Why is this man talking in sign language?

Travis · Post by **Travis** » Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:49 am

Probably because you're about to get mugged/ambushed/stabbed in the back or some other unpleasantry. (I guess he could be hard of hearing, but that's not what I'm getting at) The Thieves Cant is one of the most interesting things I've seen on FK to date and you would think just a wealth of RP would come from it, but I really havn't seen all that many people use it.
So I was wondering, is speaking in Thieves Cant in front of other people generally frowned upon? There have been a few times when I've said a thing or two in the Cant and have been immediately labled "thief" by all present. Is the sign language so obviously associated with being a thief? If anyone has any background on it, I'd love to hear.

Kirkus · Post by **Kirkus** » Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:50 pm

Personally I don't think Thieves Cant is, or should be restricted to just sign language. Have you ever seen the musical oliver or anything with large ammounts of less than reputable characters in it. They have another way of talking that sounds just like idle chit chat. Different words with different meanings. "Havn't seen " porky the pig" round these parts lately have you Jimmie?" To a thief that could be something like asking if the cops are near by. Here I found the sight I was looking for.....

http://webpages.charter.net/frustrated/ ... tml#Exampl

Now I don't think we should use this exactly as it is. But we should develop our own thieves language.

sorry the web page goes to the bottom of the page for some reason.... gotta scroll up not down.

Travis · Post by **Travis** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 1:45 am

That's a pretty nifty thought. I always figured it was a language based entirely on sign language. I'd love to make my own Cant.

Telk · Post by **Telk** » Fri Nov 25, 2005 7:24 am

Not to mention that Thieves Cant would probably be very hard to decipher to the mundane that aren't looking for it, after all a thief isn't going to sign out in the open, it would attract too much attention, they would use the elements of the surroundings to their advantage, shadows, noise, confusion, crowds, so I don't believe that anyone would be able to really 'see' Thieves Cant.

Cret · Post by **Cret** » Mon Apr 16, 2007 1:06 am

Ive a question about thieves cant.

Is Comp lang supposed to translate this?

Code wise it does.. however im wondering if it should ICly as well?

Grom · Post by **Grom** » Mon Apr 16, 2007 1:26 am

I think it would since it is a form of a laguange. Plus I am sure the spell has its roots in mind reading or some such. As for the cant. If I was a thief and did a sign language and or different words it would be with the flick of a finger at a lock of hair. Icly you'd have to be a well traveled adventurer to notice it and be on the look out for it. In my honest opnion..or less than honest

Moloch · Post by **Moloch** » Mon Apr 16, 2007 6:46 am

I do not know how it is -supposed- to work, but I feel that it should work like this..

The tiny gestures and symbols emitted by someone of roguish nature, should in my opinion not even be noticeable by others, unless it is by nature their profession or they themselves speak/know it.

I am not saying that NOONE would be able to notice the intricate and discreet signings done by the rogues, but it is beyond belief that everyone in Faerun would notice a rogue, master of their art, talking in a language designed specifically for him and his brothers.

Cret · Post by **Cret** » Mon Apr 16, 2007 6:55 am

What about arcane/divine divination? ie.. comp languages

Laitaine · Post by **Laitaine** » Mon Apr 16, 2007 7:18 am

Comprehend languages allows someone to understand the spoken or written word - I'm not sure that sign language would therefore apply. Additionally it doesn't give any insight into the meaning of the words, only the literal translation, and it doesn't allow you to decipher codes. I'd suggest that Cant is more like a code than an actual language with conventions of grammar etc and not therefore covered by the spell.

But that's just my take on it.

Oghma · Post by **Oghma** » Mon Apr 16, 2007 8:03 am

Comprehend Languages

Divination
Range: Personal
Target: Noncombat
Syntax: cast 'comprehend languages'

You can understand the spoken words of creatures or read otherwise
incomprehensible written messages. The spell enables you to understand
or read an unknown language, not speak or write it.

Very much so, the cant which is directed to and with thieves through hand signals should not be readable with comprehend languages as far as the helpfile is concerned, best thing would be to ignore it if you do have utilized the spell to understand it.

but...

Though there is no specialized helpfile thieves cant is a verbal and gestural language of thieves and rogues. This could mean some form of verbal exchange may take place, maybe coded calls or something of the like. That quote

Thieves cant - a verbal and gestural language of thieves and rogues.

is from the helpfile, so I would once again hand it over to rp and situations like thieves using subtle calls or coughing. It depends on the situation.

Laitaine · Post by **Laitaine** » Mon Apr 16, 2007 8:49 am

The verbal part of Cant traditionally involves using a word or phrase as a substitute for another - almost like rhyming slang in a way. As such, though it's likely spoken in Common, it wouldn't make much sense at all to anyone not familiar with the conventions. While you might understand the words, the meaning would be lost on you.

Anyway - for anyone interested, Kirkus posted a good site above, and here's another one about it (this one also features 'advanced' Cant)

Moloch · Post by **Moloch** » Mon Apr 16, 2007 2:31 pm

I agree, comprehend languages should not be applied to Thieves Cant, simply because it is a code more than a real language. It could be different for each Rogue. I would assume that a lot of it would be non-vocal anyhow, since it even says 'gesture' when you speak it. A lot of the time when you speak it, it doesn't show up to nonspeakers anyhow. I feel it would be safe to assume that a divination spell would not be able to deciper the codes of a rogue

Cret · Post by **Cret** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 12:56 am

Hmm.. So..

Thieves cant isnt just the finger language of the Belgerath series.. where they talk and discuss stuff in one language and use their fingers to hold a seccond, more private discussion..

So, how do you get people to stop casting comp languages when thieves cant is spoken? Ie.. they get the *you do not understand this language* and POOF! c 'comp lang'?

Oghma · Post by **Oghma** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 3:27 am

Two possibilities. They would oocly make the descision that they icly cannot understand it. Or you can politely oocly tell them, most players are very understanding, they'd probably ignore what they are hearing as long as they have the affect on.

Laitaine · Post by **Laitaine** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 7:15 am

Cret wrote: So, how do you get people to stop casting comp languages when thieves cant is spoken? Ie.. they get the *you do not understand this language* and POOF! c 'comp lang'?

In game it is coded as just the finger waving. I can't really think of a way to code in the verbal aspect of it without resorting to making it appear as a completely different language, which it's not (ie, the words are still spoken in Common or what have you, they just don't appear to make much sense in context).

But as Oghma says, it's one of those willing suspension of disbelief moments

Nedylene · Post by **Nedylene** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 11:37 pm

I have issues with languages. We need a lore skill that anyone and their brother can learn that tells them what language a person is speaking IF it is something other then common. Currently speaking in smotes will never ever trigger the language you think they are speaking.... I am loathed to go to oocs when someone is speaking a language that there is only one word I don't understand... conclusion draws that it is a language that my character knows almost perfectly but not quite.. when I am on Tayza I know MULTIPLE languages .... sometimes too many. I cannot find an ic way to ask what language is that when I know ICly my character would reconize it... and I hate going ooc in an rp raona had a very very nice post about how to stay ic. We need a way to know what language a person is speaking so we CAN rp that we still may not want to understand it under comprehend languages.