Inherently evil

Tierney · Post by **Tierney** » Sun Nov 16, 2003 3:18 pm

This is a question I've had for years, based of some d&d I played. Are intellegent evil creatures inherently evil? Lets say a gold dragon found a clutch of freshly laid red dragons eggs. Lets say the gold had just killed the red mother, and in a fit of guilt desides to hatch the eggs and raise them. Would these red dragons still turn out evil when raised by a good parent? What about other evil creatures raised by good parents?

On the same coin, what about good creature babies being raised up to be evil? Are either of these feasable?

Lathander · Post by **Lathander** » Sun Nov 16, 2003 3:31 pm

This old philosophical argument is answered much easier in a fantasy setting than in real life. In real life, and with fantasy humans, it is still the interesting debate of "Nature vs Nurture." However, when races such as orcs and red dragons are introduced, so are the concepts of evil deities and their creations. A red dragon egg is a bad egg from the beginning because it is created that way; it is in its blood. Creatures descendant from the creations of evil gods (orcs for instance) are made to be like their creators.

Isaldur · Post by **Isaldur** » Sun Nov 16, 2003 4:53 pm

While most Forgotten Realms things I've read with the exception of good lycanthropes (It used to be that all werewolves, boars, etc were evil except Werebears) don't deal with this, I have read a few Dragonlance books that do. Best part is they dealt with dragons more in depth than your usual Forgotten Realms lore too.

One of them is a book where a Green Dragon get so tweaked off at Tahkisis (Evil High Goddess, worshipped by dragons and comparable to Tiamat in Forgotten Realms) that she gives up on him and all throughout the book helps out a clan of Gully dwarves and fights off some planar snake creature. Funny part is, the dragon got mad for maternal reasons which you can either see as selfish, or as just an angry mother. By the end of the book the dragon wasn't green anymore because it's deeds and the gradual change of it's demeanor shifted it more towards a metallic color yet not quite metalic.

The other is a short story about a Black Dragon in humanoid form who is crippled in battle and the enemies (Good guys) think that he's one of theirs so they bring him to their healer. The Dragon reflects on how the good soldiers use teamwork and genuinely care about one another, and the evils are just stains and vermin. Later on the dragon has the choice of either going blind in one eye and killing a goodly cleric, or listening to the cleric's philosphy on how good and evil dragons don't necessarily need to act as their scales demand. In the end however it's not good or evil that drives the dragon, it's just the fact he hates all humans so he kills the cleric anyways.

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And as I wrote the above I just remembered something about Forgotten Realms. I'm not quite certain of who did it but I remember reading something about how someone in Myth Drannor before it fell did something to a Red Dragon Egg and the Red Dragon hatched as Lawful Good and was a steed for it's owner, saving Myth Drannor on a few occasions.

My whole take on it is that you'll always have a few creatures to be different from the norm. A brass (or were the greedy ones bronze.. )dragon so greedy that he does evil acts, a red dragon raised to be good, an orc who rejects his own society and just wants a friend, the honorable minotaur etc.

Kirkus · Post by **Kirkus** » Sun Nov 16, 2003 5:13 pm

I love the fact that you bring up minotaurs, especitally when you are talking Dragonlance. If I remember correctly there were a few books on the race that I think portrayed them as a race much like humans. I mean that instead of having them being snarling bloodthirsty monsters, they were a highly structured warrior race. They had laws and values. They saw certain professions as being so important that they would not be attacked or harmed. No it has been some time since I have read any Dragonlance books so my memory is hazy. But they just didn't seem chaotic or evil as a race. I think they should be viewed as a neutral race.

Granel · Post by **Granel** » Sun Nov 16, 2003 6:04 pm

I think it could also be a reversal of roles, Orcs might think themselves the great good in the world while they see elves as the evil bane of existense. Elves would see themselves as the greatest good and see orcs as The vilest evil. In Dragonlance it would be ogres and elves. It is like two sides of the looking glass, that one side sees itself in a different light even though they are evil or good, to them what is evil is good and what is good is evil.

That is, I think so.

Dominik · Post by **Dominik** » Sun Nov 16, 2003 6:32 pm

I've always thought of the evil and good issue much like Granel said. I forget what it was, but I once read a novel that made a point of saying that evil and good was all in perception. So if a creature were raised slaughtering and maiming...they may very well think that it is good of them to do so, while helping others is despicably evil. And vice versa.

Kirkus · Post by **Kirkus** » Sun Nov 16, 2003 8:21 pm

Good point!! I totally forgot about that. Like I said, its been ages sice I have read those books and I forgot that there were plenty of characters in the series that thought the deeds they were doing were good, but were really bad.

Lathlain · Post by **Lathlain** » Sun Nov 16, 2003 10:23 pm

It was Icewind Dale 2 that came to mind when I first read this thread. Anyone who has played it will know of Isair and Madae, two cambion (half demon) siblings. For the sake of a story, I won't give too much away, but it is explained within the game that they were brought up within a friendly and loving environment etc etc for all of their childhood lives. I think Madae was trained as a priestess of Ilmater, and Isair was to be a goodly knight or somesuch. Having never really known anything about their own herritage there was no way they could know how to perform evil acts, but following a single incident in theirs lives, they became to all intents and purposes 'evil' overnight. The story flows a lot better if you're playing the game and know all the details, but the essence of meaning is still there

Perhaps having chosen half-demons as my example was a little over-the-top when compared to the initial subject of the red dragon eggs, but if all such evil races link back to parent deities/planes etc, then there is good reason to believe that the same applies to other 'inherently evil' races.