Reflections about stealing

[Cret]

I love to play thieves. However, steal is such a hard thing to work with as a skill. I think I proposed this one other time, but if not here it is:


Steal <item> (mob)
Would work like normal. However make it so you can steel items from merchants. As it stands you cannot steal from merchants who do not have the items for sale in their inventory.

Steel loot (mob)
The loot would be a randomly generated item baised on skill, area wealth, and mob. Perhaps a treasure chart? This item could then be sold to several fence merchants, to be placed arround the world.

ie.. worse to good.

50% a cheep trinket: sell value 1 gold
25% a gaudy bauble: sell value 3 gold
10% a new gimcrack: sell value 4 gold
8% a fine doodad: sell value 1 plat
5% an ornate broach: sell value 2 plat
3% a pretty gewgaw: sell value 3 plat
2% a magical +1 dagger : sells to any merchant.. 10 plat
0.1% a restring token : redeemable (must be GM in skill to have chance)
and you would give <item> fence ---> get coins

[Zilvryn]

I really like Cret's idea relating to loot, it adds a nice randomness to things.

Kinda like wandering around a dungeon in Advanced Heroquest (anyone remember this one?) and the DM rolls for random encounters and out of nowhere a Bloodthirster of Khorne appears...

Always a nice treat..

[Rhytania]

I dont like the idea of prewarning, or an ooc message before hand. It takes away from the realism of the situation and I guarantee it will never fly. Ive tried it multiple times and it always resulted in someone doing a put all bag out of nowhere or running out of the room to save their things.
I am also against the config +/- steal. I doubt ANYONE would have it on allowing theft. Danger is a constant part of the game, how would we be doing it any service by 'padding the walls' so to speak becuase of a few bad apples?

The way the mechanics work in game is only things in you inventory can get stolen. Well dont leave things in your inventory! Out of all the things you wear carry, why would you leave something there for long enough for a thief to take it? Thats just asking for it.

What I do propose is making anyone level 15 and below unstealable, everyone 16+ is fair game. Also, bags and pets are out of the question as normal, and lastly all thieves are not able to steal against PC's unless they apply an app for it after reaching a certain level, or an imm decides to turn it on due to RP/Maturity. Once this option is enabled then that PC can steal from other PC's, however if that pc causes any grief to other players unfairly against the rules then no questions asked kill that character off.

[Selveem]

I think the echo was proposed to be for the person trying to steal, not the person being stolen from. There already is an echo check for the person to detect the pickpocket. I don't feel that needs to be changed.

I can justify this with the fact that all rogues have a kismet requirement. Further, because they have a requirement of kismet, they should be held far more accountable.

[Dalvyn]

Just a few answer to re-center the debate.

• We are talking about stealing from PCs or mounts, not from mobs. There's no reason to disable stealing from mobs at all (there might be reasons to change it, but that's for another thread).

• Danger is a constant part of the game, how would we be doing it any service by 'padding the walls' so to speak becuase of a few bad apples?

  From my experience - and Lathander (who is one of the imms who deal with complaints) confirmed it - it's not just "a few bad apples". A better description would be a basket full of rotten apples with "a few good ones". And, while I can understand why some people want FK to reach high ranks on various mud sites, I also believe that the situation will only become worse with the possible income of more players.
• [quote="Rhytania]The way the mechanics work in game is only things in you inventory can get stolen. Well dont leave things in your inventory! Out of all the things you wear carry, why would you leave something there for long enough for a thief to take it? Thats just asking for it.[/quote]
  This is not directly related to the point above. If it's so simple to secure everything, we might as well use a nosteal configuration. Inciting people to put things into bags and wearing/holding those bags is not particularly interesting challenge. Overcoming puzzles, collaborating to kill a hard monster, setting up a clever plot with other PCs ... all those are interesting challenges. Remembering to put everything into packs is not what I would call an interesting challenge (just like remembering not to "walk" into ocean rooms). So, we might as well cover up with a config option.
  
  But, aside from that, this is not the core of the problem. Whether or not things can be stolen is not the main problem; the main problem is how those things are stolen or, more importantly, how the thief reacts after the theft.

• Also, bags and pets are out of the question as normal, and lastly all thieves are not able to steal against PC's unless they apply an app for it after reaching a certain level, or an imm decides to turn it on due to RP/Maturity. Once this option is enabled then that PC can steal from other PC's, however if that pc causes any grief to other players unfairly against the rules then no questions asked kill that character off.

  That's a very interesting option. Though, as far as bags are concerned, I doubt that those who pushed for bags to be steal-able would go back.

• I can justify this with the fact that all rogues have a kismet requirement. Further, because they have a requirement of kismet, they should be held far more accountable.

  I have often heard players say things like "Yay! Only 50 more kismet and I'll be able to make my <xyz> character." The thing is, kismet requirements are considered just as requirements while they have been set to allow players to learn enough about the game to be able to play this character. People end up chilling out on the Market Square or in an inn room without learning about the game and, as a result, when they have enough kismet to create their new characters, they do not always have the required knowledge to play them well. Perhaps we need to give players a clearer message about what is required of them (but I doubt that will be enough).

[Lathander]

Here is an idea I posted on an imm forum, but now that I think about it, it might be better here.

As is to be expected, many PCs value their items more than their lives. The reason for this is somewhat obvious, it is generally easier to regain PC life than it is to regain stolen property from a non-rping PC thief. Many quest items are very hard to replace. Given this concept, I'd like to toss out this raw idea. Feel free to shoot it down or offer modifications.

We had a flag for ownership on items. Special items show to imms the name of the person who received that item in a quest. What if we had code in place that allowed players to protect certain items from being taken? Only the owner could possess the item. I can even see an IC way to have it work.

A spell could be devised and made available to the appropriate classes (and mobs) that would work like this: cast "keepsafe" itemname pcname. The spell could then deduct a set amount of glory from the named pc and place the appropriate flag on the item. I believe the flag will need to be created because I can't think of one that currently fits the bill. Then, if a thief attempts to steal the item, or a PC attempts to gain it after a pkill, they would not be able to gain the item and might receive an echo similiar to this - "That object is magically enchanted to resist your every attempt to gain its possession." The spell, of course, would have to be fairly high level and require a hefty-priced component. Maybe a stipulation could be made to limit the amount of protected items a PC can have on their person (including inventory) at any given time.

Possibly, a small program could be added that would allow a player to willing choose to give a protected item away (removekeepsafe itemname) that will only work if the PC activating the removal matches the ownership flag on the item. They'd have to think hard about giving the item away because they'd still be out the original glory they spent on protecting the item.

[Velius]

Then, if a thief attempts to steal the item, or a PC attempts to gain it after a pkill, they would not be able to gain the item and might receive an echo similiar to this - "That object is magically enchanted to resist your every attempt to gain its possession."

Oi!

K, about steal...

I feel that steal has been VERY OOC, you can't say different, would a thief really give the person he stole from another chance to have the stolen item back? It is OOC, and for a good reason I add. Now then, I really like this idea Lathander brought up, it is great IC way to solve an OOC problem, the only problem I have with it is PKills.

With a PKill atleast you know who killed you right? And how often does a character go on a killing spree taking all the items they can from corpses? With PKilling the other person has a chance to run away, whereas a the victom of thievery doesn't get that chance. If you really wanted your item back and you lost it in a PK situation it would allow for a lot of RP. You and the other person can have a rivalry, or you can just end the whole conflict and get your item back in a duel.

I agree with items being flagged to where they can't be stolen because you don't get that chance to run away that you get in a PKill situation.

I just don't think that this should work in a PK situation.

[Kregor]

The main problem with player stealing is that the way the steal mechanic works in FK allows for no opposition. Like every other skill, it's a pass/fail based on your skill level. So if you're trained up to GM on your skill, it's a guarantee if you make your roll, regardless of who the other player is.

Real D&D opposes the action with the spot skill of the target, and anyone else who is in the immediate vicinity of the target as well So if you make the mistake of trying to steal from a PC who is well-trained in spotting, and/or has a high WIS (Oh, look! Something else to make Wisdom NOT a dump stat!), or even worse, in a crowd, you will likely end up being caught. I personally do not think there is enough risk involved with the current FK mechanic for p-stealing to happen without some sort of governance.

[Selveem]

I used to play a game called 'Elusive Dreams' that had a feature much like this. You could 'claim' an item based on quest points you have gained throughout your character career. If it is stolen, for a small portion you can 'cooee' it back (magically transports 1 of the items not in your possession back to you - regardless of being in another person's inventory/bags or on the ground even).

Would it be something similar to this?

[Jaenoic]

I don't really care for Lathander's idea to be honest. It seems unfair to me that the people we are trying to protect, those who have the potential of being wronged by thieves, should have to spend their precious(and limited) glory to protect their items when the fault obviously lies with the inconsiderate people who are wantonly stealing items in the first place.

Inciting people to put things into bags and wearing/holding those bags is not particularly interesting challenge. Overcoming puzzles, collaborating to kill a hard monster, setting up a clever plot with other PCs ... all those are interesting challenges. Remembering to put everything into packs is not what I would call an interesting challenge

Here here! I've always maintained that D&D games(Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale ect) have been games about overcoming puzzles, challenges, and having fun playing your characters rather than games about inventory management. Which they quickly become when every stinking individual gem and at most 40 arrows can be placed in your very limited item slots. Eventually fans released a patch that allowed for everything and its brother to be stacked, thus making inventory management much less painful. Hmmm, not really suggesting anything in specific but just mentioning, but I think it's interesting to see how fans dealt with that problem...

[Zuldere]

What about a timer be placed on all stolen items for x amount of rl time. That gives people a chance to get there item back and a ic reason they can not sell is the item is to hot to sell to a fence at the time

[Zilvryn]

I've got (what I believe to be) a simple solution to how to rectify any problems with this skill..

Dalvyn, you say that Imms don't have access to the log files. Have Mask set up a folder on the game server that can be access by immortals, set the permissions on this folder to read only, in here, you copy the logs that imms might have need of... it's a simple measure to set up a script that copies the log files at the end of each day, appending the old files with any new logs...

Anyone has a problem, send a complaint, and whoever is dealing with the complaint will have easy accesss to at least confirm or deny that X was stolen by X at Z time...

This would at least save any problems with code changes, or removing, what I find, to be a very valuable skill..

Just my thoughts,

E

<awaits to be shot down in flames>

[Alvirin]

That is a cool idea, I support it, having a OOC echo each time that a character steals from a PC would be fine as well.

[Oghma]

I've been somewhat silent on this, mostly reading the responses. I think I am more inclined to see a skill that can be trained by all pc's that counters stealing since it was pointed out that a pc with a gm in steal is unstoppable when they do so, I think a counter like breaking fingers or slapping wrists should be implemented to thwart robberies. If a player has trained it high enough it should never fail, much like a thief with gm steal. That way it is all voluntary.

[Lathander]

What about mounts then?

I still like my idea.

[Oghma]

I like it as well, I just wanted to get mine out in print before I forgot it. Mounts though I feel should be made impervious to steal unless the owner is in the same room. The spell concept is very good, it is nice to be able to track things back to the original owners.

[Glim]

Real D&D opposes the action with the spot skill of the target

I think I am more inclined to see a skill that can be trained by all pc's that counters stealing

*cough*

Spot (yes, the pet name) is a skill we NEED!

*shameless plug*

http://www.gallwey.com/fk/board/viewtop ... light=spot

http://www.gallwey.com/fk/board/viewtop ... light=spot



Thanks,

[Velius]

Just an idea...
I think that an echo of some sort should tell the player that they feel somewhat lighter when they are stolen from. If a thief takes something of yours, the game will say 'you feel somewhat lighter' or something of the sort, and by that point you will notice that you've been stolen from. ( how long it takes you to notice will depend on wisdom maybe? ) The thief cannot leave for 30 rl minutes ( I think already implemented, but just playing out the scenario ). The item is then flagged as stolen, and whenever someone looks at the thief they will be able to notice the stolen item ( again wisdom? ) in the thieves inventory, packs, etc... an echo will say something like 'isn't that item stolen?' The item will remain flagged as stolen til people have forgotten ( several rl hours/weeks/months pending on value of item )

I also liked the idea said before by Zuldere where a timer was placed on said item and the thief had to wait some RL minutes to be able to sell it.

just an idea that suddenly came to my head that I decided to just throw out there.

This idea alone would not stop thieves but itd make them easier to find and have have to keep to the shadows more and RP looking out for guards ( thieves still askin' for RP? )

[Tavik]

I'm not too familiar with thieves (I do have one but rarely play him), but I'm going to throw another idea out there. Basically, start getting PC run organizations back in the game (other than the watch and Zhentarim). Start an actual thieves organization. It would be RP oriented and run much like a faith. Have a couple trust worthy thieves head the thing up and give them the ability to steal from other PCs. Anyone outside this organization cannot steal from other PCs. PC thieves can join this organization by performing some sort of quest (much like a faith quest) and can then work their way up through the ranks. Once they've proven they are "responsible" thieves and can be trusted to steal from other PCs, the org. leader would then enable some option that would permit them to do so. If they abuse it, they lose that privilege permanently. ('m not stealing your idea Rhytania, just modifying it) Thieves wouldn't be required to join this organization by any means, they would just be limited to stealing from mobs.

Just one more idea to add to the list.

[Horace]

I guess I don't understand what good being allowed to steal from PCs, whose players aren't interested in that sort of role play, brings to the game. For everyone who goes away thinking "boy i loved that role play of getting my stuff back" there has to be many more players who just find it a nuisance without a whole lot of value. Player's have things they need to do, real life obligations that often times interrupt out of no where scenes they weren't prepared for.

With PK'ing - a general rule of etiquette is to give the player an opportunity to leave from the scene, and to also provide engaging role playing prior and up to the event. So if a PK scene, which is a scene that eventually leads to code between two PC's determining a conflict, requires both players consent - why wouldn't stealing?

The argument of "that's what my character would do" - has been the cornerstone of all role playing venues to allow the lowest common denominator players to do whatever the hell they want to. Because to do whatever they want to, they just need to make a character who would do whatever the player would want to do. Backwards reasoning IC reactions to situations is a breeze, anyone can do it. Walking into a situation where you as the player have to maneuver your characters motives and personality in a way that both retains the characters identity, personality, and depth, but is also an action made from an OOC perspective that lends empathy to the other player - is a sign of mature role playing, and ultimately leads to the most enjoyment for all involved.

With the config option everyone on this thread who so much enjoys this form of role playing, can leave it open to engage in the role play. And those who don't enjoy it, can shut it off and not become involved.

The idea that a player would enjoy forcing another player's character into a scene they weren't interested in playing out, is just ideologically ill. Seriously, why would anyone want to be in a scene with someone else who didn't want to play with them?