks, oload, etc. There are hundreds of quests in this game. These would be very easy to implement and would benefit not only current players, but future players.
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Post by Mariela » Wed Feb 14, 2007 7:43 am

If it isn't that big of a hassle, that would be pretty nice.
Like I said, I haven't run into a problem as of yet with not being able to wear my supplicated items, but if a mage can't wear plate and you are a mage.... that's kinda sad ain't it?

And I agree with S. It's not about twinking. It's about being able to have the oppurtunity to wear the holy object of your lord without worrying about it burning your scalp off cause you happen to be a mage and not the warrior that piece was intended for. If it's as simple as a check to be added to the code, why not?
Confusion heard his voice, and wild uproar Stood ruled, stood vast infinitude confined;
Till at his second bidding darkness fled, Light shone, and order from disorder sprung.
--John Milton
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Post by Saradin » Wed Feb 14, 2007 2:02 pm

Mele wrote:"Hey <place god here> I uh. Really appreciate this divine gift. But uh. Can I like get something to help me pwn stuff? thx"

I can see it being a bit insulting to a god to exchange an item. It's a divine gift given to you by a god. It's good for RP. Whether or not you can wear it. It was put in for RP. Not for twinking.
So are you saying anyone who wears supplicated items that they can actually use is twinking?

As Selveem said, no one is asking to be handed twinked out items to go out and smash things, what they are asking is that a supplicated gift from the God be ICly appropriate to the character.

To use Selveems example, a Tempurian wizard can run around wearing the blessed Breastplate given as a gift from on high...but it's more than likely going to result in him getting killed, repeatedly, as he can't properly cast spells and while wearing heavy armor. And the alternative is it gets stuffed away in a pack and forgotten about because it is of no use to the character at all, which rather defeats the whole purpose of getting such a divine token.
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Post by Dalvyn » Wed Feb 14, 2007 2:51 pm

Selveem wrote:As for code, this is simple. As a builder, it's just a matter of a couple if-checks, oload, etc. There are hundreds of quests in this game. These would be very easy to implement and would benefit not only current players, but future players.
Actually, this is not true. You fail to take some aspect into consideration.

First aspect. We have 33 deities (or is it 32?). Multiply that by 3 supplicated items and you get 99 items. Assume broadly that half of those items are ICly class-restricted in their usage, that's 50 items. Classify the followers broadly into 3 categories: cloth/light/heavy for armour, and simple (e.g., wizards) / more (e.g., priests/thieves) / all (e.g., warriors) for weapons. Adding quests to allow people to automatically change an object into something usable would thus mean adding 100 such quests (50 items are concerned, and for each of them, 2 alternatives would be needed). That's not what I would call "simple", and it's definitely more than just a couple if-checks and oload.

Second aspect. Assume that objects are can be given to mobs in exchange for other, better suited, items. How would the code know what supplicated items someone already has? Currently, it checks all worn items and if it finds the first supplicated item, it loads the second item. If it finds both the first and second item, it loads the third. And all this is made through hard-code. Now, if someone changes their second supplicated item - heavy armour - for some light armour, they won't register as having the second supplicated item anymore... and thus, would get it again next time they use supplicate object.
So, to make this work, it would be necessary to either modify the hard code (something that can't be done easily since only Mask can do that and his free time is limited). Or we would have to make even more quests (200-300 quests instead of the 100 indicated above) to make it possible for people to exchange their second supplicated objects into another supplicated object.

Third aspect. This is not easy to maintain. If supplicated items are changed at some point, all the related quests need to be changed as well. A change in the file with the supplicated items entails several changes in the quests. This kind of relations "if you change something here, you also need to update there and there" are better avoided.

End result is that it is very far from simple to make such a change. :)

Now, I recognize that it would be better and make more sense. How sucky and completely idiot is the god who would give his/her wizard follower a nice shining platemail armour.

I would suggest that specific cases where the supplicated items does not correspond to your class (as in: a weapon that you cannot learn to use, or a piece of armour that you shouldn't ICly wear) be reported to applications@forgottenkingdoms.com.

This is only my opinion, but I would be fine with the following changes:

a) change a piece of heavy armour made of metal to studded leather, made of leather - and keep the same enchantements

b) change a piece of heavy armour made of metal to "cloth" armour, made of silk - and keep the same enchantments

c) change a piece of leather armour made of metal to "cloth" armour,
made of silk - and keep the same enchantments

d) let followers of a god heavily associated with a weapon type learn to use that weapon type (as if they had learned the "weapon proficiency" feat to learn a new weapon-like skill)

e) change a weapon into another weapon of the same category, as long as this is not a weapon type closely associated to the deity (by same category, I mean that a dagger could become a mace or short sword, but not a long sword or a flail; and by closely associated to the deity, I would mean that Moradin's holy warhammers wouldn't be modified).

Obviously, those are just the ideas that come to mind right now, and that does in no way mean that the applications will be accepted.
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Post by Selveem » Wed Feb 14, 2007 3:40 pm

Hmm, I wasn't aware they got changed that often. I apologize. I didn't mean the code would check class upon supplication. I meant having the item worn while going to a specific mob that would see it and say 'hey, I have something more suitable for you.' Now that you have put it into perspective, I can understand how this may be a bit of work. I just felt it would be beneficial.

Dalvyn, thank you for your kind offer regarding having said armors of faith fitted for a specific class. I am sure there are plenty of people who are more than overjoyed to even hear this is a remote possibility even.
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Post by Mele » Wed Feb 14, 2007 5:36 pm

No. I'm not saying it would be twinking. But Sologhar's initial desire of this thread was to stop a form of twinking which would be people creating characters to follow deities based on their supp items. I would think changing it to make it so everyone gets an item they don't RP cherish, but use in battle would make the entire point of this thread moot, as Sologhar's original was saying people were being twinkesque choosing a god for their supps. I don't see how giving people items they can use in battle is fixing that. *shrug*
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Post by Selveem » Wed Feb 14, 2007 6:35 pm

Okay, you're right. Let's all remove all armor and weapons from the game completely. Any combat-like spells should be removed from the game as they have the capability of being twinked. Everyone should remain level 1 and any areas in the game that require any form of combat should be destroyed. Also, stats can be twinked too. Have everyone be a basic 10-11 as per the racial standard. Classes should all be destroyed in favor of adept and the like.

'Twinking' meaning powerful is a ridiculous concept. The world of Faerun is full of Heroes and Villians alike. Get over it.
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Post by Mariela » Wed Feb 14, 2007 6:50 pm

*throws a stone into a glass house*

Most D&D related games sort of exist on his power curve of must have a higher level or I will die. I have seen many upon many RPG's and not many really focus on just Role playing. I can name like....maybe two that have such rules that the sheet and dice are really irrelevant.

Some people like to power game. I don't think that they should be penalized because their goal in life is to have a level 45 character who is grandmastered in everything and can speak all the languages, ect. Who is obviously a follwer of Tempus *coughs* and will whip your backend sideways for looking at him. (Wait that'd be RP... just wip your backend.)

That's the way they roll. And honestly, so be it. Not my particular cup of tea. Which is why my highest level character is around 30.. mostly by accident. And is rather incompetent in terms of skills. I'm still learning what it takes to do things in the game.

However, back to my original point.. twinking is such a bad word in gaming, akin to swearing at someone in the most horrible fashion. (I'd demonstrate but people who know me in real life know what sort of phrase I am talking about. Not really appropriate by any means.) It is rather a sad thing that the first word that comes up in honest debate is, "That's so tweakish.." Now that I fully understand the supplicate problem, I agreed fully with Seleveen that it was kinda sad when the god is supposed to be at least half way paying attention to their followers to know that the thief doesn't need a shining breastplate.

And yes, I also agree with him that designing a character around a god can sometimes lead to problems. I have seen many people who come in saying, "I follow the God of Teacups!" and come to find out through RP that they are no where near the Teacup's faith. And yet, they wanna get in cause the amour stuff you can buy at the temple is really nifty and they kinda sort of fit into the dogma. But that's where the faith managers can come in and help push and prod that character into shape. That is where the other faithful can -help- rather than point fingers at the player and screech like a harpy, "TWIIIIIIIIIIIIIINk!"

Cause in the end, isnt' it about just RPing/Gaming and having fun?
Confusion heard his voice, and wild uproar Stood ruled, stood vast infinitude confined;
Till at his second bidding darkness fled, Light shone, and order from disorder sprung.
--John Milton
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Post by Saradin » Wed Feb 14, 2007 7:56 pm

Mele wrote:No. I'm not saying it would be twinking. But Sologhar's initial desire of this thread was to stop a form of twinking which would be people creating characters to follow deities based on their supp items. I would think changing it to make it so everyone gets an item they don't RP cherish, but use in battle would make the entire point of this thread moot, as Sologhar's original was saying people were being twinkesque choosing a god for their supps. I don't see how giving people items they can use in battle is fixing that. *shrug*
Well, I think it would help, simply because if all the Gods had class-appropriate equipment then there would be less impetus for "Man, I'm going to create a warrior of Tempus, he gives out l337 fighter supps."

But, as for the discussion, we have somewhat hijacked it from Solaghars initial point to a debate of the nature of supplicated items themselves.

I don't see how having a supplicated item be of use to you would make you cherish it less in RP terms. In the example of the Tempurian wizard, the "gift" given to him by his God would actually be dangerous for him to use, and if he's not using then it just becomes one of the one thousand and one sundry items people stuff in a pack or bag somewhere for sentimental reasons, which does not imply "cherished item" to me.
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Post by Mele » Thu Feb 15, 2007 5:00 am

Selveem wrote:Okay, you're right. Let's all remove all armor and weapons from the game completely. Any combat-like spells should be removed from the game as they have the capability of being twinked. Everyone should remain level 1 and any areas in the game that require any form of combat should be destroyed. Also, stats can be twinked too. Have everyone be a basic 10-11 as per the racial standard. Classes should all be destroyed in favor of adept and the like.

'Twinking' meaning powerful is a ridiculous concept. The world of Faerun is full of Heroes and Villians alike. Get over it.
If you read back further in the thread, you will find that I was greatly disagreeing with Sologhar in his belief that people twink out choosing gods for their supps.

I thought you had been following this entire thread. Apparently what I was saying isn't making sense to you. My point is, Sologhar's original desire to discuss was the idea that people where chosing gods based on their supp items, and therein twinking. I'm not sure how changing it this way is part of what the original purpose of the thread is, or what justice that does to the supposed twinking involved in choosing a deity before creation.
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Post by Selveem » Thu Feb 15, 2007 5:53 am

Personally, I think you don't even understand what 'twinking' is if you think just picking a specific God/dess based on beneficial armors/weapons/items they grant upon supplication. That, Mele, is called metagaming, not twinking. If you would like a literal definition, I would suggest you go ahead and read the following as provided by Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twinking - as you notice, this has nothing whatsoever to do with metagaming. I would instead direct you to the following link instead: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metagaming - either way, I think you have made this term quite trite and past the point of insulting to many players. Please think about what you are posting before you post it.
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Post by Mele » Thu Feb 15, 2007 5:55 am

Mele wrote:If you read back further in the thread, you will find that I was greatly disagreeing with Sologhar in his belief that people twink out choosing gods for their supps.

Once again. This topic is meant to be about the twinking in choosing gods for their supps. Once again. I disagree that it's twinking. Once again, Sologhar made the thread, not me.
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Post by Kelemvor » Thu Feb 15, 2007 1:45 pm

This discussion seems to have departed from its original intent somewhat. In addition... Along the way, some posters seem to have begun to take offence at the comments posted by others.

If you have nothing positive to add to the discussion, say nothing.

If you feel a user has misunderstood your previous posts, use PMs to resolve the concern not the open forums.

I do not want to see back and forth comments in the form of... "he said", "she said", "if you read it properly", "if you knew what that term actually meant".

Initially Solaghar proposed changes to the faith items available on supplication.
It has been noted as to why that might prove difficult to achieve, but a compromise has been offered for those who find their supplicated items do not fit with their class.

His proposals were based on the theory that players were using game knowledge to drive their RP, he felt that this detracted from the gameplay.
Many players with access to greater game knowledge than others use this knowledge to adapt, adjust or even to further their gameplay.

Selecting a God because of the supplicated items they give, choosing a faith because of the prayers you will gain access to, picking a wizard guild because of the spells and/or trainers you will gain access too. All of these things could be equally termed metagaming or twinking.

Can I suggest that we all stick to the debate as posted and not the merits of the debate or the reasons for debating it and certainly not to the point of insulting a poster who merely expressed an opinion contrary to yours.
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Post by Cret » Wed Feb 21, 2007 12:30 am

Ive been thinking on this for some time and have come up with a possible solution:

Im a Priest of the Lord Boofoo.

I have suplicated for all 3 items

1) A whims gidget - a mace
2) A dunce cap - a piece of armor
3) A Megaphone - Special Item used to be irritating

Wow.. I can use my the latter 2 however.. Im a goblin mage. I cant use maces! Oh noes!

I however, being loved in my faith again, can ask for divine intervention and have that 'whims gidget' turned into a 'prong sproket' or a dagger...

Now, this does not mean new items are created it gives us something to do with favor later in game, IF you are willing to ask your god for it.
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