Brewing and Scribing
Brewing and Scribing
I keep hearing that these can't be learned by new characters, is that true, or is it just harder to find where to learn them?
Windows 95: n.
32 bit extensions and a graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit operating system originally coded for a 4 bit microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that can't stand 1 bit of competition.
32 bit extensions and a graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit operating system originally coded for a 4 bit microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that can't stand 1 bit of competition.
Dalvyn wrote:Yes, that is correct, to some extent.
Alright, as long as I can learn it somewhere, really had me worried there, lol.
Windows 95: n.
32 bit extensions and a graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit operating system originally coded for a 4 bit microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that can't stand 1 bit of competition.
32 bit extensions and a graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit operating system originally coded for a 4 bit microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that can't stand 1 bit of competition.
Leohand wrote:Dalvyn wrote:Yes, that is correct, to some extent.
Alright, as long as I can learn it somewhere, really had me worried there, lol.
When will this new teaching thing take effect? Will it work the same for Mining, Smelting, etcetera? Or just brewing and scribing?
Windows 95: n.
32 bit extensions and a graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit operating system originally coded for a 4 bit microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that can't stand 1 bit of competition.
32 bit extensions and a graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit operating system originally coded for a 4 bit microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that can't stand 1 bit of competition.
I will only make one comment to this end...
There was a time, a little while back, when it was decided that track would be taken away from thieves as a guild skill. The reasoning being that there would be a new rogues guild, called scouts, that would take the place of the thieves for things like tracking etc...
Months went by, a year went by, those who were fortunate to have grandfathered the skill before it's removal from the skill list had simply had the edge, while the game waited for code to catch up, both code and area support for said guild.
Ultimately, the skill was added back to thieves. One reasoning of which was that it was premature to yank a skill away from rogues when the planned alternative wasn't even completely off the drawing board.
Seems to me, to remove the one brew/scribe trainer before all the logistics and codal aspects of the new train/teach system are in, is leading toward the same sutuation for spellcasters, as the removal of track from thieves' guild file did for them. Though arguably more damaging to the spellcasters than the rogues. Brewing and scribing are a threefold benefit to casters: They are a source of support (scribing scrolls for the added spell power before going on an adventure), a source of revenue (five plat for a potion is five plat for the components that have to be idly wasted in the senseless casting needed to improve on any spell), and a teaching source (also a revenue source, as those who cannot access a trainer for a particular spell will often pay big coin for a scroll of said spell, just to be able to add it to their spellbook.) Already, there is a marked number of spellcasters that lack either ability, and it's highly inequitable for them as opposed to those who have the skill. That, and the turnover of elder characters who knew the skills, almost guarantees a select few elite that will even have the ability to teach others the skill, whenever said system actually comes in.
My opinion, it should be accessible now, so that at least we're mounting a number of potential teachers for then, and not just depriving a whole base of casters the skills that should be allowed them.
There was a time, a little while back, when it was decided that track would be taken away from thieves as a guild skill. The reasoning being that there would be a new rogues guild, called scouts, that would take the place of the thieves for things like tracking etc...
Months went by, a year went by, those who were fortunate to have grandfathered the skill before it's removal from the skill list had simply had the edge, while the game waited for code to catch up, both code and area support for said guild.
Ultimately, the skill was added back to thieves. One reasoning of which was that it was premature to yank a skill away from rogues when the planned alternative wasn't even completely off the drawing board.
Seems to me, to remove the one brew/scribe trainer before all the logistics and codal aspects of the new train/teach system are in, is leading toward the same sutuation for spellcasters, as the removal of track from thieves' guild file did for them. Though arguably more damaging to the spellcasters than the rogues. Brewing and scribing are a threefold benefit to casters: They are a source of support (scribing scrolls for the added spell power before going on an adventure), a source of revenue (five plat for a potion is five plat for the components that have to be idly wasted in the senseless casting needed to improve on any spell), and a teaching source (also a revenue source, as those who cannot access a trainer for a particular spell will often pay big coin for a scroll of said spell, just to be able to add it to their spellbook.) Already, there is a marked number of spellcasters that lack either ability, and it's highly inequitable for them as opposed to those who have the skill. That, and the turnover of elder characters who knew the skills, almost guarantees a select few elite that will even have the ability to teach others the skill, whenever said system actually comes in.
My opinion, it should be accessible now, so that at least we're mounting a number of potential teachers for then, and not just depriving a whole base of casters the skills that should be allowed them.
"There is no safety for honest men except by believing all possible evil of evil men."
Kregor - Ranger of Tangled Trees
Rozor - Lady Luck's Duelist
Tygen - Ranger-Bard of Mielikki
Kregor - Ranger of Tangled Trees
Rozor - Lady Luck's Duelist
Tygen - Ranger-Bard of Mielikki
I am a little disappointed because I see this as another problem for anyone who plays a goblinoid or Orc. It is difficult enough for for an Orc to be IC and be a priest. ( yet of course Gruumsh has spell casters)
In all honesty, There is a distinct lack of IC places for an Orc to learn spells already. As a matter of fact I might go so far as to say there are some spells that are completely impossible to learn ICLY. Yes... one could "Work around" the requests and requirements that Orcs are not trained at say... a temple of Lathander. Personally, I prefer not to bend the rule of where Orcs may and may not go too much. Of course, one could say " You could learn from other orc casters " But then you would have to look at the numbers to realize that it is not very practical. There simply are not enough of them.
This post saddens me because, it is yet another way that Orcs will end up at the bottom of the food chain training wise. WHO.. on earth is going to teach an ORC and it be IC??? yes... there might be the stray character. But if played ICly not many orcs I know, if really being IC would go hunt up some pointy or even a human... to teach them. They would really not wish to show that weakness to what is considered and enemy. And I would like to add the disclaimer in tiny print, that I am not whining that Orcs are being "kept down" lol I am well aware of the challenges that we Orcs face and normally say little about it , even if my portfolio of spells is sadly lacking because I chose not to sneak into unIC trainers
It would be nice, if this were not one more thing against those who chose the path. I speak on this because I am very much trying to open up doors for those who wish to be involved in the Orc RP. I hate to see one more thing to hinder.
I know this is fairly specific and effects very few, yet I felt I needed to express my opinion.
Thank you,
Ooma
In all honesty, There is a distinct lack of IC places for an Orc to learn spells already. As a matter of fact I might go so far as to say there are some spells that are completely impossible to learn ICLY. Yes... one could "Work around" the requests and requirements that Orcs are not trained at say... a temple of Lathander. Personally, I prefer not to bend the rule of where Orcs may and may not go too much. Of course, one could say " You could learn from other orc casters " But then you would have to look at the numbers to realize that it is not very practical. There simply are not enough of them.
This post saddens me because, it is yet another way that Orcs will end up at the bottom of the food chain training wise. WHO.. on earth is going to teach an ORC and it be IC??? yes... there might be the stray character. But if played ICly not many orcs I know, if really being IC would go hunt up some pointy or even a human... to teach them. They would really not wish to show that weakness to what is considered and enemy. And I would like to add the disclaimer in tiny print, that I am not whining that Orcs are being "kept down" lol I am well aware of the challenges that we Orcs face and normally say little about it , even if my portfolio of spells is sadly lacking because I chose not to sneak into unIC trainers
It would be nice, if this were not one more thing against those who chose the path. I speak on this because I am very much trying to open up doors for those who wish to be involved in the Orc RP. I hate to see one more thing to hinder.
I know this is fairly specific and effects very few, yet I felt I needed to express my opinion.
Thank you,
Ooma
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Dalvyn
- Sword Grand Master
- Posts: 4708
- Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2003 9:26 pm
- Location: House of Wonder, Waterdeep
Who would teach orcs? Well... orcs. Duh! I don't see why orcs would be at the end of the "teach" chain more than anyone else here.
1) Nowhere is it written that casters have some kind of special right to have those skills (except perhaps wizards who are supposed to get scribe for free). If we go by the books, those aren't even skills, but feats. Characters work perfectly well without those skills for now.
2) Sure, we could consider scribe and brew just like any other skills and put them on trainers. That would be letting them be flooded in the mass of other skills/spells and would fail on making them any special. I believe those two "skills" are special as in different from all the other skills and thus should be treated differently, because this makes learning them a "special" step in the character development.
3) We tried to make those skills "special" by putting them on trainers that would first require the characters to complete a quest (in this case answer a series of riddles) before they could learn them. End result was the answers to those riddles were just passed around. Besides, riddles is not a test of anyone's "worth" to gain access to those special skills. Finding out someone who is willing to teach you and devoting time to interacting with them through good roleplay is a better "screening" method in my opinion.
4) Those skills are dangerous in that they do not incite grouping up at all but rather allow people to solo more. It was very common to see (rich) warriors buying plenty of potions of all sorts to make sure that they could get out of any situation on their own. The end result was that one brewing wizard meant 3 wizards who never got taken along on adventures (who would take a wizard who has to rest and meditate every 5 minutes when you can replace them with potions?). This effect is even worsened by the fact that wizards are incited to brew thousands of potions to "improve". That, to me, shows that brew and scribe are not skills that can be reintroduced lightly.
5) I don't want to put those skills in now and see them treated like trades. What are we going to see? Casters brewing thousands of potions and burying them in their garden, like smiths currently make 5000 copper dagger and bury them in their forges?
6) The sooner we get a good system for teach, the better. I don't think I can be held responsible for slowing things down.
Duly noted.My opinion, it should be accessible now, so that at least we're mounting a number of potential teachers for then, and not just depriving a whole base of casters the skills that should be allowed them.
1) Nowhere is it written that casters have some kind of special right to have those skills (except perhaps wizards who are supposed to get scribe for free). If we go by the books, those aren't even skills, but feats. Characters work perfectly well without those skills for now.
2) Sure, we could consider scribe and brew just like any other skills and put them on trainers. That would be letting them be flooded in the mass of other skills/spells and would fail on making them any special. I believe those two "skills" are special as in different from all the other skills and thus should be treated differently, because this makes learning them a "special" step in the character development.
3) We tried to make those skills "special" by putting them on trainers that would first require the characters to complete a quest (in this case answer a series of riddles) before they could learn them. End result was the answers to those riddles were just passed around. Besides, riddles is not a test of anyone's "worth" to gain access to those special skills. Finding out someone who is willing to teach you and devoting time to interacting with them through good roleplay is a better "screening" method in my opinion.
4) Those skills are dangerous in that they do not incite grouping up at all but rather allow people to solo more. It was very common to see (rich) warriors buying plenty of potions of all sorts to make sure that they could get out of any situation on their own. The end result was that one brewing wizard meant 3 wizards who never got taken along on adventures (who would take a wizard who has to rest and meditate every 5 minutes when you can replace them with potions?). This effect is even worsened by the fact that wizards are incited to brew thousands of potions to "improve". That, to me, shows that brew and scribe are not skills that can be reintroduced lightly.
5) I don't want to put those skills in now and see them treated like trades. What are we going to see? Casters brewing thousands of potions and burying them in their garden, like smiths currently make 5000 copper dagger and bury them in their forges?
6) The sooner we get a good system for teach, the better. I don't think I can be held responsible for slowing things down.
Obviously, and logically. But I think Ooma's question was one of logistics, rather than logic. A chicken vs. the egg scenario.Dalvyn wrote:Who would teach orcs? Well... orcs. Duh! I don't see why orcs would be at the end of the "teach" chain more than anyone else here.
ie, if the only way to learn brew and scribe becomes to learn it through a teacher PC, and there are no active orcish or goblinoid casters with the skill, then... logistically, not logically, where DO they learn it from? Where will they get the egg, in other words?
"There is no safety for honest men except by believing all possible evil of evil men."
Kregor - Ranger of Tangled Trees
Rozor - Lady Luck's Duelist
Tygen - Ranger-Bard of Mielikki
Kregor - Ranger of Tangled Trees
Rozor - Lady Luck's Duelist
Tygen - Ranger-Bard of Mielikki
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Dalvyn
- Sword Grand Master
- Posts: 4708
- Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2003 9:26 pm
- Location: House of Wonder, Waterdeep
Same as with other high level spells that would be obtainable only from teachers: we would create roleplay opportunities where some people can learn it "magically" from an old book, or from an old hermit sage.
In the chicken and the eggs story, I'm sure that the imm had to start by minvoking a chicken or oinvoking an egg at some point, to get the game running. We'll just do the same here.
In the chicken and the eggs story, I'm sure that the imm had to start by minvoking a chicken or oinvoking an egg at some point, to get the game running. We'll just do the same here.
I think Dalvyn's right about that the game would be flooded by scribes and brewers and their wares. It would be too easy to get these items.
In the DMG for DND, it takes a large amount of gold and experience points and components to make any magical item, scroll, potion, etc. I'm not sure what it takes now, but if making scrolls and potions took hundreds of gold, components, and experience points, the flooding of these items might be slowed.
There's my thought.
In the DMG for DND, it takes a large amount of gold and experience points and components to make any magical item, scroll, potion, etc. I'm not sure what it takes now, but if making scrolls and potions took hundreds of gold, components, and experience points, the flooding of these items might be slowed.
There's my thought.
