The World of Warcraft clan syndrome

[Raona]

On the speicifc topic of cliques I have little to say because I've very little exposure to them, though I am not fool enough to believe that they don't impact me. I'm invested in this conversation, and appreciate it being had, even if I can't spout off on it. Well, until now.

Given Lathander's thoughtful comments above (which I appreciate he took the time to write) I feel as though I do now have something to offer, at least in the way of confirmation:

I came to FK as a MUD neophyte. Lots of RPG experience, but no MUDs. I started on Imperian and FK at about the same time. I stuck with FK and quickly bailed on Imperian. There were lots of reasons - better RP and no influence for OOC money here being huge. But another key one was that I always felt like I could never make it on my own (not part of a clan) in Imperian. I felt like there was tons going on that everyone else knew about, and I didn't. I was a true loner, I didn't know anyone there. I made IC friends, but their immediate reaction was to load me up with l00t and try to tell me/show me how to twink up. I hated it. Here, I struggled, but I didn't see others doing much better. I appreciated the help I got, but I also appreciated it being IC and not over the top...and I enjoyed the challenge of exploring on my own. I still do! So my point is that I think the "insider environment" is indeed a turn-off to new players, as Lathander said, and it helps the game to prevent it from becoming pervasive. That said, how to do so without doing undue harm to many of the things that make FK great...that's harder.

[Tavik]

Just to clarify what I was saying in my earlier post: I was NOT suggesting players should form IC organizations without an approved application. What I was getting at was that I don't think players should be discouraged from grouping together with the same people to go RP together. Hopefully that clears things up.

Now, what I was saying about the complaint address, I wasn't so much calling on the people involved to report those giving them these undue advantages (Though that would be a great thing to do and I encourage doing so). What I was suggesting is that people stay alert for it and report such things going on as a third party observer. I can't really say that I've seen such activities going on before, and as such, I've not reported anything. But I also wasn't looking for it. Now, however, I'll be keeping an eye out for people engaging in such activities and will notify the IMMs as required.

This goes for myself as well. Using myself as an example, I was punished a while back for engaging in a "RP" that was not necessarily IC, even though I thought it to be within my characters RP. Basically, I was providing help to another character that should not normally be receiving help from one like my character. Anyway, long story short, I was punished for doing so and until I read this thread I really could not understand why the IMMs could not accept my IC reason for doing so. I did not know the other player OOC in any way. I didn't know that players alts. I was doing it because I thought it could lead to some interesting RP. All that said, I can't expect the IMMs to know that and now that I look back on it, I think they did the right thing. Now, between that experience and this thread, I realize the need to watch MYSELF as much as I do others so I do not make myself appear to be giving unfair advantages whether I truly am or not. My point is, you may have an IC reason for doing something, but you have to keep in mind that other people don't know who your OOC friends are and can't determine whether or not that weak IC reason is actually only an IC reason or has some OOC motivation behind it.

As for giving gifts to new characters to help them out, I've always adopted the habit of making it clear that if I give you something I do NOT expect anything in return for it (except maybe a name). I do still agree that there needs to be some limit placed on the gift giving, but if you make it clear to everyone around you that you do not expect anything in return, then you help yourself avoid your actions being misinterpreted.

[Hrosskell]

I, as usual, don't have much of an opinion. I don't know where I stand in the eyes of the common man or the IMM, so I won't make brash statements about how I do this or I do that. But I will ask this question.

What's so wrong with makin' it rain every now and again? If I've got cash that I'm not going to spend, then I'm gonna give it away. If I've got a store of old weapons and armor that I'm not gonna use, I'll loan it out. I don't see a problem with that, if you do it in an IC manner. I refuse to say no to my friends (most of who developed after IC interaction, I know two people that play this MUD from before I started playing) because someone will get suspicious; but I walso refuse to say no to someone just because they're not my friend. I don't see the problem with EVERYONE being rich and well-equipped and happy, like one big happy rap gang.

[Kregor]

What's so wrong with makin' it rain every now and again? ... I don't see the problem with EVERYONE being rich and well-equipped and happy, like one big happy rap gang.

It poses a problem because the Builder Admin Team takes special care in balancing the quality and power of the rewards, with the difficulty and challenge of the quests. As well, we try to balance the power of the challenge with the average equipment and power we would expect a particular level PC to have.

Creatures that are resistant to nonmagic weapons aren't let into places like the Howling Peaks, or other low level areas, nor are they likewise equipped them with magical weapons because we don't expect a higher level character who would typically have magical weapons to be razing their way through it.

Likewise, creatures that ARE resistant to nonmagical weapons are put in places like undermountain, because they are high level areas that we would expect higher level PCs that would have such weapons or spells to affect said creatures. When you load a lowbie PC with magical armour, weapons, etc, what you are giving them is either a false sense of security to charge into places like these where they are guaranteed to perish, or you're giving them an artificial crutch to venture in and complete areas and quests that they shouldn't even be embarking on at their level, or to complete appropriate level quests with a degree of ease that makes it no longer a challenge.

Or worse, in lieu of, or in addition to, equipping ones lowbie friends, one takes their level 50s with a newbie to tank them through lower level quests to make the quest a breeze. Note the distinction... this is not, follow the lower level through an area with no guidance and input to RP together and act as a healer/backup/rescuer/etc.; rather, to lead or coach the lowbie through the map, and stand in front taking all the blows of the low level creatures which are guaranteed to miss you, so the lowbie friend can make their way easily to get the glittery thing at the end before they would really deserve to have it.

As a result, the challenges have to be made tougher. Mobs will have to be armoured and equipped to the hilt at lower levels just to be on even par with the PCs that come against them. And sure enough, when someone dies in the process of going on said quest, they will complain that the area is made too difficult. It took weeks to write, script and code some of my longer quests, and I would expect them to be a challenge in many ways. Frankly, if your success at a quest is to the point of guaranteed, there's really no point in that much effort taken to write and code said quests, we might as well just have a big magic shop in Waterdeep with all the magic items for sale so that new PCs can go in with the 100 plat they got from their buddy on another alt, so they can "pwn" each other.

Frankly, there's a link that pops up often at the bottom of this forum page that leads to a shockwave based game that focuses on "pwnage", for those whose priority is for everyone to be rich, well-equipped and happy.

[Mele]

People who live in glass houses should not throw stones.


I'm finding the way this thread has turned to be just plain old silly. Not one person here can say they have not interacted with a friends or ooc family's new character.

Furthermore, no where in anyones reply do I see mention of loaning out quest armour, or even heavy armour. If I want to equip someones lowbie in a full cloth set to help them feel more established and comfortable in the character, who's business is it to tell me no if I'm meeting the character and roleplaying with the character? Infact, that roleplay on it's own helps someone get more comfortable in their lowbie.

Frankly, there's a link that pops up often at the bottom of this forum page that leads to a shockwave based game that focuses on "pwnage", for those whose priority is for everyone to be rich, well-equipped and happy.

What is well equipped? To me, it's having a set of well matching clothing that I can wear to rp in. Some leathers to fight in to make money for food. Where did anyone say they wanted to make their friends rich? Some people have been playing single characters for real life years and have a pretty penny saved on them. That makes them abusing the system and rich? Daunyelle had a huge sum of money saved from my years on her, and I indeed gave it away to help equip evil lowbies. Should I go click this "pwnage" link because of this? I gave someone I adore oocly a bracelet the other day, that I got from a quest. Because it matched her ensemble and was unique looking. I'm a twink now?

Why is it every time someone makes a thread bringing up a topic they would like discussed it gets twisted into, not even discussion, but spit and hiss fest about items and money in game.


Stop worrying about what so n so is wearing. Stop worrying about where bob is getting his coins. Take care of your own character and roleplay well. In the end, your characters will strive, and you will possibly grow into positions of important rp in the game and be happy.

I seriously doubt Kelemvor's initial intentions for discussion in this thread was to be about gear and money.

[Hrosskell]

Sorry if I sound a little defensive; that seemed like a carefully concealed attack to me.

I know how the game works, and how hard stuff's supposed to be, and how hard it is. I also know that the same end will come, no matter the means. Everyone -does- want their character to be rich, well-equipped, and happy. To say that the point of a roleplaying game is for a character to be poor, in the same equipment as when they began, and sad, is completely erroneous, because I am poor, wearing ratty clothing, and sad in real life - as has been stated before, this game, as well as most roleplaying games, is an escape from reality into something FANTAS-tic. Of fantasy. Am I advocating doing everything for someone? Hell no, I had to tough it out on every character I've ever put some fraction of five thousand hours into; but you know, it just made my day when someone said, "Hey, man, you look like you're roughing it out as a young swordsman. Maybe I'll make it easier for you, and throw you some money," or, "Hey, man, try this on for size; it looks like it'll suit you well." If any of that is illegal, then lock me up.

[Rhianon]

Hurray someone finally had the guts to say what should be said........pay attention to your own character and quit worrying about everyone else's character and how they are leveling or gaining skills or whatever, what difference does it make who does what and how fast. I can't say this enough...........this is just a game,...............this is just a game, if you can't handle the fact that some people like to "twink" their character, then perhaps it is time to find another place where reality can show it's ugly face and you can play a game that is so very much like everyday life.........me I prefer being able to escape reality and be able to do a few things that I can't do in real life. I know I am going to be in trouble for this post, but then I seem to have a way of attracting trouble in one form or another.

[Kregor]

People who live in glass houses should not throw stones.

I'm finding the way this thread has turned to be just plain old silly. Not one person here can say they have not interacted with a friends or ooc family's new character.

Seeing the quote attribution, and the meaning of this old adage, I guess that means you're accusing me of doing the same thing for friends/family that I am criticizing?

In fact, for the characters that my wife plays, and I interact with, I tend to do LESS for them than I do for others, for the specific reason that I don't want to be accused of doing something inequitable because of an OOC relationship. I even talk to her less across the room when we're both playing than I do other players through other means. I never said one shouldn't interact with their friends or or family, or even prefer their company when they're roleplaying, I'm talking about taking a high level PC and loading down a newbie character to the point of excess, and yes, there IS a level that should be considered excess. If a newbie couldn't acquire it through their own strength, with a decent party of the same appropriate level, they shouldn't have it. If you don't do this, don't take it personally, if you do, then at least have the open mind to concede the issue I say this poses to builders who try to make rewards significant and something worth working a quest to acquire.

Mele, I would think you know good and well that I'm not talking about giving a complete set of matching clothes, or jewelry, or even mundane armor to a newb player, whether one knows them or not... I had never met Tayza as Kregor the first time Kregor died, and she went out and bought me a full set of studded leather, to better protect me. That's a whole different story. what I am talking about is a level 11 fighter wearing a full suit of plate armour and carring the flaming axe that some high level character gave them as they wandered out of the font.

Where did anyone say they wanted to make their friends rich?

What's so wrong with makin' it rain every now and again? ... I don't see the problem with EVERYONE being rich and well-equipped and happy, like one big happy rap gang.

I quoted it once, I'll do so again for the continued reference...

And the quote was not an attack, it was cited as a point of reference for my reply. So who's twisting?

And actually, my response wasn't just in regard with one's "friends", the whole statement I made was a big picture, what IF everyone was rich, happy and well-equipped? Then I've wasted my time making a challenge for an Nth level character, with a reward that should be suitable, because said Nth level character has N+30th level mates in his party to sail through the quest, or worse, just gets the item given to them when they come out of the training temples...

"Oh, a long blade of cold fire.. *shrug* already got one... and a gleaming purple falchion too, got 'em when I was 15th level..."

I fail to see why I should be on the end of the criticism for somehow thinking that I shouldn't feel cheated as a builder because of this? Am I alone in thinking that effort has gone to waste when challenges are thwarted in semi-OOC ways, or the rewards designed are cheapened? I don't THINK I am... unless I'm just totally in the wrong place to be.

[Mele]

My aggrivation here is both in the mention of giving items away, and the rebuttle to said mention.

I'm accusing every single one of us of doing the same thing. The bottom line is, there is no one in the game with 72 purple steel whatevers, or long blades of fire to hand out. So what if someone takes their quest reward and gives it away? It's THEIRS.

To claim things like this are detrimental to your building is a tad irrational. Items have passed through your hands that certainly would not have if you were not a patron of afforementioned acts. If you feel like your wasting your time because someone gave their quest item to a friend, then I think perhaps you may be building for the wrong reasons. I know for fact that everyone enjoys and appreciates your building. As I saw many players compliment you on your most recent area, including myself, I would think that THIS would be your motivation, and worrying about what joebob was doing would be above you.

This thread should not be about who gave who what items. The begining of this thread was basically talking about how certain people rp with certain people only. No matter what alts. As far as my opinion goes there, it is what it is. I can name atleast four "cliques" in my head now, you can't ban these people from eachother. This shouldn't have been derailed into ANOTHER thread wankfesting about twinking, and this is why I am coming back so unhappily towards the mention of the items. Or levels. Or money. Or exp. Or whatever the hell people are twinking these days.

[Tavik]

Alright, first off, I think the reason people are bringing up the item thing is that this thread was brought up as a result of questionable balance. If player A comes fresh out of the factory and is given the magical set of armour by player C, and player B isn't, and this is due to the fact that player A knows player C OOC, then there is a problem. Likewise, if player A, B, and C (who all know each other OOC) all decide to join faith X because you get great stuff, then I think that's a problem too. An IMM told me once that if you are doing something that gives yourself or others an easy advantage over everyone else, then chances are you shouldn't be doing what you are doing. To me, having someone you know OOC give your L13 the uber sword of doom justbecause you are freinds, then you gain an unfair advantage over all the other characters of like level who are actually taking the time to work up their character and RP with others.

This doesn't just relate to items though (but a good portion of it does, I think). Having players with OOC ties band together may be a good thing, but when they are doing so with the commands: Kill, kill, kill, get uber loot, kill, kill, get uber loot...etc, doesn't that need to be questioned? I'm not saying you can't do quests together without being questioned, I'm saying that groups running around with the sole intent of gaining the upper hand over everyone else does not promote RP. It promotes conflict.

I think what people are getting at is that we don't want to see a situation in which one player spends their time RPing out their quests with others, training here and there and RPing learning from there superiors, and the other player simply gets loaded up with quest items from their friends and within 5 minutes has gained a massive advantage over the first player without any effort at all. If you don't like the example of players giving players stuff, what about players all grouping a faith that gives out the best stuff possible and then using their numbers to blaze through the faith quest and then area raping and whatever to score quick and easy favour to supplicate every item they can.

If I'm off base here at all, I encourage anyone to correct me. That's how I thought this thread was being taken.

[Ceara]

I think this thread has been blown way out of proportion. No one is saying it's bad to give anything to anyone.
What is being said it is bad to give someone fresh out of the newbie temple the uber sword of doom and a set of magical armour.
I have dealt with this elswhere when I saw a level 10 character outfitted with magical weapons and magical gear that he shouldn't have been able to get until at least level 50 - 60 (it was a max level 100 system). As an Imm I took it away from him and explained why, then spoke with the person who gave it to them and explained why it was wrong.
Of course there was IC reasons but it was still inappropriate, and I will be the bitch if I am forced to.
Like anything, in moderation it can be a good thing, but too much beccomes detrimental.

[Dalvyn]

Beginning of Moderation

Once upon a time, FK was ruled by a group of imms who decided everything behind-the-scene and forced their decisions upon the players. When players started arguing or posting comments that were not backing up the imms' decisions 100%, the threads would be locked, moved, or trashed.

Some players cried "Favouritism!" and "Imms vs players!" and other things that I do not intend to repeat here.

We chose to try something else, and to create open discussions in which players could give input and debate decisions before they were actually taken. The imms would obviously always have the final words, but everybody was free to contribute to the discussion and even very negative threads were not locked.

Like every deal, there is a catch to it though. That means that the imms assume that the players who are going to contribute to those discussions are going to respect a few obvious, common-sense rules. Amongst those rules, I can think of the following ones.

• Avoid flaming, insults, and other posts that aggravate others without adding anything to the discussion at hand.
• Stay focused, on topic
• Read the previous posts before adding yours
• If you have nothing to contribute to the discussion, then simply do not post.

And in the above posts, I can see each of those very basic code-of-conduct rules being broken. If you can't control yourself, then do not post.

Personally, I would really HATE to have to go back to locking threads and taking decisions amongst the imms without consulting the players, and I would consider this a very unfortunate backward step.

End of Moderation

[Dalvyn]

Trying to set things back on tracks...

We are NOT talking about giving out a set of colourful clothes, or giving out a set of non-magical leather armour.

We are NOT talking about seeking to roleplay with your friends and people you enjoy roleplaying with more than with others.

We are NOT talking about avoiding to interact with people that you do not like.

We are talking about people equipping newbies that they do not ICly know with magical objects that are supposedly rare and hard to acquire, and the underlying IC and OOC reasons for that, and thus forming OOC cliques. We are talking about sudden increase in some faiths that we suspect might be related to a similar kind of process: "come join my group and I'll help you get this and that and that and this". We are addressing the question: should this be regulated, and how?

Now, if you want to contribute to this thread - and I incite all those who have input and want to share it to do so -, I would advise you to re-read the posts Lathander wrote above. They sum up the topic of this post much better than I could.

To be enjoyable and OOCly fair, a game needs some kinds of rules and regulations. Those can be decided by the imms behind the scenes without consulting the players, or they can be discussed by all the player base. This is what this forum is about. It is not a place to vent off your frustration or insult other players or post junk that does not add to the debate.

[Laitaine]

Yes, it should be regulated. The issue I struggle with is the proof issue - clearly the imms can't be watching everyone like a hawk all day every day; that would be plain silly.

But some thoughts I've had just sitting here:

1 - Is there some way that the transfer of items could be logged? If that's the case, then at least it flags up to the imms that here are a couple of characters that should perhaps be observed for a while to see if they are acting as if they ICly know each other/are building up a relationship that would justify the giving of such gifts.

2 - Some items currently in game flag themselves as too high level for a player to use. Is there perhaps some way to extend this, so that if uberswordofdoom is given to, say, a level ten character the code tells him he simply isn't powerful enough to use it? This might make people less inclined to twink up newbies. Obviously they could then just go out and power-level said newbie, but I'm assuming that the level v hours played ratio might set imm alarm bells ringing in that instance, and again suggest that perhaps that character would be a good candidate for a bit if imm-vision.

With faiths... hrm... Perhaps making the faithing process longer - such as a few steps of IC requirements - would help with this? I'm not suggesting that faith managers are giving out easy tasks but I just think that if people really have to show some IC dedication and work to get in to a faith they might not be so hasty to join one merely for the uberleet gear?

In any case I would like to think this is really only behaviour demonstrated by a tiny minority of players and wouldn't therefore have a hugely detrimental impact on the game as a whole. But maybe I'm just a naive optimist

And if a player cannot back up their sharing of info/gear/whatever with an IC reason that holds water then yes, they should by all means get a warning for it - because for people actually RPing out relationships this shouldn't even come up as an issue. If you're worried about whether something would be dubious ICly - either ASK (or send in an application, whatever) or just don't do it.

If people really want to be able to help out newbies, perhaps there could be some way of introducing a quartermaster that gives out equipment specifically designed for a new character/player in response to being given a token - giving the player a choice between, say, a piece of armour or a better weapon? This would help to regulate the issue of 'reasonable' gifts. Perhaps also attaching a sort of questbit to it, so that there can only be a finate amount of turn-ins per character?

[Dugald]

"come join my group and I'll help you get this and that and that and this". We are addressing the question: should this be regulated, and how?

Yes it should.

I'd always rather there be a verbal or some kind of "face to face" warning, explaining why they're even being noticed. If they argue that it's all IC blah blah blah - it may be...but then ask them to please not give away such overpowering things to such new characters.

If they freak out, which some might, with the perception that they'll /never/ /ever/ know what to give to /anyone/. Tell them they can always send in an app or something if they want to be so difficult about something as trivial as this. I know when I got the "we are not amused" pm for repeatedly wiping out respawns, I felt pretty dumb for getting caught - because i knew it was wrong. I think most people know it's wrong, they just need to be called on it.

It's hard regulating stuff with IC and OOC influence on it...I'd be happy with the warning and a strike down the road if they continue being a problem. But that's giving discretion to you guys...and I'm ok with that.

[Kregor]

1 - Is there some way that the transfer of items could be logged? If that's the case, then at least it flags up to the imms that here are a couple of characters that should perhaps be observed for a while to see if they are acting as if they ICly know each other/are building up a relationship that would justify the giving of such gifts.

There is a prog that can be attached onto an item, a give_prog, that triggers when it is given from a PC to another PC. This has to be placed on the item at creation time, but it does in fact create a log entry when an item is traded between players. Furthermore, there is a facility to mark an object with an owner, an imm can later look at the item and see the ownmark, to see who the item was originally awarded to... The catch is, these must be done in the item code, in the area file where the item comes from, as an active decision when the area is built, or added later, in retrospect.

2 - Some items currently in game flag themselves as too high level for a player to use. Is there perhaps some way to extend this, so that if uberswordofdoom is given to, say, a level ten character the code tells him he simply isn't powerful enough to use it? This might make people less inclined to twink up newbies. Obviously they could then just go out and power-level said newbie, but I'm assuming that the level v hours played ratio might set imm alarm bells ringing in that instance, and again suggest that perhaps that character would be a good candidate for a bit if imm-vision.

The level field of some object types has been either deprecated or repurposed, as I recall, because code-ally locking out someone from getting/holding/etc said item is an OOC restriction. Whether it should be there as an OOC means, should it be decided that giving uber gear to lowbies is an OOC problem that needs restricting, I am not one to say. I believe Dalvyn could offer the rationale behind the decision to do away with level restriction on items if I'm off base too much?

With faiths... hrm... Perhaps making the faithing process longer - such as a few steps of IC requirements - would help with this? I'm not suggesting that faith managers are giving out easy tasks but I just think that if people really have to show some IC dedication and work to get in to a faith they might not be so hasty to join one merely for the uberleet gear?

Which is why I'm working my faith's hopeful's arses off Credit due where deserved (not trumpeting myself, as I'm green with the whole FM thing, rather others I've experienced and/or observed), there are some faiths with both active faith managers and those that place a heavy RP involvement and emphasis on those who wish to join their faiths. And I will refrain from speaking in judgement or naming names of any faith where it seems otherwise.

In any case I would like to think this is really only behaviour demonstrated by a tiny minority of players and wouldn't therefore have a hugely detrimental impact on the game as a whole. But maybe I'm just a naive optimist

Cliqueness exists in numbers, but some are more blatent and blunt than others, in my opinion, and in varying degrees of innocence.

If people really want to be able to help out newbies, perhaps there could be some way of introducing a quartermaster that gives out equipment specifically designed for a new character/player in response to being given a token - giving the player a choice between, say, a piece of armour or a better weapon? This would help to regulate the issue of 'reasonable' gifts. Perhaps also attaching a sort of questbit to it, so that there can only be a finate amount of turn-ins per character?

Faiths with decent temple support should have a decent store of mundane weapons, armour and equipment that are usually high in quality, and restricted to members of that faith, so that they are distinctive for the members of the faith and build an identity. For newbies, and lowbies, such equipment should be a considerable trade off for their starting gear and normally accessible gear from other sources. If you are unfortunate to be in a faith with limited temple/equipment resources, that's what we need good, imaginative builders on the builders council for.