Sharess

[Mariela]

nd the results of a Google search are hardly conclusive evidence of anything, if you put in "leather harness", which I believe are in the game for horses, you'll get very similar results to what Shabanna posted.

To be honest, Shabanna did what any parent would do if they were paying attention to what their teenager was playing and they were curious. She thew the exact description into a search engine and looked to see what would come up. Kudos. Unlike most parents we are going to deal with if they are pissed, she is at least reasonable and pointed it out.

As for the "leather harness" it is most certainly not on a horse when -I- have seen it. Is it for a horse? You tell me.

I actually feel very offended that you believe that just because I am an adult and that is the first thing that came to my mind when I saw someone wearing something entitled 'a daring leather body harness' that the first leap of logic I made was a something for a BDSM lifestyle, THEN followed by like a coroner's apron for torture devices...

And today, I imagined leather leaderhosen, or whatever it's called.

Just because I am an adult and I have seen and read extensively and have seen many printed descriptions because I am an avid reader does not mean that I cannot play in a PG-13 game. It means I am probably more prone to agree with people like Shabanna who want to be as careful as possible. If we agree that a sensual goddess is a not a good idea in such a setting, fine. I disagree but fine. However, there is a certain point where there are other things that come into question for the -same- reason. Blaming others for their "adult" thinking and using that against them is just.... dirty fighting. Why? Because I dared to say, "Well if people are offended, find a better word for what you are trying to describe than harness?" Just the very idea is just horrible, I know! It must be so adult, I recommended a thesaurus.

No offense to you Saradin. However, I think your opinion that adults cannot play in a place that is PG-13 is so very wrong and actually borderling on age descrimination. Just because we do not want bubble gum gaming and maybe a gun or two, so to speak, does not mean we want sexual contact throughout the streets. We were looking at something that -could- be seen a problem. Hence, discussing it. What you basically said to my eyes.. seemed to say that just because I am not 14 I should get my tail end out of here cause obviously I cannot control my rampant mind!

By the way Saradin, I adore you right now. I am so glad you said it. Cause I am so tired of people thinking it, and not saying the little things they want to say in their back of their mind on these sort of discussions. I may hate the opinion but I adore the person who said them. Thanks.

[Cret]

Your doing searches on a harness.. Edward Sizzorhand wore a harness. Nothing kinky there. Construction workers wear harnesses. Nothing there. Is it perhaps that it belongs to the Lovite faith that this is being discussed?


Oh, and if anyone is interested:


This demon is a succubus. It is said that succubi often take the appearance
of stunningly beautiful female humanoids to lure men into demonic orgies. She has large bat wings and sinister glowing eyes.


That might be better to discuss then a harness

[Saradin]

Where did I say that adults shouldn't be allowed to play a PG-13 game? I'm 24 years old myself, and BDSM gear would probably be the first thing I thought of when I saw a "daring black leather body harness" too, what I was pointing out is that it would primarily be adults who would make that kind of connection though, not children. And my "leather harness" example, which do exist in the game for horses (I dunno about people), was just to point out that there are otherwise harmless things that could lead to unexpected results on a search engine for a curious underage player.

But there is a marked difference between a piece of equipment, and someone who is roleplaying being a follower of a Goddess whose primary interest is sensual pleasure. And if you remove that aspect of it to keep to the PG-13 rating, then I don't see the point in playing a follower of Sharess, because as I and others have mentioned, everything else in her portfolio can be just as easily accomodated worshipping Sune or Lliira.

That said, I do so enjoy being adored.

[Lukon]

I would just like to chip in that, in a game where there's personal bath-houses, healing brothels, IC seduction on a fairly regular basis, and even RPs for the consequences thereof, it's kind of silly to ban a goddess just because sensuality is one of her defining points.

Sex is in FK. It's there, it keeps mostly to itself, and tries not to rile the neighbors. And I would argue that a competent follower of Sharess knows there's more to life than sexuality...but that doesn't mean you can't tease, quietly pull consenting folk aside, while maintaining the established OOC limits of gameplay.

[Talos]

And I would argue that a competent follower of Sharess knows there's more to life than sexuality...

I, actually, would argue -your- point here. Here is a look at Sharess' dogma:

"Life is to be lived to its fullest, in decadent sensual fulfillment of yourselves and others. That which is good is pleasurable and that which is pleasurable is good. Pleasure is to be sought out at every opportunity and life is to be lived as one endless revel. Spread the bounty of Sharess so that all may join in the endless revel of life and bring joy to all those in pain. Infinite experiences await those who would explore, so try the new as well as savoring the old."

The point here is not the sexual, but the carnal. Her dogma, as well as the remainder of the source material on Sharess, all agree on one thing: Carnal pleasures are ALL they are interested in, which includes the sexual. None of the information on Sharess points to anything even remotely close to adventuring. At least, in the case of Sune, who shares some aspects with Sharess, there is a call to adventure: acquiring items of beauty, and also to travel to protect those items. In the case of Llira, the happiness sought in this instance is one of innocence and joy, and as far as adventuring, they would act as a bannerman/woman, of sorts, as the core of a company's morale.

A line needs to be drawn somewhere. Considering that Sharess makes no exceptions for the spirit of adventuring, which is kind of the point of FK, I see no reason why a follower can't be diverted to either Sune or Llira. This is not "The Sims: Faerun Flings".

[Lukon]

You make a good point, but in the dogma you even listed, there's various reasons for a Sharessan to adventure.

Bring joy to those in pain.

Infinite experiences await those who would explore.

And while decadent and sensual can certainly be sexual, it can also be getting drunk and carousing and dancing and singing and going through life with innuendo abounding.

I just find it an odd sticking point, to toss the entire faith into the 'sex, sex, sex' category, when 1)sexuality is alive and well in FK, 2)It can be responsibly handled and WILL be in players follow the rules, and 3)There's more to even a Sharessan's life than just sex. And that's true of a believer of ANY faith. Not everyone's a zealot.

[Talos]

Time to counter-point.

1) Bringing joy to those in pain may illicit travelling, but it does not constitute as adventuring, per se.

2) That clip is a bit out of context when by itself. I am fairly confident that the terms "Experiences" and "Explore" are not not being used in the sense that you're claiming.

I guess my argument now stands at this: Why put effort into an unnecessary deity? Most of what Sharess stands for, though dulled down in FR, and CERTAINLY played down in FK, is covered by Sune (Coded) and Llira (Uncoded). I would much rather see work being made to bring in racial pantheons, for example. Finally, followers of Clangeddin Silverbeard or Labelas Enoreth or Flandal Steelskin and other followers of uncoded racial deities can have some of the same benefits as those who follow the myriad human deities That is, of course, another topic altogethe, but that is my point, and also my personal opinion: there are more useful deities that could be given the attention and effort.

[Lukon]

To defend my points briefly:

1) Dogma can be interpreted in many ways by many believers, and I could easily see a 'heroic knight' of Sharess rescuing damsels and slaying dragons, to give towns an excuse to throw one holy heck of a party as his 'reward.' Sharess is a Chaotic Good deity, after all.

2) I accept that the clip is out of direct context, but most of the Dogma sections in Faiths and Pantheons follow that format, with each sentence being a separate, but central belief. I don't think they all have to tie together, and I also believe that the definition of 'experiences' and 'explore' is subject to many interpretations, not all of them sexual.

As far as your current standing argument: I agree that certainly the time and effort of coders and IMMs can and should be focused on more central and useful deities to the PCs as a whole. But this is no justification to categorically cut out religions. I mean, the entire drow culture is inimical to non PKill RP with a good section of the game, but they persist (seemingly happy) in their own little corner of FK.

I will add that I have no immediate plans to make a Sharessan. I would just argue that one existing in FK as it stands wouldn't rock the boat nearly as much as people seem to think.

EDIT: And with that, I bow out of the argument, because I really don't want this to back-and-forth and get people riled and angry. It's not why I play.

[Shabanna]

I just want to say three things...

1. I never said... that LOVITES were being nasty with their RP ...I only listed the item and gave a link (BTW i did not search around around on the net... i just entered it directly as a search using the exact name of the object) I want to be clear here .. that if i had a beef with a particular player's RP I would have sent a letter to complaints. I have none. My post was about an ITEM not a PERSON. I in no way wanted people to think I was saying that SomeONE did something wrong!!!!!!!! Please stop turning it into that???

2. I NEVER asked to CODE Sharess I think that would be outrageous...lol My original post was about a single , very detailed, very well planned RP app, by a player who has been around for a while with no strikes and no repremands for sex RP. This App would have been for a Sharessan priestess... to go along VERY closely with the bringing in of an area. That is all! Somewhere along the line that was lost and I wanted to clarify. ( because it looks like you are arguing about having her coded that is NOT what I asked initially nor what I want )

I am sure there are players who if this was a coded deity...might not be able to handle keeping their RP within the confines of the help sex rules... just as there ARE players who are not able to do that with OTHER types of mature RP that are left for interpretation. ( i.e Alt sex, Marriage, and romantic and relationship RP...)

3. I am not trying to have everything taken out of the game I am trying to point out what I feel is a bit of a double standard about the whole PG 13 thing >.< sorry I think that was misunderstood too.


I am deeply sorry to anyone who thought my post was about RP It was not at all!!!! and I am sorry if I hurt anyones feelings. ( okay that was four things.. lol I am gonna shut up now:P)

Fortune Smile
Banna

[Hrosskell]

Maybe this is already dead. I'm not quite sure. To bring up a point about the body harness. As a -lot- of people have said, it's not for what it looks like. Anyone can assume -weird- things about it, but honestly, should it even be on top of your concerns for sexuality? There's an underwear vendor in game, you know, and I've always heard that "if you care about matching them, you think someone's going to see them". So take your fight to underwearism where it belongs, and leave the poor Lovites alone.

As far as Sharess, Talos made me think. He said "carnal" pleasures. Don't those include eating or drinking in excess, as well as just lounging around and such? To quote Futurama, as I've seen done a few times, and as it is a witty show it seems appropriate - there is a Hedonsimbot. More than sex, he displays his overall love of lounging, eating, drinking, and enjoying music/art in the form of the play put on by Fry. Is Sharess the Goddess of these things, as well? Lounging, eating, drinking, and artistic enjoyment? If not, who is? 'Cause that's a deity for me.

[Shabanna]

come to the dark side... we have cookies
...and matching undies!!!!
*dies*

[Daediana]

Alright, I have stayed out of this debate because its been a lot of pointing fingers at the Lovites, and pushing the sex topic, debating the ratings and stuff like that. I COME BARING A SOLUTION! hehe And agreeing with Hros's player... god help me... I never thought the day would come lol

First let me say... Lovites... Rock on! I love you guys! Roleplaying with you guys makes being evil so wonderful... You're so far from BDSM and I think people need to cross over to the dark side and learn that. That's right Luke I am your mama... hehe

Anyways... Solution... Shabanna seems to really want the Sharess faith in the realms of Forgotten Kingdoms... And I think this faith is really doable with some work of the players and the IMMs without it getting out of control.

Alright, so we already modify certain things for the game to make it better, so lets take another step forward and modify a faith a little bit. Lets not make it completely about sexual pleasure... have it be about the simple pleasures in life... finding pleasure in the grass between your toes, or the pleasure in a kiss, or in a great meal... or in the touch of another... it doesn't all have to be sexual... sure there will be some sexual fade-to-black rp, but that happens in and out of faiths... We could take the faith of the Sharess and take the volume knob and turn it down. Also, if you are worried about everyone getting into trouble with it... Appoint two or three faith managers to start, ones that have sat down with the IMMs and worked out the faith piece by piece and the rules... give Shabanna a chance to sit down with you guys and put the faith together... set up the rules you want to, modify the dogma a bit, and make is so that its a hard journey to apply to the faith. Like if you are a questee you have tons of tasks, meetings, and so on... It just has to be about the RP and the commitment, that way you will weed out people who don't do the RP as often and don't show the commitment. Also, make a kismet requirement. Like you can only apply to the Sharess faith if you have say... 500 Kismet. Make it a high requirement. Something people have to work for.

And make it a trial run. Give it six months or something to succeed, see what you IMMs think, how the players think its going, and then if it doesn't work out, have Sune get really jealous and pull Sharess's hair into the deep abyss or something... lol

Well that's my piece... just wanted to throw that out there.

[Shabanna]

Just for te record... I in NO way... asked for this faith to be coded. I feel there are people currently on this game who would have no idea at all how to handle the RP and keep it within the help sex regulations. The fact that there are people who feel Sharessan = depraved sex addict... means there are people who would never play this appropriately. It does NOT need to be coded

My original post here... which I regretfully deleted.. because I was shredded to bits for it. Was about a special app... for ONE char to be played by someone with no bans, no strikes , no warnings for inappropriate RP etc...to help bring in an area that is being built where the faith of Sharess is abundant. ( and even though there are no Sharessans and no huge temples to her etc... it is very IC for the particular area)

I was immediately met with posts saying it will never happen/be permitted because somehow one Sharessan in the gmae will turn it into an online brothel. ( which of course is NOT what I want) My arguments... are simply responses to people(with the exception of Dalvyn) saying that a single(Special ap) Sharessan priestess would cause wide spread access to depraved sexual behavior. Which I take personally since I have never ONCE been repremanded for inappropriate RP in this game...EVER

I DO NOT think that putting Sharess in the game in any great numbers is a good idea. I agree with Dalvyn that there are some immature people who would make it an excuse to be even more inappropriate and that with the current help sex regulations it is not a good idea.

And with that I responded to the many posts about how nasty a Sharessan would have to be and how depraved and carnal and sexual the char would have to be... and I simply brought up the fact that... there are other religions in the game that can be played with the same depravity. It hurt some feelings.. and I jsut want to say. I hope that you all can see that it was a personal affront to me as well that nearly everyone here (with few exceptions) spent their time talking about how depraved a Sharessan would have to be and how much damage it could do to the innocence of the game... yet noone considered that *i* was asking and that perhaps you were directly insulting me. The people who say they are hurt by my comments about things like the Lovites and Sunites did not stop for an instant to think that they were insulting me with their comments here.

SO... for the record... there are many things in this game... undies that match, body harnesses, sleeping upstairs with the healer ( who is Sharessan lol- so we actually have one already!! ) bath houses, inns with concubines, corsets, daring leather body harnesses, garterbelts, Bedrooms set up with torture devices on the dresser etc etc etc... all which can be ignored,RPd appropriately within the confines of the RULES by people, or they can be used inappropriately( and then PUNISHED) or taken wrong by the young audience we have... just the same way as the ONE priestess I made the original post about

Nobody seems to get my point...

I suggested... NOT the CODING of Sharess... but, the possibility of a SINGLE (As in one), well written, very detailed app (to go along with a specific RP to bring in a new area being built by that player)... to be submitted by an experienced, responsible player who has in several years of playing here, no bans, no strikes, no warnings, nothing at all to indicate that the RP would not be played completely within the confines of the rules...and people went nutz... it was offensive to me personally. Sorry, I think it is funny that nearly everyone runs to the defense of a generalization about Loviatar and Sunite faiths yet noone thought for a moment that they might be offending me by saying in a sense that I was seeking to turn FK into a whore house with my one Sharessan Thanks folks :/

Happy Weekend
~Shabanna

[Kelemvor]

I think this one has run its natural course and the original poster has explained their position very eloquently

Just a thought though Shabanna... next time - just send in the app and avoid all the publicity