Undermountain Dwarf (Not a true bug)

Cret · Post by **Cret** » Tue May 29, 2007 12:34 am

Posting this here real quick:

Dwarf at the entrance to the UM.

OOC: Grouping is encouraged! Expect to find armies of
OOC: monsters coming your way if you are alone.
OOC: Also, remember to read 'help quest information' and
OOC: http://www.forgottenkingdoms.com/board/ ... php?t=1093

That link isnt valid any longer, just tested it. If we could get a newer link that would be cool.

Dalvyn · Post by **Dalvyn** » Tue May 29, 2007 9:13 am

Is there a new link?

Should UM remain restricted to party and should we keep playing Halaster as an old crazy mage who gets bored when he sees solitary adventurers in his domain and decides to send an army of helmed horrors their way?

Ceara · Post by **Ceara** » Tue May 29, 2007 11:46 am

Looks at Davlyn and says Is this a trick question?

Dalvyn · Post by **Dalvyn** » Tue May 29, 2007 4:25 pm

No. How could it be a trick question?

Zilvryn · Post by **Zilvryn** » Tue May 29, 2007 5:44 pm

I like Undermountain the way it is.

I don't think IC you -should- be able to walk all the way through Undermountain alone, even if you can in game... It just doesn't seem right..

Caelyvar · Post by **Caelyvar** » Tue May 29, 2007 6:05 pm

I completely agree

I like the idea that I cant just walk in and defete monsters. One of the true FEARS in FK is being lost down there and no one can get you.

I like this fear. I like having this as a fear for even the toughest characters.

When you can go up against the big red dragon north of the keep all by yourself there is very little left to fear anymore.

If anything I want MORE places like this in FK.

Amalia · Post by **Amalia** » Tue May 29, 2007 6:25 pm

Working on it, Caelyvar! *evil grin*

Lathlain · Post by **Lathlain** » Tue May 29, 2007 6:46 pm

This might just be me being a muppet, but I got the impression that Cret was querying this link as it is pointing to the FK forum by domain, which is no longer valid as it was when the mob's speech code was made.

I believe he's asking for the link to be corrected with a currently valid one - I can't find the thread in question at the minute, but I'll find it eventually!

Zilvryn · Post by **Zilvryn** » Tue May 29, 2007 7:01 pm

Lathlain wrote:This might just be me being a muppet, but I got the impression that Cret was querying this link as it is pointing to the FK forum by domain, which is no longer valid as it was when the mob's speech code was made.

I believe he's asking for the link to be corrected with a currently valid one - I can't find the thread in question at the minute, but I'll find it eventually!

Eh, nah, that was my understanding of the question as well.

Lathlain · Post by **Lathlain** » Tue May 29, 2007 7:05 pm

Nobody mentioned it, and seemed to be discussing whether the policies were in need of a change instead! I assumed you'd all just missed the point, and the fact that the currently existing link is dead

Ceara · Post by **Ceara** » Tue May 29, 2007 7:33 pm

I think there really doesn't need to be a 'rule' that people have to be grouped to go into undermountain, because it's nearly impossible to get through it without help. Especially if you're not a caster. I have always thought it was unfair when the rule was created that you weren't allowed to go in alone and if you did you would get mobbed by imms. I also don't understand the logic of not remembering anything once you leave. Especially for persons who live beneath the earth, from skullport, ched nassad or menzo, they would be more accustomed to the threats and know how to deal with them better.
Really it's not very bright for a person to go alone unless they are very powerful, and even then they can be struck down. It should be the characters choice wether they are that stupid/egotistical or not

Why do we have to forget? How is it possible to bring quest needed items back if we forget?

Amalia · Post by **Amalia** » Tue May 29, 2007 7:46 pm

I've always taken forgetting Undermountain to mean that it's a maze shaped by Halaster's insanity, and therefore incomprehensible to the sane mind-- that we forget it simply because to rememer it is to BE insane. The experience of Undermountain, even for evil and twisted characters is, in my perception, a reminder that there are bigger, nastier things out there than you. I've always played forgetting Undermountain as having foggy, disconnected images of my time down there-- the stuff of nightmares, like it's supposed to be. If you're charged with a quest in UM, (and I think this has been stamped with approval before) you can remember what you were asked to do or who you need to go find once you've done it-- you can't, however, keep a clear image in your mind of how to get there.

It's my opinion that even if a character travels routinely through UM, there should always be a thrill of terror at the notion. Yes, it's homey in a sense to those of us who frequent Skullport or the Drow cities, but despite its familiarity it should have that edge of danger as well-- after all, that's one of the things we love about the very cities we travel UM to reach, isn't it? And we couldn't very well look down our noses at those sissy goodies if every tom, dick, and harry had the mental constitution to make it through Undermountain.

Dalvyn · Post by **Dalvyn** » Tue May 29, 2007 9:34 pm

Yes, Cret's question was about the link. I thought it was a good opportunity to extend the debate and re-examine the policy though. Nothing is set in stone.

As for the "forgetting" part, it actually was not a "rule" at first. It dates back to the creation of the Fellowship. The "forgetting" part was a suggestion as to how someone can roleplay their inability to walk other people through the quests of Undermountain. The idea was that the precise details would be fuzzy at best in the character's mind and that is why (s)he couldn't lead other people through the quests down there.

Ceara · Post by **Ceara** » Wed May 30, 2007 1:12 am

Hrm Well I've been chastized by other players for remembering something related to a quest or even just talking about being there. Which I didn't appreciate and have been told repeatedly it's a rule that you don't remember anything.

I wouldn't walk anyone through a quest wether in um or on the surface but why institute a rule for forgetting details in one area and not others?

As for UM being dangerous yes it should be feared, even drow and those who live in UM know it's dangerous and don't tred lightly outside the cities even if it is home.

Mele · Post by **Mele** » Wed May 30, 2007 1:54 am

Ceara wrote:Hrm Well I've been chastized by other players for remembering something related to a quest or even just talking about being there. Which I didn't appreciate and have been told repeatedly it's a rule that you don't remember anything.

I wouldn't walk anyone through a quest wether in um or on the surface but why institute a rule for forgetting details in one area and not others?

As for UM being dangerous yes it should be feared, even drow and those who live in UM know it's dangerous and don't tred lightly outside the cities even if it is home.

The rule exists because Halastar has placed Wards on the Undermountain to make it so you do not remember things when you are not in it. As he is a powerful wizard, not because someone was bored someday and thought they'd make it that way.

Raona · Post by **Raona** » Wed May 30, 2007 11:07 am

Related to the original bug aspect of this post:
Japcil mentioned it in a bug report on this spot, and suggested what the new link should be:
http://www.gallwey.com/fk/board/viewtop ... ermountain
I concur with his expectation of the new URL, but the post isn't there...so I fear the Undermountain policy posting is lost to the sands of time.

Regarding what the UM policy contained:
I've explored very little of UM, precisely because of its nature. It gives it a certain aura. Raona thinks of the whole place as a devious trap set by Halester to lure young souls to him, and she warns people accordingly IC. In my personal opinion, there doesn't need to be a "rule," but any Imm with time on their hands and the inclination, who spots a lone card down there, should feel free to "play" the Halester with them. He's testing them...if they are weak, they bite it, if they are strong, maybe Halester goes and has a chat with them. If said Imm spots anyone remembering too much of the Undermountain, in too much detail, they should indeed inflict said PC with insanity, for the reasons Amalia nicely detailed. The place may also shift with time, reflecting its being a magical manifestation of Halester's warped mind. Obviously, it would be best if these risks were notorious and well-known to the whole of the playing community, otherwise they do risk being unfair to new players. A great many folk in WD ask young bucks to go get this or that for them from UM, and the temptation to do so is nearly overwhelming. It's a very high level area that is rubbed with sugar and put in easy reach of new players...and often, it seems, a few of them group up and go down there, only to get munched on.

The only hesitation I have in this is my understanding that UM is the only route to get to certain places (and I ask that those replying to this remain vague as well - I think a little too much IC info hast already been spilled!). Are those places that people NEED to be able to get to, and sometimes get to/from alone? If so, is a UM policy change, or a change in the route one must follow in order to get there more in order?

The Lawmakers have already spent a good deal of time on the difficulty faced by Drow in the Deep, and how this is to some extent forced upon them by the location of a specific passage. It seems to justify/lead them into temptation on a great many other fronts.

Lathander · Post by **Lathander** » Wed May 30, 2007 2:11 pm

1. I would like to see the restrictions remain. I most emphatically love the way it is now. Please don't remove the restrictions or rp centered around this area.

2.

Yes, it's homey in a sense to those of us who frequent Skullport or the Drow cities, but despite its familiarity it should have that edge of danger as well

I would like for it to be just as difficult to get from Skullport to the surface as it is the other way around.

3. Ceara, why do your posts in this thread seem so hostile? Maybe they aren't intended that way, but that have a definite edge to them.

4. As it was explained to the Fellowship by Khelben, Halaster has cast a spell on the whole of Undermountain that causes the forgetfulness. There used to a be a really good post explaining the details of the memory fog. Perhaps it is the dead one reference above. Basically, it wasn't too strong on the upper level so that lower level players could train there. Vague recall was fine (e.g. You could remember the basic monsters like orcs, but not the whole layout, you could not recall where you found a given object).

5. Our general rule has been that Halaster USUALLY leaves you alone unless you are far enough into the UM to have needed to complete a quest to get there. Once you reach that point you are fair game; especially, if you are alone.

Ceara · Post by **Ceara** » Wed May 30, 2007 4:19 pm

How are any of my posts, save this one, hostile? As for this one I still don't regard it as hostile but defensive.

I stated my opinion and what i've been told by others, I don't see how in any way my posts have been hostile in any way. Care to give an example? Unless you speak of me asking Dalvyn if it was a trick question, which was intended as a joke.

In fact I've felt as though some were being hostile to me in their responses, however, at the time I chose to ignore it.

I thought I was being diplomatic and asked questions that I had because I don't know the answer, not as a snide comment. I apologize if it's being read as that way.

I realize you do not know me very well, but this certainly is not me being hostile, others can attest to that fact.

Lathander · Post by **Lathander** » Wed May 30, 2007 4:33 pm

I wasn't trying to attack you Ceara, I apologize if I put you on the defensive. I merely read them that way. Your choice of words is very direct and they seemed to have an edge of hositility to them, especially the one about people chastising you for talking about being in the UM. As you say, I don't know you very well and if it wasn't your intent to be hostile I take you at your word.

Ceara · Post by **Ceara** » Wed May 30, 2007 4:44 pm

I tend to be direct and blunt especially when I'm trying to be diplomatic and unemotional about things. I say things as they are most times, though I do try to be polite about them. I'm an extremely honest person and I do ask a lot of questions. All of my characters share one common trait, curiousity

I honestly didn't know anything about the UM rules, before I left I used to go to UM all the time alone with Ceara, then suddenly the dwarf was there with a link telling me that if I go in alone and an IMM is on I'll be swarmed with mobs, lose my corpse and all my belongings. That was the extent of my knowledge, so yes I found it unfair because I didn't know the reasoning behind it.

Raona's explaination makes sense to me so it's easier to accept now that some logic has been explained.

I have and will argue things with IMM's but I also listen, and so long as they are willing to listen to my arguements and reasoning and take it into account I also listen to theirs and generally we come to a consensus even if it is, that's the way it is, which I accept so long as I've been listened to.

I think a lot of problems are resovled with communication, and far more are created without it, therefore I speak my mind. If people take offense to what I say or think or take it the wrong way, then I apologize, but I believe that it is better to say it so that if it is a misunderstanding it can be cleared up, rather than holding it in and stewing and jumping to the wrong conclusions.