Proposal for an OOC meeting to discuss evil RP on FK

Solaghar · Post by **Solaghar** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 2:45 am

I would like to propose that concerned members of the staff, the Player Council and anyone with an evil character who would like to attend have a constructive meeting focusing on how to improve the quality of evil roleplay on FK; to discuss options for how evil people can contribute to the game in a positive manner while still being evil.

Some topics which I, personally would like to discuss would be how evil people can get involved in the large roleplays in an appropriate manner. How evil people can interact with one another and with non-evils in a manner which benefits the game while still allowing people to roleplay their characters appropriately. I want to discuss that evil players can be a positive force improving the roleplay of everyone on the game; that a well-RPed evil character can contribute as much to the game as a well-RPed good character if we're given the chance to do so. I hope that the staff of both immortals and PC members will consider speaking with any evil people who have something to say and who feel like we can have a much larger positive role if we're just given the chance.

I would propose an IRC meeting or something similar, to be mediated by Mask if he's willing, or someone on the staff who considers themselves impartial to the matter as a whole who can set topics for debate and hold people to calm and rational discourse. This isn't going to be some forum for complaining or attacking anyone on any side, but a chance to give everyone a moment to appraise their position on the matter and try to help evil people determine what should be going on with their RP. In the end the goal would be to be able to make some recommendation as to how evil RP should proceed in the future, whether it should be altered in any large way or perhaps discontinued if it's determined that it's truly harmful to the game as a whole and detracts from the ability of other people to roleplay. If both a number of admins and players agree that this is a good idea and worth discussing then we can work out a date and time and place to meet.

Telk · Post by **Telk** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 3:05 am

I entirely agree with you Solaghar. I think that a meeting would be a very good thing to figure out where evil RP is going, and what can be changed to make it enjoyable for both sides. This way we know what is considered 'acceptable' for evil RP and what is not. I also think it would be a good time to hear some of the complaints that the evils on the MUD may have.

I often find myself excluded from major RP's that I would very much like to participate in. IMO evils add a lot of spice to the game, and it isn't just 'Haha, I'm evil. Look at my sword, now I kill you.'

Selveem · Post by **Selveem** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 3:18 am

I don't really have any evil characters. I mean, I do but they're too low level to really be doing anything 'evil' other than spreading the seed of distrust and hatred.

I would, however, like to participate anyhow. I have a two characters that flirt with both sides and I suppose even that should be enough to participate in said discussion. As long as it meets a time I can be here, I'd be more than willing to listen and give any input I am able on the matter.

Shabanna · Post by **Shabanna** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 3:36 am

Hm, though I tend to agree that It can never hurt to get people together to combine ideas...

I would also like to say that I have personally seen some excellent evil RP and some amazing ... yet very secretive plots get played to the hilt by a few Incredible evils most of whom play on a regular basis, for the time being. As a matter of fact in the past year I have seen many evil plots ( not dealing with Pkill at all) put into play that were not only well done but incredibly clever and intriguing...

Just because there is not a bunch of echoes or fanfare...like the golden goodies get does not mean that the plots that were cleverly crafted through private meetings, silent tells or unsigned letters sent through the post and pulled off in secret were not evil

the point being...that... the evils do not need to be so blatant and "in-your-face" as the goodies can be about the wickedness that they create XD Just because you do not hear trumpets playing and " The evils have banded together and are now bashing down the gates of waterdeep" does not mean there is NO evil RP *grin*

I'd say as long as the Imms are open to it its a good thing. I would be there for my "not so goodies" ( evil is such a harsh LABEL... maybe we should use... goodness challenged?)

lol

edited: for clarification 2/24/07

Maybel · Post by **Maybel** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 5:06 am

I would like to propose, because I don't and am not able to have an IRC client, to have it on the chat section that Mask has set up on the website. If it is alright with Mask. That way it is available to ANYONE who plays not just those who have IRC.

I would find it quite helpful to have it discussed with everyone. I have no evil characters, I have tried to... but it is just not in my nature to be evil... I find it hard not just RP... but to get INTO the character... but i am fully open to discuss it.

Good idea indeed!

Japcil · Post by **Japcil** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 5:17 am

Why not do it on the game port in limbo? Didn't we do that before for the thieves discussion a few years back?

Maybel · Post by **Maybel** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 5:25 am

Japcil wrote:Why not do it on the game port in limbo?

Oh... I like that idea better! Ease of use and less windows open!

Glim · Post by **Glim** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 7:15 am

It sounds like a fine idea. I have quite a few evils. If I can, I will be there. Either chat or in game works for me.

Aliatris · Post by **Aliatris** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 4:21 pm

Sounds like an excellent idea

Zuldere · Post by **Zuldere** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 7:09 pm

I like the idea as well if nothing else it may help others if they want to make a evil as well as my evil char to know if I am doing alright oir should change a bit in his rp.

Grom · Post by **Grom** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 7:36 pm

Im in for it!

Yzelle · Post by **Yzelle** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 9:17 pm

Selveem wrote:I don't really have any evil characters. I mean, I do but they're too low level to really be doing anything 'evil' other than spreading the seed of distrust and hatred.

Why is this not sufficiently evil?

A statement like this makes it sound like "I'm not strong enough to pkill anyone, so I can't really do anything "evil".

If anything, this is the attitude that comes under fire as far as "evil" RP goes. Being strong enough to bully, or provoke others to a pkill situation is not being evil, that's just being an arse. And the two do not mean the same thing. I see evil in the sense of the classic villain. The diabolical, scheming, plotter who works to subvert and divide, who if a situation requires some amount of muscle has themselves surrounded by handymen to do the job for her. And it rarely involves taking of life, or acting like a homicidal maniac (even the worst bond villain rarely would actually soil their hands in personal combat to try and defeat 007, "You want me to talk?" "No, Mr. Bond, I expect you to DIE!" as the laser beam slowly inches toward the hero shackled to the table). Modern-day media villains are too blatent, and basically bully the hero and spend all their time beating them up or shooting at them or slicing at them with a sword. So the younger populace lacks a sufficient number of decent evil role models to model themselves by... a pity.

Point is, you can have very successful, VERY damaging plots to hit a hero where it hurts without ever typing "murder", or without ever goading them into doing the same. Pkill just results in the person being brought back. Destroy their pride, or leave them broken and poor, or without their most cherished possessioon, or simply catch them being OOCly stupid and turn it around into an IC disaster, it stays with your target much MUCH longer

Selveem · Post by **Selveem** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 2:44 am

No... meaning he's a low level priest who can't even curse/poison water.

Most of his useful 'tricks' aren't available to him yet.

Aliatris · Post by **Aliatris** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 3:21 pm

Selveem wrote:No... meaning he's a low level priest who can't even curse/poison water. Most of his useful 'tricks' aren't available to him yet.

I think that you are wrong if you think than an evil must rely on their spells or physical power to be evil, there is nothing as powerful as a well
placed lie or a thoughtful plan that involves others without noticing them that you are using them for your benefit, that is more powerful that any 9th level spell that you can cast, the idea of a uber character bulling others just because he has a high level and is "evil" is quite sad.

Zuldere · Post by **Zuldere** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 5:41 pm

I agree pking is the last thing my char even thinks about. As yet I have never been in a fight that ended in a pk and that includes all my char and at most I have been playing here at lest 2+ years. There is so much more to being evil than just going around killing people. There are the plots the simple comments to one in the square. Being evil is limited by ones own rp.

Daediana · Post by **Daediana** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 12:36 am

Well Yzelle maybe this meeting is a good idea then... I mean maybe a lot of people don't realize that it is ok to be weak and still evil. I mean I was tormenting people when I was a level 20! You can be evil and weak... So maybe this ooc meeting would allow for us to gain some people... Plus you guys... if you want rp with evils we need evils to rp with. The ganging up force the good people have really kick us in the butt and we dont bother cause there is no point... so if we get together and help some people out in ooc ways perhaps we could build more on the good vs evil rps and stuff

Yzelle · Post by **Yzelle** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 4:04 am

This is provided that said collaboration between the evils is IC in and of itself. Here is the rub, that there are rivalries supported both by canon and by in-game events that need to be paid mind to when we deicide who we work hand in hand with...

I have seen in the past, for example, Maskarran being buddy-buddy, or even kissy-kissy with Cyrists, and it makes me cringe. It makes me wonder whether either party realizes the emnity between the two faiths. Intrigue, deception and one thing, but when you come to the point of bringing glory to a rival faith, even IF both faiths are evil, you are violating the best interests of your own faith.

And naturally, evils are selfish, self-serving, it IS the nature of the evil alignment spectrum when you look at the help files on the evil alignments. Rarely will it be good will that would motivate collaboration between two or more evil organizations, or sometimes even within the same organization, depending on your church or organizations' dogmas. Think any differently, and you're being very naive.

Does this mean there can be no collaboration between the evils at all? No... but it needs to be done with the perspective in mind of whether two evil groups actually WOULD do such a thing. One of the rich qualities about the Forgotten Realms universe, is it is NOT just a black and white, good vs. evil world. It is faction vs. faction, faith vs. faith. Evil vs. evil RP, and good vs. good, can be just as intriguing and fun, or even more so!
And to be quite frank, the minute you start talking ganging up, you're coming right back around to PvP and pkill. My base argument was that you often don't have to raise a single blade to destroy lives, to extort, to rise to the top of the heap, even when you're still a lowbie, or mid-level character. One of my favorite sayings for evil RP is "man was not meant to live by the sweat of his brow, but the by the brain behind it."

Selveem · Post by **Selveem** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 4:56 pm

I would just like to explain what I meant by my earlier post. It seems some people are confused as to what I was talking about. As part of an evil, many times bribery for specific deeds are required - especially when tempting the faith of others. At low level, it is extremely difficult (I.E. below level 10 even, that's how low level my evils are).

Skills, spells, items, and in-game wealth should be considered props. At low level, your access to these is extremely limited - especially as an evil since, as you stated already, evils are often by nature greedy and selfish - less likely to give anything.

It is much easier to RP once you're at least level 20 and able to at least provide for yourself. Self-reliance is a very key factor as an Evil and if you are forced to rely on others your "power" will only last as long as you can stand.

Please be careful when making accusations such as intention to PVP or PKill - these are often seen as insulting since they are explicitly against the rules of the game we all play.

Even though the help file for 'help pkill' states PVP is legal, it then explains that pkilling is not legal unless in character (thus, it is not actually PVP).

Mele · Post by **Mele** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:04 pm

Two words: Mental Torment. :)

Pain pays, tell your friends.

Kirkus · Post by **Kirkus** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 7:20 pm

Perhaps thats one thing that needs to be discussed whenever this discussion happens. The difficulties faced by low level evil characters and how to deal with it.

Some solutions I would propose: More evil areas, more evil hometowns. Go buy or at least look at a FR campaign setting, there are tons of towns and areas we don't have yet. Many of these could easily serve as either low leve evil training grounds or a starting town.

One of my biggest problems is training. Its hard because of this question, since I am evil is it ok to kill goblins and what not, other non-human creatures that are evil? Now I get favour for killing somethings but I am afraid that sometimes I might be lowering my hidden alignment at the same time.