Experience

Saradin · Post by **Saradin** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 7:40 am

"Well, I do need to practice my new spells, would you like to join me? Perhaps we could accomplish something together"

I do that anyway

While my various wizard chars can generally handle the bandits themselves, I've only ever tried to solo an actual area once, and got killed for my trouble.

But that's my point, the new xp system to me would seem to discourage RP within a group simply because if you want to make any kind of progress you don't have time for anything but KILL! KILL! KILL!.

but then again... if you WERE going to spend the next 3 hours killing a mob just to level up magic missile... Mystra would be VERY upset with you and the abuse of the weave...

I was referring to gaining the xp necessary to get the spell from the trainer. Though I don't see how that would be 'abuse of the weave', any more than a fighter going out and 'kicking' a lot of mobs is abuse of his training. Using them on mobs and practicing them at a trainer (which requires xp gained from killing mobs anyway) are how you raise skills.

Aliatris · Post by **Aliatris** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 12:58 pm

I think that if we just had a noticeable effect in training in groups all would be better, and if that multiplier were different to different members of the group. all would be alright (No matter how many are in your party if you are level 40 and you are killing rabbits, also there should be a maximum in the multiplier to avoid powerleveling)

With the current experience system, casually leveling it is history, if we have to rescue a corpse in a deep dungeon the experience we get while doing it will be barely noticeable, so if a character wants IC improve his abilities or his combat prowess mostly will be in the same area for hours killing mobs. By making people be grouped the RP all will be better overall.

Tortus · Post by **Tortus** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 5:07 pm

I've just spent two days killing vermin to get from level 1 to 9, to be able to walk around town without collapsing (which I still am on the brink of doing), so I apologise if this comes off as a bit harsh.

This new system with minimal xp gains is hell for me, a player uninterested in training.

Since I started coming to this great roleplay environment two years ago, I've seen change after change implemented to make developing characters more and more difficult. Now I've largely given up any hopes I may have had in the beginning of mastering a skill, for instance. I was fully content with having everything at apprentice or journeyman, I hadn't the energy to try and become the best. All I could ask for was to reach a high enough level for my characters to be able to get around without having to stop every five minutes.

From what I read now though, that seems to have been improper RP. Apparently I was supposed to have sat down, because it wouldn't have been in character to travel that distance without ever having rested.

If this indeed is the official cause of the change, I would like to report another imbalance. I am able to walk my character from Waterdeep to Zhentil Keep in less than 24 hours game-time. Might I suggest increasing the lag from room to room to an hour or three, to reflect the time one would realistically need to scale a distance of thirty miles?

I'm spazzing out and going on a rant here, so I'll try to cut it short. It's been said before and I'd like to say it again. We come here to escape reality and real life.

This game used to be fun all the time. I'm not saying I don't think it's fun at all now, because then there'd be no sense in me staying. I still enjoy the great RP, but it's getting harder and harder. Reducing XP gains to make people roleplay with camp fires..? Wouldn't that be forced RP, even if it's realistic? I've read posts by people positive to the change because they think it's fun roleplay. Well, there was nothing preventing it before, was it?

Seems a bit to me like the game is having these changes because "we" (the players) want rules and code for things we could do just as well without, if we just took the time.

I don't mind staying once in a while when I'm guiding a lowbie around, but having to do so all the time because I can't level up? Meh, I don't know. It just doesn't sit right with me. My two cents, I still really like this game.

Hm, well... Obviously, I wasn't able to cut it short.

Peace.

Kelemvor · Post by **Kelemvor** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 5:36 pm

Just to clarify this as the thread seems to be getting a little out of hand

There has been no imposed change to the experience gain set-up. A bug was fixed which related to the challenge rating of some mobs. Previously it was giving anything up to 20 times more exp than was intended.

If in fixing this first bug other issues have come to light with the challenge rating and exp giving then they will be addressed as soon as Mask has time.

Rather than shout indignantly about how the game is being nerfed or spoiled, wait for definitive answers to questions raised. Thus far, most of this thread has been one poster feeding on the comments of another until you've all worked yourselves up into a lather.

The original question received an answer and Japcil posted further that he would ask Mask to qualify any changes and respond to the concerns about the resultant exp problems.

I would suggest that you all wait patiently for that information.

Tortus · Post by **Tortus** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 5:37 pm

O.

Well, then. Never mind. >.>

Dalvyn · Post by **Dalvyn** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 7:28 pm

Better take a short break and breathe deeply.

The experience situation is being discussed and several solutions are considered, so the current situation might change. It's kind of hard to get the numbers right immediately and the only way to find a good setting is... to test various settings.

A few of the options that are being discussed: making some underused stats grant bonuses to experience gains, changing the amount of move points characters have, introducing solutions to allow people to learn skills without having to spend experience on it, ...

Note that the slowing down of experience gain might have some advantages too.

- A first advantage would be to make those lower level spells and levels more useful. Currently (or rather in the recent past), the first levels (first being between 1 and 20) were all amalgamated into one big category "low level", and leveling up did not make you feel as if you were really accomplishing something.

- A second advantage is that it makes "reward" much more useful, whether they come from an imm or from another character. With that in mind, it is not true that you now have to "kill kill kill" to progress... being seen roleplaying and being rewarded for it becomes a valid alternative. (Though I agree that it would be better if imms spent more time watching and rewarding roleplays... but things are already better in that matter than they used to be).

For now, better be patient and see if the current situation is really that terrible.

Algon · Post by **Algon** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 8:24 pm

I really like the idea of "reward" being more useful. That would give alot of people a good incentive to RP a little more instead of continually killing all the time. I understand that this is a RP enforced game. But leveling skills and character levels is also a big part of it. It is not exactly good rp to play your character as a powerful priest of your Deity if you cannot go past level 20 and barely able to do a decent "cure light".

Dalvyn · Post by **Dalvyn** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 8:45 pm

I agree... I never said that people should roleplay being more powerful than they actually are code-wise. I also agree that increasing skills and levelling up are important (I actually think that the problem is that training is the only way to achieve that currently, but that's another debate). Slowing down the levelling rate actually gives you the opportunity to roleplay that part of your life where cure light is more than you need... while before, you did not have the time or the opportunity to roleplay that.

Maybel · Post by **Maybel** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 10:27 pm

I am right next to you Dal... I agree 100%... but...

Could we at least slow it down after level 10? We can't do a lot of quests tell level 10... like the Express Deliveries... What RP can you offer when you are below level 10? Not much... killing rats and spiders, in the sewers is about all you got.

EDIT: Re-reading it... i guess i don't agree 100%... maybe like.... 95%

Raona · Post by **Raona** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 1:09 am

Saradin wrote:Ehmm, I'm not sure we're talking about the same. We're referring to a change in xp that came in just about a week ago. I dunno if it would be possible for you character to "grow up" in that time.

Quite possible that I haven't experienced what you are describing...in which case, my apologies, I can't speak on it with any authority!

Are there others who have actually experienced this, and care to comment on it?

Leohand · Post by **Leohand** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 5:46 pm

I have a level ten character, and I spent hours yesterday, before the error, and an hour today, in the sewers of waterdeep, and my experience only went from two thirds to the next level to three quarters. That's a bit excessive.

Japcil · Post by **Japcil** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 5:59 pm

After words from dalvyn this is unlocked. But please keep it a constructive discussion and not complain just suggest that it be changed and how you would change it.

Shabanna · Post by **Shabanna** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 4:44 am

Leohand wrote:I have a level ten character, and I spent hours yesterday, before the error, and an hour today, in the sewers of waterdeep, and my experience only went from two thirds to the next level to three quarters. That's a bit excessive.

You learn from your success and are now a master at Profession(exterminator)

*snicker* I am teasing...I was just thinking... that the things in the sewer were like rats and creepy crawlers and stuff, got all giggly and had to share!

Shaaaaaa~banna

Lerytha · Post by **Lerytha** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 1:56 pm

Okay, I'm not sure exactly about whether exp has been reduced. If the imms say it hasn't then obviously it hasn't. But the fact remains that actually we are a roleplay-enforced MUD, not a MUSH. That means that the levelling rat-run actually does play a fairly important role.

That is not to say that we should run around hack'slashin', but something in this discussion is worrying me ever so slightly. People have been (unintentionally I am sure and I am pointing no fingers) stamped on just for pointing out that they are not levelling up as fast as they used to. In response, people have been told, "Well, just RP in between" which is a fair enough observation (we are an RP-enforced MUD after all). However, at the same time, we play characters in a game so they can improve, so they can grow stronger and so that they can become a great hero. Not alone, not through hogging the glory or whatever, but through quests and RP.

In this discussion I won't actually come down on either side because I am a firm believer in compromise between both "sides" as it were (and even splitting it into "sides" is actually counter-productive). I will however say, that quite often I have seen discussions where newer people are talking about the difficulty of levelling and that (generally) older people reply by saying "well, I had to do that" or "well it is an RP MUD" or any swiftly-automated response that actually makes the younger, newer players feel as if they are not being listened to. I understand that is not anyone's intention in this thread. And yes, its good that we keep these discussions constructive rather than destructive quite so often.

Someone saying that they think they are levelling up too slowly is not automatically a bad point of view. The desire to level and kill mobs is not automatically a sign of twinkhood. The hope to become a powerful fighter/cleric/mage/rogue is not a deplorable sin.

So, if it has become markedly difficult, in the eyes of newer players, to level up, so much so that they have actually felt the need to post about it and actually say it makes their enjoyment less, then there is obviously something to be looked at. This is not a criticism against anyone. I am aware things are being discussed, which is brilliant. I am just writing a defence for people to be able to champion the cause of easier-levelling without being deemed a twink.

I am also championing the right for people to ask people to RP more and level up less, just so people understand I'm not taking sides.

Anyway, most of this is unclear I am sure. If this post provokes any outrageous argument or tension I will post a more lucid, better-written something so people can actually know better what I mean.

Basically:

- lets not split ourselves into two groups
- lets not automatically decry opinions
- lets not fall into the trap of thinking that easier levelling cheapens hard-working older characters
- lets not fall into any traps actually and if we do, bring a thief to fix them.

That's all, happy MUDing

~Ol

Leohand · Post by **Leohand** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 4:25 pm

I am leveling a wizard character. and it took nearly 6 hours training to get enough experience to go from level ten to level eleven, and that's just awful. How am I supposed to learn all these new spells unless I never stop training? As is, if I want to do anything at all with my character, I have no time to rp much. Maybe for warriors with a few skills and greater combat prowess that's fine, but I have to constantly stop to regain my energy and meditate to recover my spells, and that is time-consuming. I agree that it was too easy for warriors to lefvel up before, but I wasn't complaining, because, well, I knew just about any change made to prevent 'twinking' would hurt the wizard class emmensely.

Tempus · Post by **Tempus** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 7:25 pm

Perhaps you could consider 'adventuring' as part of a group, rather than running about bashing mobs against the clock...

(Not to say thats exactly what you do, but its the impression you are giving with your posts on this thread).

Dalvyn · Post by **Dalvyn** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 7:33 pm

Always a good suggestion. We know that it's not the perfect solution and that it is not enough, but it's always a good idea to train as part of a group.

Plus, there is a bonus to the amount of experience you gain when you are in a group.

Algon · Post by **Algon** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 7:39 pm

Dalvyn wrote:Always a good suggestion. We know that it's not the perfect solution and that it is not enough, but it's always a good idea to train as part of a group.

Plus, there is a bonus to the amount of experience you gain when you are in a group.

Not to mention that it is way more fun to adventure with a group then it is to just run around and bash orcs or something for hours alone.

Maybel · Post by **Maybel** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 8:23 pm

I agree... take a group... but even then... it took 20 hours of game time (with rp) to get to level 10... and i struggled to get there. It is a bit extensive... I have no complaints dramatically reducing the gain once you get past a level... but those early stages when your trying to learn the basic spells/skills... it makes it... not really fun... Your struggling to get to a point where you could RP with the character...

Lukon · Post by **Lukon** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 9:54 pm

I would like to state that adventuring as a group is, of course, preferable.

But I do resent the implication that 'bashing mobs' is some sort of forbidden practice. Especially considering that bashing mobs is the key way to make your character stronger. And with this XP change, I expect that at least one of my alts is going to put in some serious 'mob-bashing' time, for a number of reasons.

1) Not everyone can engage in RP with everyone who's on, for IC reasons or simply being unable to find them. Moreso, sometimes very few people are online at certain hours.

2) Even as things stand, there is a massive gap between the power levels of veteran characters and relative newbies. If certain heroes or villians are just plain insurmountable in a straight fight at your current strength, training seems like a natural option. Making it harder to level may just exacerbate the issue.

3) People want to be stronger. They want to be the coolest this, or the best at that, or have a rivalry with Blah without losing every round. I don't think there's anything wrong with someone dedicating SOME of their personal time to bashing mobs for cash and experience.