Reflections about stealing

Velius · Post by **Velius** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 3:06 am

Horace wrote:I guess I don't understand what good being allowed to steal from PCs, whose players aren't interested in that sort of role play, brings to the game. For everyone who goes away thinking "boy i loved that role play of getting my stuff back" there has to be many more players who just find it a nuisance without a whole lot of value. Player's have things they need to do, real life obligations that often times interrupt out of no where scenes they weren't prepared for.

With PK'ing - a general rule of etiquette is to give the player an opportunity to leave from the scene, and to also provide engaging role playing prior and up to the event. So if a PK scene, which is a scene that eventually leads to code between two PC's determining a conflict, requires both players consent - why wouldn't stealing?

The argument of "that's what my character would do" - has been the cornerstone of all role playing venues to allow the lowest common denominator players to do whatever the hell they want to. Because to do whatever they want to, they just need to make a character who would do whatever the player would want to do. Backwards reasoning IC reactions to situations is a breeze, anyone can do it. Walking into a situation where you as the player have to maneuver your characters motives and personality in a way that both retains the characters identity, personality, and depth, but is also an action made from an OOC perspective that lends empathy to the other player - is a sign of mature role playing, and ultimately leads to the most enjoyment for all involved.

With the config option everyone on this thread who so much enjoys this form of role playing, can leave it open to engage in the role play. And those who don't enjoy it, can shut it off and not become involved.

The idea that another player would enjoy forcing another player's character into a scene they weren't interested in playing out, is just ideologically ill.

Thieves lack RP. I don't like the idea of stealing, but thats what thieves do and I think it dumb to take away the ability to steal just because players hate being in the situation. Does anyone know what a thief is? The only problem I see is that too many people abuse this PRIVELAGE and anger others. I think that it would definately be a great idea to make a skill for counter-stealing. I also think that thieves shouldn't be able to steal large/weighty items either. Back to the point though, stealing should not be this limited, and should not be blocked off by a config option.

I wish in real life a thief would warn me before he stole from me, but thats not how things work. Although I also think that thieves should play more responsible in this game, as Horace said before 'thats what my character would do' isn't a good excuse...

I think that a couple people should volunteer to watch out for people using the steal command.

I've an idea that might be able to stop this whole ideal, but I'll have to tell you all a bit later

Horace · Post by **Horace** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 3:35 am

I wish in real life a thief would warn me before he stole from me, but thats not how things work.

In the game they wouldn't either - it'd be out of character, not in character. But my point still remains, would you as a player enjoy a scene where you know the other player doesn't want to participate in - but winds up doing it anyway because of inventory loss? You think it'd be fun to play with someone who doesn't want to be in the scene to begin with?

Dalvyn · Post by **Dalvyn** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:26 am

Re: spot vs steal

Yes, that's indeed how it works in tabletop. I have 2 reasons why I am really not in favour of this system though.

Reason 1: yet another skill to train up? Were I a player, I would not want to be told that if I don't like being robbed, I just have to spend x hours training up my "spot" skill. I do not want to have to spend hours doing unIC things with a friend to try and increase my spot skill just to get a higher chance at spotting thefts.

Reason 2: I don't think that solves the main problem. Imagine a table-top game where the DM would have thieves steal things from the party's characters each time they visit a town. I doubt the players would come back to play with that DM. Now, remove the "each time" part from my sentence above and replace it with "now and then". Imagine a table-top game where the DM would have thieves steal things from the party's characters randomly, now and then. Wouldn't the players be pissed off at that DM? I, for one, would consider that, if the DM does not have any solid reasons to do it (e.g., start a new adventure by motivating the PCs to chase off the thieves), then this is a rather bad DM. Move those observations to the world and FK... and my conclusion is that, even if we have "spot", the P-stealing problem remains.

As a side note, I think that we DO need a spot skill, to counter hide; and I do think that this skill should also apply to counter steal, but it's not a solution to the problem raised in this thread in my opinion.

Re: spending glory to keep safe some objects

I think I agree wholeheartedly with Horace. Before setting up systems for keeping some objects safe, we should perhaps first try to answer the question: why do we have P-stealing in the game? What is the "added value" brought by allowing PCs to steal from other PCs and their mounts?

I fail to see any convincing answer to this question in this thread. I recognize that some thefts DO have an added value (a few examples were cited), but 90% of the P-thefts only produce one result: frustration. Good thefts that lead to interesting story and add interesting events to the characters' histories do have an added value, but the vast majority of thefts, where objects are taken just to be sold (and thus lost) add nothing to the game.

In answer to "thieves steal, so we should not impede them from doing so", I would raise 2 points: (a) thieves can still rob mobs if they want to make a living out of stealing; and (b) there aren't any thieves in 3rd edition, only rogues; and rogues are much more than just a "steal" skill; so much more that just removing the option to steal from PCs would not annihilate the class.

Rhytania · Post by **Rhytania** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:04 am

To me PSteal is no Different than a PK. Any argument you make against a Psteal can also be applied to a PK. Im not going to lie, a well planed, well executed PSteal is more exhilirating to me than a PK by far. People underestimate stealing as oh thieves go walking around randomly stealing. So many things can go wrong with a PSteal that you never know of you will be succesful no matter how high your skill. First of all if you fail your automatically attacked, then your name is yelled out for the whole zone "SO&SO is a bloody thief!" wether you are hidden/disguised/invisible. This is why you set plans and contingencies. Even if succesful you only have a limited time to survive before your ferreted out. A good thief generally has knows he has less than a minute to survive before he gets sniffed out. All in all I think alot of people have some misconceptions about a class they dont fully understand the ins and outs about. I say as long as this mud remains a PK one it should also remain PSteal.

I love Taviks idea of reviving the thieves organisations. They have been dead far too long and with the current playerbase could see a healthy return and generate some good RP across the board. We set up a ranger council to weed out bad apples from the rangers guild, why not set up something similiar for thieves?

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Zilvryn · Post by **Zilvryn** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:48 am

A council's not a bad idea, I really like that thought.

[edit]It's also far more IC for thieves than the concept of the Ranger Council is.

Alvirin · Post by **Alvirin** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:49 pm

Although I will welcome a player-run thieves guild, I would like to remind everyone that most rogues who start a thieving career are far from being good and IC they will care little of stealing a bag or from a mount.

What would be IC for a thief isn't OOC right, so OOC considerations must be taken.

Laitaine · Post by **Laitaine** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 1:14 pm

This is true, but if a city has an established thieves' guild operating within it, it is highly unlikely it would suffer any 'rogue' elements (no pun intended. Well alright, maybe slightly intended...) potentially damaging business. It's no more OOC than the rangers' council really and I think the good outweighs the bad.

I think a thieves council like the 'rangers council' could be justified - not only would it help make sure thieves know exactly what is expected of them, it would create a platform for more roleplay.

Oh - and don't forget the bards, they'd need to be included too.

Alvirin · Post by **Alvirin** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 1:37 pm

I think that a player-run thieves guild deserves his own separate topic

To avoid derailing the original thread, I have created a separate one to discuss this idea, feel free to comment there all ideas related to player-run thieves guild.

Feel free to comment it here:
http://www.gallwey.com/fk/board/viewtopic.php?t=6933

Dalvyn · Post by **Dalvyn** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 4:43 pm

I'm answering a bit sooner than planned, because I think that some points were missed.

Rhytania wrote:To me PSteal is no Different than a PK. Any argument you make against a Psteal can also be applied to a PK.

I agree with this principle. And I will point out that

(1) We have very strict rules about pkill, Pkills are not "free for all".
(2) We distinguish heavily between killing mobs and killing PCs; the first one is NOT restricted, the second one is restricted.
(3) Serial Pkillers are not authorized on FK. The reason is that we don't want players to fear moving around and exploring because there might be a pkiller hidden there whose only goal is to make other people's lives miserable. Why then should "serial Pstealers" be allowed?
(4) Pkills need to be motivated; you need a good IC reason to start a Pkill. Why should "psteals" that are not backed up with rps, or that are only motivated by "I want to steal and be rich" be allowed?
(5) A rule of thumb is that you can always make your way out of a pkill (as long as you do not hide between this rule to avoid the consequences of your actions); that rules allow players who have no interest in pkilling to not be bothered by it. Why should those who have no interest in "feeling the constant danger of being robbed" be forced to endure it?

People underestimate stealing as oh thieves go walking around randomly stealing. So many things can go wrong with a PSteal that you never know of you will be succesful no matter how high your skill. First of all if you fail your automatically attacked, then your name is yelled out for the whole zone "SO&SO is a bloody thief!" wether you are hidden/disguised/invisible. This is why you set plans and contingencies. Even if succesful you only have a limited time to survive before your ferreted out. A good thief generally has knows he has less than a minute to survive before he gets sniffed out. All in all I think alot of people have some misconceptions about a class they dont fully understand the ins and outs about.

Yes, I can see where that might be all very fun for the thieves, but the example above is mob-stealing, not P-stealing. I think that mob-stealing is very much alright, and I don't think that anyone wants it removed. The topic here is stealing from PCs.

I say as long as this mud remains a PK one it should also remain PSteal.

Does this mean that we should allow rampant pkill and remove the restrictions on it?

Now, don't take those attacks personnally. I have seen some good psteals from you. But for every one good Psteal, there are 10 bad Psteals by players who absolutely do not care about other people's enjoyment of the game.

I'm not sure if more precise information is going to be disclosed or not, but I know that Lathander has had to deal with a rampant bad Pstealer recently. Not only does it cause him to spend time on that instead of on his roleplay, but it also creates an incredible amount of frustration amongst the several players who have been his victims.

I think that an ideal system would be a system where Pstealing (from PC or from minions) is not allowed, except for some characters who have proved they are mature enough to handle it. Then again, how do you prove that you can handle it without being to actually do it in the first place? And what's the role of favouritism in the imms' decision of who is allowed to psteal and who is not?

Velius · Post by **Velius** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 4:51 pm

Dalvyn wrote:I think that an ideal system would be a system where Pstealing (from PC or from minions) is not allowed, except for some characters who have proved they are mature enough to handle it. Then again, how do you prove that you can handle it without being to actually do it in the first place? And what's the role of favouritism in the imms' decision of who is allowed to psteal and who is not?

I posted a decent way to solve the problem on the forum started by Alvirin

Well, basically the thief council/guild would host a channel and everyone with the steal skill was aloud in the channel. You'd have to ask if you were aloud to steal the item, why you wanted to steal the item, and the a person from the council would authorise you to commit the act and possibly watch you RP it out and what not... you can check it out in the link given by Alvirin though

Laitaine · Post by **Laitaine** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 5:40 pm

Asking if you can steal every time you want to steal puts a serious cramp on those times when you might spot a perfect crime of opportunity that would be a great RP platform. The shining gem shards would be an example of that - the moment was there, it was seized. If the thief had been in a discussion about whether or not s/he could filch them, the moment would have been lost.

I agree that Psteal should be subject to the same level of rules and restriction as Pkill as both have a massive impact on the player they are committed against. I also agree with each and every one of Dalvyn's points - and I'd be quite happy to see people who break the rules losing the skill. A Psteal should be rare - much as Pkills should be.

Zuldere · Post by **Zuldere** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 11:10 pm

Why do we not set up clear guide line for pstealing as we have for pking with punishiment for breaking such rules.
rules 1 no stealing of bags. Icly a person carries way to much in a bag not to notice it missing to begin with.
2 no stealing from mounts or pets. A well train mount or pet would not lety a stranger close to them to begin with let alone let someone touch it.
I seen a post a way back about stealing off a knights horse how icly it could not be done for one reason or another.
3 as with a pk enough time must elapse before said thief can log off or sell the item and a reasonable attamt be allowed for owner to bargan to retrieve said item.
4 Only one item may be stolen from any person in a allowed time ( a timer would start when a attempt good or bad happens like the one used when fighting that does not let the thief to steal from mob or player for a set time)

These are just a few I just thought of add to it as you like.

Rhytania · Post by **Rhytania** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 1:23 am

Dalvyn: every one of your points is valid, my point is to treat Psteal like a PK. Get a hard written in stone guideline put out for all to see. Make players who choose the rogue class understand that they would be held accountable. And just like blatantly disregard pkills are treated, treat the psteal the same way. Im not asking to lessen the punishment or severity of psteal, but to draw the line in the sand for all to see and hold people accountable for their actions. If a person decides to serial psteal treat them as a pkiller. If they decide to not follow through with RP treat them as you would a unmotivated pkill. I think this coupled with a thieves council will greatly improve the situation.

Another idea that can tie in nicely is to split the skill in to 2 forms to mug and steal. Mug can be picked up by the low levels to steal as a sort of comabt initiating action much like a dirtkick or a backstab hence lessening the chance it will be used against a pc. Steal will be the more advanced skill that can be restricted and given to only the higher levels via the council or apprenticeship which will give the the finesse to be able to do so while hidden and not initiate combat on a success. Any infractions or misuse of the skill will be dealt with harshly and accordingly.

Kregor · Post by **Kregor** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 1:45 am

We can head some of the pet stealing issues off at the pass.

If you know of a civilized and/or populated area in the game (this includes, free standing temples not in a city, towns, cities, sizable villages, encampments, etc) that has no coded stable (ie, no stable that will exchange coin for a token and take your pet away to safe keeping), PM me the name of the area. If I find it to have no coded stable, if vnums allow, I will make sure one is coded. Then this will help offer safe haven for the pets in the game, and leave less excuses for leaving the pet unguarded.

Xerarack · Post by **Xerarack** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 4:17 am

I like the idea of a counter skill to steal one that might provide an echo for only the victim that might go like "You see so&so holding something of yours" not that it would echo everytime, but this would create some sort of RP between the victim and the theif, or maybe the echo would go off as the theif leaves so there is oppertunity for a snach and run, but still RP

Mariela · Post by **Mariela** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 4:18 am

Here comes a healthy dose of.... well...blantant reason:

If theives are a problem...... and cannot abide by rules set down..

The IM's can Giveth and the IM's can Taketh Away in my opinion.

We don't -need- PC thieves. Every last one of them can be converted into a fighter or a flat out rouge in my opinion and maybe grandfathered out if it's that big of a problem. (Yes. I said it. Deal.)

That being said...
I leave things in my inventory as much as I can as my characters. I would never leave on a config no steal. Cause if you have theives in the game, you have to come with a healthy dose of leaving the option open to be stolen from. It's fun. But then again, I also do not get so attached to my quest items that I mind when one goes missing and I don't notice it.

I thought about this for a few days and I think it's unfair that Thieves function on a level in the game involving no "paperwork" to do their craft. Even bards have to submit something to get their twinkies, so should the thieves have to do some paperwork to conduct their craft... so here's my ideas for the table...

When you steal something from a PC you have to have it sent to somewhere, wether that is the master of this player thief guild that everyone is talking about, or the IM's the following:

-What the object is.
-When you stole it.
-Where you stole it from (Location or person name)
-Optionally What you want from the object.

That way, it's tons easily for people who want their loot back to be able to apply for gaining it back.

I would also say that a copy/paste the actual thieving would be a good thing to include in it... so you can say it was absolutely across the board.

(I also think you should have to do something simular in a PKill situation. That way.. all buts are covered! Especially if you TAKE an OBJECT from someone in a PKill.)

I also basically thought that maybe we should lock the ability to thief off the PC characters UNLESS you apply for permission to steal. Maybe a permit to steal from Jan 14 - Jan 31st... and then your lock is turned off so you can steal at your lesiure as long as you submit the results back. That way, there is only so many people thieving at a given time.

Also maybe restricting how many thieves are operational in the game at large. I mean, seriously, if it's that big of a problem, maybe there can only be 10 'active' thieves at atime before the game starts forbidding them to me made?

Something to think about.

Jaenoic · Post by **Jaenoic** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 4:42 am

It's great to regulate Psteals and lay down more rules for safety, but the problem we have already is that we have such rules, and people are still breaking them. In my opinion establishing more rules will not help any, because the problem people just break them anyway. More rules will just limit and hurt the people who do it responsibly. For example, Zuldere, you suggested some great rules. But with the exception of stealing from pets they're all already rules surrounding Psteal, and at present they are being broken.

The idea of having thieves send in a log of their steal is a little too trusting, because the problem thieves just won't bother to do it. Sure, we'll catch them in the end and punish them for constantly breaking the rule, but that already happens. I'd rather see a solution to bad Psteals that prevents rather than punishes after the fact.

One such solution is stripping the ability to Psteal from rogues and give it only to experienced and trusty rogues. Maybe separate stealing from mobs and PCs into two skills, I'm not sure how the coding would work. Then if a rogue believes s/he is trustworthy enough to have steal from PCs skill then they'll e-mail applications. People may complain bitterly about favoritism but let's be honest; the imm staff is pretty honorable and if they refuse you the skill chances are it's not them it's you. =P Even if they don't like you for whatever reason, probably you've brought that dislike on yourself by breaking rules, being rude, being arrogant, ect. in the past.

Existing rogues may complain about this solution but honestly I don't think the mud will miss much. I can think of one example only of a Psteal that really added something, and RPs like that can continue if responsible people retain the ability to Psteal.

Lathander · Post by **Lathander** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 4:45 am

I hate paperwork.

Mariela · Post by **Mariela** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 5:29 am

I also hate paperwork.

To be honest, I don't think the introduction to FK when you are being told pick a class, really tells you enough about the rules involving that class. If there are super rules involving thieves.... they should be RIGHT THERE and then a button that says, "Are you sure you wanna be a thief?"

There are lots of rules that you don't see until you blantantly run into someone who says.. "Umm.. here's the deal, xyz."

I still say, if things like the bards have to submit and heck we cannot even control what we post and what we publish.. it has to be filtered through the IM's.... then so do the thieves.

Maybe there needs to be a quest inserted kinda like the rangers do, to allow someone to become a "thief". You gotta get a mentor who shadows you and make certain you arent' going to ruin it for everyone. And then you apply for the switch over to full thief status. Granted this SUCKS for everyone who is already at theif.. but it'd make a huge RP thing for anyone who comes in new to the game. (If I am thinking the ranger thing goes like I think it does..... as I have never done it... I can't say from personal experiance.. but from hearing from others who have went through it... )

Duranamir · Post by **Duranamir** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 10:47 am

I profoundly agree that stealing can be worse than pkill in many ways, in pkill you may lose one item but you generally know who has taken it, they after all just killed you. But in stealing you often have no idea, and realistically nor should you know who stole the object or objects from you. This makes it very hard for the person who has been stolen from to initate any kind of RP to get the items back unless the thief chooses to tell you.

What is the point of stealing objects from another player anyway ? rarely in the course of a special RP would a thief actually want a specific item and in that case an IMM would probably be involved anyway. I would of though more generraly they would just want money, money is after all untraceable and immediatley useable.

How about changing steal to a new skill pickpocket that only steals money, it could steal money from any in a purse or money pouch or the inventory. This would allow thiefs to be thiefs if they wish, and make a profit from there skills. But would remove the contentious issue of taking valued objects away from there owners. I certainly would mind loosing a few coins, but not nearly as much as loosing a needed quest item for example.

Player run thieves guilds is certainly not a bad thing as it will encourage RP and help to educate new young thiefs, a council of thieves could also be a really good idea.

I do agree with Mariela that one important thing to do right now is to state up front what the rules are as far as being a thief and using steal, that way no one can claim they did not know. If someone knowingly breaks the rules they should be punished severely.

Duranamir