Names of areas you are in..

Dalvyn · Post by **Dalvyn** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 9:14 am

Selveem wrote:As for looking, I looked plenty. We did all that was possible to be careful. We were invisible for scouting, but they saw right through it.. normal Kobolds.

Normal kobolds do not see through infravision. The affects (whether creatures are affected by true sight or not) in this area are IC.

That being said, I do not think we need this kind of rating. Why? Because such a rating is yet another step in the direction of automatized playing without interaction.

As a newbie, what are you told as you exit the training temple? Go seek people, ask people for help, for direction, for advice on where to train, and behave ICly. Those are still valid later in your adventuring career.

You find a new place? Oh joy (well, at least, that's what I would think, I love exploring). Now comes the time to take an IC decision. Do we go in with only the two of us, and risk dying, or do we call others? Do we at least tell others where we are, so they can come and rescue us if it is needed? That is an IC decision, and there is some gambling in it. If the area has a sticker "Warning, high level only!", there is no IC decision left, only an OOC one.

In addition to that, it's extremely difficult to judge how hard an area is. It really depends on the exploring character, and simply giving out a level range does not work, because it's not really meaningful. An area might be explorable by a level 30-40 warrior, but deadly for a level 50 wizard, and so on.

So, the safe way to go? Ask around if others have seen/heard of this place. Gather a good balanced group and explore. Or trust Tymora and go in alone. Play -> IC <-.

Maybel · Post by **Maybel** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 5:17 pm

Once again... Dalvyn took the words from my mouth...

I have died plenty of times... Raona, I did the same thing, in the same cave.

I have also died in other areas just because I was exploring and exploring alone. When I died, I did not say it was because there was no OOC warning or anything like that. It was because I was alone. Adventuring by myself.

Now, I am a bit smarter... When I go into an area I do not know... I ask all the rangers I know. I ask other adventurers who have some experience under their belt. I ask... and if they do not know. I ask if someone would like to join me to explore... A ranger who would not like to explore a new found cave? Haven't met one yet.

If we put in some huge flashing sign in a village of kobolds who can hardly read... how will that make since? If it was an OOC warning... How is that very IC for you to know not to go in there
"woah bob, i don't want to go in there"
"Why not frank?"
"Cause... umm... i don't know, lets just not go in this cave and explore the area around it for no reason what so ever"
"but frank... we are exploring the whole area"
"Just not this one cave"

When in doubt, if you value your life.... seek help... lots of it... Overkill is not a word in my dictionary

Vindur · Post by **Vindur** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 7:52 pm

I'm sure many people, if not all, know it already, but the command consider gives some information about how hard would be fighting against a specific mob. Of course is a mob is eating you alive is a good indicator also that perhaps you shouldn't be there.

Anyway the best indicator is common sense, if you don't know IC that a specific place is "safe", the wisest decision would be exploring it with company.

Selveem · Post by **Selveem** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 8:15 pm

I mean no offense, Maybel, but not always is it possible to get an 'overkill' group. You also have to think about the safety of people that you suspect are lower level. At the time we joined to go into this place there was next to no one on.

Now, two hours later after I died, it appeared there were lots and lots of people on. I understand the wish to place blame, but I'm not blaming anyone. I'm only saying it would be a bit more fair to players to have _some_ sort of warning that 'Uh, you are about to die idiot.'

Also, keep in mind that not everyone can group with everyone else in this game. While it is often the common practice to encourage grouping, there are some faiths that simply do not mesh. Granted, some of the characters can 'look away' for a short amount of time, but for the full-on Raid like you are proposing it is pretty difficult on non-peak hours.

What of those players who generally only play of non-peak hours? What would you suggest to them when only two or three people are online? Should they be asking for an Imm to come in as 4 mercenaries?

Vindur · Post by **Vindur** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 8:37 pm

Selveem wrote:I mean no offense, Maybel, but not always is it possible to get an 'overkill' group anyone.

I'm only saying it would be a bit more fair to players to have _some_ sort of warning that 'Uh, you are about to die idiot.'

I think that you are mixing concepts here, knowing that if an area is safe or not, doesn't require be member of an "overkill" group.

A character can always ask a seasoned adventurer if a zone is safe or not, or
asking him for safe zones to train, if you have not information about if a zone is safe or isn't you should think the worse until you get more definitive information through IC means.

Dugald · Post by **Dugald** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 12:26 am

I skimmed mostly, and I feel Selveem's pain...so I just have a quick idea that I myself like - hope I don't repeat anything, came into it late.

Typically, at least last I knew, it was poor form to talk about places that are suppose to be "discovered" by individual PC's.

This is one of those OOC trumps IC to keep the game fresh for new players and have that legitimate feeling of exploration/discovery...I love this part, I think it's a blast, til my PC explodes and the only PC's my character knows have no idea what the heck he/she is talking about.

I'd propose a way to rate the area's, not through ECL party ratings or anything, but a bard's tale (written, not spoken). When one of your PC's who isn't a bard finds a place, that you think may not be documented in a tale, grab a bard and bring them with ya...that's what bards are for. Then the bard can write a story about the trips success or failings.

I love this influx of bards, and bard products, and bard events...it makes the game world seem more real for us non bards, and I really appreciate it. So in this case it'd be a steel fang and dinkledorf (the bard)'s trip to blue kobold hotel. If the story is 4 pages of tolkienesque descriptions that leads up to "then we saw 2 kobolds, and we were killed quicker than lager turns to pee". Danger! If the virgin voyage there finds a bunch of hidden stuff, mention the cleverness of whoever you're up against the all the false floors etc etc

Longwinded. I just think this would be a good way for bard's to be able to write bard tales (maybe it'd only be legal to write about the zones where a "?" doesn't exist on the over world map, and directions there only gets you to the town, not the street), characters who wish to find adventure and who think they've seen everything, can buy them instead of hitting square to square fruitlessly for 4 hours.

Wrap up, with more creatures getting weapons, more areas are getting insta kill dangerous. It's not a bad thing, but I think now with the danger increasing - and (seemingly) the rate of building really spiking, it could be alright for bards to tell the tales of these un"?"ed zones. I love the bard influx, I want everyone to play a bard besides me. And I think telling the stories of these new areas can get players excited to rally up an adventure party, and then get to read about themselves afterwards.

Initially, this won't do a whole lot. But after a couple months and 5 or 10 publications, from good and evil perspectives...the potential would be there to gauge the difficulty through story and character reputation.

Tyson

Keep in mind with any faiths (IC or OOC), your character is a follower, not the god. You aren't immutable, you will make mortal mistakes. The true crime against your god would be not atoning after you err against their edicts (whether through confession, or the slaughter of the bunnies in WD).

More bards!

edited to add: And since these would be dual purpose, IC stories for the player to enjoy and IC stories for the player to gauge the difficulty...I'd propose allowing the imm council or whoever stamps bard productions to deny something for being dangerously misleading for the audience PC. Even if you are an Evil character, the only reason they'd let us do it is to remove those "Since when did the ewoks of ardeep get laser vision!" moments.

Tavik · Post by **Tavik** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 4:57 am

Selveem, I thank you for your kind words. I really do appreciate it. However, that wasn't quite what I was talking about. I simply meant that places get rated by word-of-mouth reputation. What I mean is that most people KNOW Feebov's is a difficult place to go. I knew that before the first time I went there. Same with UM. Most of these places don't need to be rated when they already are. I suppose you could make the argument about new players wandering into these areas, but as I said before, I knew a lot of the difficult areas before I visited them as a new player. I recognize that such deaths are irritating, but do take comfort in the fact that you aren't alone. Nearly everyone has experienced such deaths. Besides, you don't want to put the priests out of business, do you?

Dugald, I like your idea very much. The only thing I would point out is that doing so needs to be done delicately in quest areas. If this idea gets too popular, I can see people throwing in quest steps as part of their 'epic adventure'. I don't know if books are read and screened before they are implemented (perhaps someone who knows that one could clarify?). If so, then I suppose this wouldn't really be a much of a problem since books containing quest info would be caught and rejected, but if not, I think it would be a serious concern. Other than that though, it would enhance the current "IC rating system" I described above.

Dalvyn · Post by **Dalvyn** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 10:57 am

Dugald wrote:Typically, at least last I knew, it was poor form to talk about places that are suppose to be "discovered" by individual PC's.

I think you are either mixing up various things, or exaggerating to make a point.

It's all fine to talk ICly about places you have discovered. It's all fine to describe roughly what you found out there, too. What is not fine is giving out quest walkthroughs.

Now, I will admit that the line is quite blurry at times, but IC description of how hard a place is is certainly fine. There's a quest in this area, that consists in finding two objects, and people have to either think and study hints to deduce where the items are, or to search the whole place. Giving out the precise location of those items would be going too far, but describing the general environment is alright.

And it could certainly be done by bards, and/or rangers. There could be some sort of Guild of Guides that would gather information about such places, and perhaps make people pay to gain access to the information in some form. That could be a very interesting IC setup.

Daediana · Post by **Daediana** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 6:14 pm

I sort of think it is a good idea and sort of dont. I think we should just leave it the way it is, because if you think about it in a RP perspective... you don't always know what you're getting into when you're walking into an unknown area... and I act a lot different in areas I don't know after learning my lesson a long time ago. Its good RP to not know where you are at all times. Explore, but do so in groups or die and learn your lesson the hard way. IF you die it promotes RP... you have to seek help... its all part of the game... not everything should be simple in a game plus I find it exciting to walk into a new area not knowing if I am going to die or not... or walking through and beating up stuff then suddenly getting my bum beat! Its the game! ENJOY! hehe

Moloch · Post by **Moloch** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 7:14 pm

I really dislike this idea, as it feels like it really takes away from the overall gameplay. If you are able to look up an area and see how hard it is before you go exploring it, why not just turn on godmode and run around killing everything? The point of the game is to play your character, who otherwise would have no idea what an area has in store for them. To reiterate, it is a bad idea to start allowing information such as this to everyone.

Janon · Post by **Janon** » Fri Apr 13, 2007 4:33 pm

There could be some sort of Guild of Guides that would gather information about such places, and perhaps make people pay to gain access to the information in some form. That could be a very interesting IC setup.

I know this is IC info, but since it was mentioned, I wanted to speak up before any of the rest of you got any stinkin ideas!

I plan to IC start a Cartographers' Guild, application submission and approval required first of course. It's not particularly an IC secret so I don't mind mentioning it here. Applicants can contact me in-game after the next Foregathering (please don't ask when that will be - I'm working on it).