Sacrifices

[Selveem]

Currently in FK, to sacrifice a corpse is considered an evil act.

I would like to open this up for discussion because I do very much disagree with this and I have a few examples to go with my submission.

Before I do so, however I would like to begin with the literal definition of the actual word "sacrifice" as provided by http://www.dictionary.com (minus the unrelated definitions that pertain to baseball and the like):

1. the offering of animal, plant, or human life or of some material possession to a deity, as in propitiation or homage.
2. the person, animal, or thing so offered.
3. the surrender or destruction of something prized or desirable for the sake of something considered as having a higher or more pressing claim.
4. the thing so surrendered or devoted.
5. to surrender or give up, or permit injury or disadvantage to, for the sake of something else.
6. to dispose of (goods, property, etc.) regardless of profit.
7. to offer or make a sacrifice.

Now, literal translation aside I see no reason why a ritualisitic sacrifice should be considered innately evil.

I would also like to submit just two examples in history where sacrifices were performed by 'good' people (please hold personal grudges against faiths/racial groups aside):

Christians: Christians used to sacrifice livestock to their God (an utter waste of meat IMO! *grin*) as an offering of homage.

Cannibalism: There were tribes who would eat specific internal organs of their fallen enemies because they believed with the consumption of the flesh, they gained their enemy's power.

Now, while these things may be seen as unappealing, they are not innately evil. They are rituals that do not show disrespect to the fallen. I believe that a desecrate command should be used to make the ritual evil, while consecrate may be used by those of 'good' alignment to show that the ritual was not evil. Those of neutral alignment or those who see it simply as custom/religion untied to the forces of good nor evil could then benefit from the RP of such.

Now, perhaps some might suddenly question: Hey, why do you bring this up now after so many years of playing here?

In all honesty, I forgot. I was speaking to another player recently and I suddenly remembered an RP where a character of mine sacrificed as per his tribe's custom (dictionary.com definition #1) in the presence of a Paladin and the Paladin reacted as if my character had just done something evil.

Now, yes, I know sacrifices could be smoted out and the like; but, at the time I was on telnet and didn't know (but now do, thanks to the aforementioned "player") that you could stack commands using alias.

Either way, I do not see a ritualistic sacrifice as innately evil as a whole and thought I would bring it up as for discussion. What say you all?

[Tavik]

Selveem, the Christians never sacrificed livestock. That was what the Jews did before Christianity came about. Now that that history lesson is over, I'd add to what you were saying in that the Jews also sacrificed plant offerings which consisted of grains and fruits and the like. I could see that as being implemented into a few different faiths, though primarily Chautea. I do agree though that sacrificing is not necessarily evil, though human sacrifice is generally thought of in that way. But, human sacrifice isn't all we are limited to and therefore sacrifice doesn't need to be evil. I'd love to see some sacrificial rituals both among the evil and the good faiths.

[Selveem]

Edited to remove inapropriate content.

[Mariela]

I suppose it would depend upon the customs of your tribe and how the sacrifice was carried out.

I know most cultures that sacrifice animals, for example, do not torture the thing before killing it. I believe it's a clean kill and then they use most of the body if not all of it for various uses. (I am recalling a very vague memory about some Muslim's coming to a friend of mine's goat farm for that actual reason. If I remember correctly, they bought said goat. Slaughtered said goat, while doing the prayer thing, and then butchered it still doing the prayer thing and then carted the entire thing away minus the parts that were 'unclean" so to speak which were burned. Very interesting.)

I think in terms of game code, it's assumed maybe that if you sacrifice a body to a God, you are torturing it first? I am remembering some of what is it.. Hindi? customs that upon death, the body was thrown into a fire along witht he possessions of the dead, upto and including one's spouse wether that woman was alive or dead. (No one Hindi come and beat me up! I'm trying to resist the urge to look up a bunch of things and post a really dry and long winded conversation about sacrifice and the dead in various religions.) Now I as a christian person and well.. a modern thinker AND a woman would not appreciate being thrown on a pyre when my husband died... but... you see my point. It is not evil within the confines of one's religion.

Do I think sacrificing should be an evil act code wise? Absolutely. A good RP like the story of Abraham sacrificing Issac (That'd be the old man and the son story.. why jews, ect sacrifice Lambs... ) I would imagine being overrode as an evil act and added to your file as a good act? I dunno. I suppose it would depend upon the god in question.

Just cause your tribe thinks it's awesome to eat the heart of your opponate, I dont know if any FK gods actually condone such acts. I suppose I could see it if it was a strain of Tempus's lot, or some of the more battle hardy gods.... maybe eating someone's brains if you were a really wacked out tribe that followed the God of Knowledge. Evil? Maybe not.. but definatly gross. in my opinion. (Oghma don't get any good ideas about this! I refuse to eat brains!)

I don't know if it's possible to decode the sacrifice of a body to a God and make it so it's a faithful thinger to Gods who encourage the body to be destroyed upon death. I dunno. Maybe it's something that could be done to an invididuals account for that character if it's something the IM's approve as a role play thinger.. requiring an application?

I am kinda seasawing back and forth. I personally don't know if I would want a lot of people running around cannibalising other people.. even if they are mods and for their gods. It's kinda... gross. And on the other side of the sexual conversation. Over the top violence kinda makes my stomache turn and is a cannibal really something we need to have on FK? Or even a tribe of followers who like to eat their enemies insides and thenb urn the body? I dont know. It's an interesting debate. From a standpoint of diversity, it would be intersting, to say the least..... so.. heck, I'm in favor of it as long as it's in controlled doses.

[Glim]

Well, lets see... are we talking about just sacrifices as it pertains to living creatures? Or unliving sacrifices?

Really, the only sacrifice I would see as evil would be the sacrifice of a sentient humanoid (humans, elves, etc). Yes, it might depend upon the tribe, but if a civilised person saw a tribal man sacrificing something sentient, then naturally they would think it as barbaric and evil. It is circumstantial, really.

Nonsentient creatures (cows, lamb, etc), it really depends upon who is seeing the sacrifice. Most would indeed see it as evil, barbaric, or at the very least a waste of good food.

As for unliving sacrifices, those are done in FR all the time, im sure. Umberlee is an evil god, yes, but tribute that is given to her could be seen as sacrificing something, and that act isnt necessarily evil because it is usually gems, rum, etc. I could see the same sacrifices be made to Valkur. The only evil part of that sacrifice is the god they are sacrificing to.

To sum it up, really, how a sacrifice is seen as would be based upon what is being sacrificed, to what god, the background and/or morals of the person seeing the sacrifice as well as the person doing it.

I personally don't know if I would want a lot of people running around cannibalising other people.. even if they are mods and for their gods. It's kinda... gross. And on the other side of the sexual conversation. Over the top violence kinda makes my stomache turn and is a cannibal really something we need to have on FK?

Well, we already have cannibals on FK, so you cant really say is that we want on FK. Its already there, they just arent describing eating the liver on a plate with fava beans. Btw.... Hello Clarese .

P.S. Feel free to sacrifice any and all dwarves you find, they are completely fine. *runs*

Feedback is always welcome,
Thanks,

[Nedylene]

*squeeks out in a meek voice* Jewish not Jews please ...... 'Jews' is often seen as derogitory from people who practice.

[Nasrialle]

I realize that I'm new here so feel free to knock me upside my head if I'm way off track with this post.

When you mention sacrificing as an evil act, what exactly do you mean? I realize that you gave a literal definition, but what, in terms of mechanics, are you including? Some people could view the automatic destruction of an npc corpse after their death as a form of a sacrifice, while others may view it as a strictly ritual term and exclude common battles. Do I believe that ritual sacrifices are evil? Well, that really depends on the situation. If a person is sacrificed as an offering in hopes that a city will be plagued then yes, that is evil. If a person is sacrificing crops in hopes of a favorable season then no, that is not evil. When it comes to destroying corpses after a fight then yes, that is an evil act. You are desecrating a body. Something that should be allowed to continue in the natural cycle. I do not believe that a line should be drawn between NPC and PC corpses because there is really no justification for it.

Like I said before, I could be way off.

[Mariela]

Sorry if anyone was taken back or offended by any terms for various followers of religions. Sometimes it's hard to stay on the PC side of things. It all depends on WHO you are hanging out with wether or not they think Jew or Jewish is the appropriate term. So sorry if someone was offended. It was not the point of my use of the word.

[Oghma]

Getting back onto the topic, my opinion:

Consider the deity you serve before sacrficing. Most things in game can be sacrificed, some things should not be because they are innapropriate and some are certainly very appropriate. In the case of intelligent creatures, some gods will frown on these sacrifices because it is not in their intent or doghma for their followers to do so. Some players will also frown on certain sacrifices because it is seen by them as a destruction of something that should not be destroyed. Yet other gods will see it as a neccesary thing and reward followers for it. Other players may dismiss or cheer it on. It depends on the crowd. I think it is a poor rp to just code sacrifice a corpse, I think it gains sustenance from a smote or action
rendered.

The helpfile here is explicit in its explanation of the sacrifice command, that it warns players that some deities will frown on followers that sacrifice foes beneath their ability (often by not granting favour or sometimes through rp depending on the situation) It also warns that if you sacrifice something in the company of others that adhere to another faith or morality they may take offense. I do agree that not all sacrifice in the real world is evil, but in FR there is a predominance of evil sacrifice, this might include:

Evil Sacrifices:

Sentient beings - animals to supplant or curve the anger of a deity or offer sustenance.

Intelligent creatures - intelligent animals and player races used to further the power of a deity through fear, souls, or might.

objects of reverence of a rival faith or faction - relics and items of importance to another faction or faith

In comparisson to good or neutral sacrifice:

Sentient Beings - animals, livestock and various other creatures in dire or profound ceremonies

Harvests and foodstuffs - Offered up to the deity as sustenance and in devotion

Items and tithes or alms - given in place of other things and used to feed the poor and contribute to the church etc.

I think that the line can blur somewhat depending on the faith, but it depends on the deity and how they decide to deal with followers in their perspective. Some may allow certain sacrifices if the rp makes sense, and is within the lines of faith. Others may not. Ways to check before you act would be to pray or smote prayer before hand (to avoid spamming the prayer boards) or to send in an application explaining your rp and why you are sacrificing. This may not be enough for pc's you may encounter icly but that may be the result of your actions. It is important to consider ic actions and consequences and do your best to accept them.

Here is the helpfile.

Sacrifice offers an object to the gods, or deity. The gods may or may not
be pleased with your sacrifice depending on which deity you follow if any.
It is expected that when sacrificing a PC corpse that you fully roleplay
the sacrifice. Also when sacrificing mobile corpses you will offend others
you are roleplaying with if it is not something that is part of their own
religion. The gods may not be impressed if you sacrifice corpses of foes
that are considered to be beneath your abilities.

Sacrifice of PC corpses and some objects generates a log.

[Nedylene]

Sacrifices are not always death either. I have a beloved book that I purchased to enhance Nedylene's RP. It is called Mistress of the Night and in it is featured the churches of Shar and Selune. In some of the first few chapters they showcase a lovely lovely ceremony in Selune's church for the coming of the full moon. Show the full regalia, singing etc. Featured into the ceremony they pour milk and pale wine into the moonlit pool as a sacrifice. The definition has been horribly horribly narrowed into killing.

The plain simply definition of sacrifice (when used in a religious) is to give something over to your faith. Brought into FR it can be incorperated into many ways. As my characters have done... Nedylene has killed NPCs of Selune and sacrificed their forms with a prayer to Shar. Tayza has left some of her cherished books on the altar to Oghma and sacrificed them to the church so others can read them. Akordia has buried some of her wooden items and blessed them as a sacrifice to the forest. She has also buried gems into the earth and other knick-knacks to give them to Chauntea. Broaden the scope of the meaning of sacrifice and it is very very adaptable to the FK world.

[Cret]

I think there is some personal bias with the word sacrifice

sacrifice

1. the offering of animal, plant, or human life or of some material possession to a deity, as in propitiation or homage.
2. the person, animal, or thing so offered.
3. the surrender or destruction of something prized or desirable for the sake of something considered as having a higher or more pressing claim.

offering

1. something offered in worship or devotion, as to a deity; an oblation or sacrifice.
2. a contribution given to or through the church for a particular purpose, as at a religious service.

I think people (On FK) tend to be more black and white... good and evil. There isnt much of a grey or variation. So people think of these two terms as different terms.

My people make offerings to the gods. Be it Virgins, First Born, Sheep, or throwing coin into the sea.

Your people sacrifice your women and children and it is barbaric! An evil act!

How do you choose wich is evil and wich is not. Can we say that Christian mass is canabalism? Or laying a dead buck apon an alter to Melilklilklilkli... As a showing of our devotion. Sacrifices are a devotion of faith. While one will not sacrifice an elf to show devotion to Corelialineanene. One might offer threshed grain to Chauntea or sacrifice a plowing cow in her name to honor her.

Now.. what is done with the offering or sacrifice can constitute evil.. Gutting your enemy as a sacrifice to read entrails... Burning your victim alive at the stake. Could be constituted as evil.. Sacrificing a plow cow to honor your god of the fields. Then using that same cow as the main course in a cebeltory feast... Throwing the first catch of the day back into the ocean as thanks might be a good sacrifice. However, each of these is an offering to the god of your choice, a sacrifice of faith.. or of desire. ITs only HOW they are done that constitutes the evilness of a sacrifice or offering.

Then again. Evil is pure perspective on personal values and morals. A begger would consider throwing a coin into the well a sin, but would easily kill a man for that coin. While the man throwing the coin would consider murder a sin and his coin toss a holy gesture... Its pure perspective!

[Ealain]

Is this question really a moral one, or merely a mechanical one...?

On FK, sacrificing a corpse gains favor with only certain deities, notably the evil aligned ones... are we arguing the case for a sacrifice to be an option to all deities' followers?

If so, perhaps something along the lines of 'dedicate' rather than sacrifice.

Hence, I have laid this foe low and I dedicate my victory to X, Y or Z deity

Sacrifice does indeed have several meanings - giving up something prized or worthwhile to a higher or more deserving cause would be my modern day take on it.

But here on the game, sacrifice means to gloat over the dead foe and wave your bloodied hands in your deity's direction to get their attention.

Personally, I think the current distinction is fine, but that other options could be fun if the coding of them were possible.

[Dalvyn]

I see the current "sacrifice" in FK as an act that consists in defacing, in a ritualistic way, an object or a corpse, in such a way that it is not usable anymore, and dedicating this ritual to a deity.

The exact details are left to your imagination. For the sacrifice of items, it can be hitting them with a ritual hammer. For the sacrifice of bodies, it can be ritual scarring and sorting out the inner organs, or something similar. I actually would like for "sacrifice" of bodies to require a special ritualistic object (dagger for example) and have an added lag and move point consumption, much like dig.

Sacrifice of the corpses of sentient beings, with that interpretation, is - I would think - always evil, since it would most likely mean that the dead's soul is given to the deity. I see the sacrifice of corpses as complex rituals, like black masses and whatever other reference you can get from the cheap horror movies.

The sacrifice of objects could be good, neutral, or evil, depending on the nature of the object and the deity. For example, a Selunite could sacrifice a holy item of Shar and that would most likely be a good act. A Gondar might sacrifice a copy of a new invention to honour the dual Constructor/Destructor aspects of Gond.

In the case of Tempus - but I guess Tempus himself could post - I would not think he would accept or even appreciate the sacrifice of dead foes. Tempus is about valliance in combat, and I don't think that include defacing your fallen foes. A smoted prayer like "I dedicate this victory to Tempus" or, better, "I dedicate this combat to Tempus" would make a lot more sense to me.

[Selveem]

Sacrifice is not disrespecting the dead. You can respect your fallen enemies and still dedicate the fallen, inanimate corpse of your recent conquest to him in my opinion. From what I have read, it says nothing about not being able to 'sacrifice.' In fact, it even SAYS that one of his rituals _often_ includes the bloodletting of your foes (as well as yourself occasionally). Tempus is neither Good nor Evil. He doesn't care what side you fight on as long as you are honorable in combat. His portfolio include war, battle, and warriors. His domains are chaos, protection, strength, and war. I don't think he should reward one and not the other. Ritualistic sacrifices often include some form of bloodletting when done. You are not necessarily offering the soul of your conquered foe, but perhaps simply the uninhabited carcass. A token of appreciation. Whether it be during a bloodletting on a pike or laid out and 'respectful-lookin.'

[Oghma]

That may conform moreso to Garagos, the god of war and brutality in battle or berserk battle rage, whose followers literally bathe in the blood of their squelched enemies than to Tempus, who emphasizes honour in combat. I remind you that fk is not the real world or canon fr in some respects, that sometimes you have to accept things and take the middle road. Sacrifice of corpses here is seen as a dark deed of evil, if you did it you may be in trouble ic for it, it may affect your alignment or your ic reputation to some others, or may not judging your reasons if you can convince others of it. This is the way it has always been as it describes in the helpfile, that others may and will take offense at sacrifices if it is in their rp to do so. If it happens the best method would be to deal with it icly and accept the result of ones actions.

[Selveem]

Um... The bloodletting was directly from the Forgotten Realms faiths and pantheons book. Here is a direct quote: "It is also expected that at least once a tenday worshippers of Tempus spill a few drops of blood (preferably their own or a worthy foe's) and sing the Song of the Sword in Tempus' honor." Bloodletting is a form of sacrifice, is it not?

[Kregor]

"Spilling a few drops of blood" isn't the same as slitting the neck of a fallen opponent and letting its blood drain out, or defacing it ritualisticly in any other manner. It's simple to spill a few drops of blood... go engage in combat. That alone spills enough blood, and I'm quite assured that is the extent of what Tempus would wish of you.

Honor in combat would include honoring the fallen. Sacrificing a fallen foe ritualisticly would not be honoring them.

Furthermore, I've made the statement before, when things don't gel with canon sources, or rule books, and yet the GMs say it's a different way, house rules trump. It's the number one rule in RPGs.

[Dalvyn]

Yes, spilling a few drops of blood is not what I associate with the "sacrifice" command of the game. Now, I believe that there are two debates here that need to be distinguished.

Debate 1 - What means the word "sacrifice" in English, and is performing one an evil act or not?

Debate 2 - What means the command "sacrifice" in FK, and when does it apply / should it be used?

It's not really the right place for Debate 1, so I'm only attempting to give some input as to Debate 2. Different people can associate different meanings to the word "sacrifice" (that's Debate 1), but what we need to agree on is what the command "sacrifice" means in the FK world.

A similar example... if a known murderer and evil doer comes next to you, would you greet him? In the English sense of the word "greet" (unless I'm mistaken), the answer would be "no". I'd guess that you wouldn't be very welcoming to them. In the FK sense of the command "greet", the answer would be "yes" if they get to know your name, because the "greet" command means something more than just "greeting" someone.

Now, I wrote above what I considered the command "sacrifice" to mean. And, to me, it's not just spilling a few drops of blood as Kregor pointed out. It would be more like opening the body open, bathing in the blood, ritualistically cutting pieces and bits, and doing rather gory things that I do not really want to describe more precisely.

The end result of the command "sacrifice" is that the object that you sacrifice is no longer in the game. That means that it's more than just pricking their littl' finger and letting a few drops of blood fall on the ground Harsher "actions" are required to make a body disappear.

Now, I'm fine with your desire to - for example - spill some blood in honour of Tempus. That might be appreciated by Tempus or not, I do not know. I don't play Tempus, so I wouldn't say one way or the other. But what I am saying is that, if spilling some blood is what you have in mind, then you should smote it and not use the "sacrifice" command. Or, in other words, the "sacrifice" command does not do what you mean your character to do, in this case.

There, I hope I better described what I mean this time.

[Emrys]

If sacrificing corpses is an evil act, I really think it should be spelled out more clearly in the help files.

"Sacrifice offers an object to the gods, or deity. The gods may or may not
be pleased with your sacrifice depending on which deity you follow if any.
It is expected that when sacrificing a PC corpse that you fully roleplay
the sacrifice. Also when sacrificing mobile corpses you will offend others
you are roleplaying with if it is not something that is part of their own
religion. The gods may not be impressed if you sacrifice corpses of foes
that are considered to be beneath your abilities."

I did not get from that that it was EVIL, only that not all deities approved. I rather dislike taking a hit to my alignment for what should be, it seems, common knowledge.

[Raona]

I did not get from that that it was EVIL, only that not all deities approved.

Point well taken, and HELP SACRIFICE (and HELP COOK) modified in an attempt to clarify this issue.

Emrys - It is possible your PC's favour dropped rather than their alignment shifted, though I don't know the echo or the details of the consequences of sacrificing a corpse. But that would be first guess as to the effect.