Reflections about stealing

[Ceara]

I haven't read the thread in it's entirety, some posts here and there as I log in each day so forgive me if I repeat someone else's point.

I'm a bit on the fence with this one. There are two sides, one I like Rhytania's suggestion of only being to steal from pc's if given permission because you are responsible and for rp purposes, that's ok by me, I don't steal from pc's to begin with.
However I do NOT agree with yet ANOTHER class being made so that you would need to go through pc's in order to join, it is far too biased and too open to abuse. I was aghast when I found out you now need permission from a pc to become a ranger. Then when I read the requirements some of which are not what I envision when I think of a ranger but rather a druid. Not to mention the fact that pc's come and go and it can be difficult finding one who can get you into that class.

On the flip side, my characters have been stolen from when I was a newb, because of that I do not leave anything in my inventory unless I absolutely have to, if I need to leave a bag of stuff I try to ensure it is things my char can live without. It used to say right in creation that there are thieves and if you don't want something stolen to wear it or put in a pack. So if someone leaves something open to be stolen, I think it's their own fault and they shouldn't complain.

As for guilds dictating rp, there are some poorly rp'd thieves, more experienced thieves tend to try to teach them and if they don't want to learn they tend to outcast from others of their class. This is without any guild organization but simply the nature of the class, not many want to be known as a thief, it takes away the advantage.

By the same token if someone goes around stealing from pc's all the time, it's just mean oocly but if they want to be mean that's their perogative, they will eventually be caught by the wrong person.

With all this ranting I've come to the conclusion that I am adamantly against another pc run guild in order to become the class. People who are stolen from will learn better or should the first time and should rp it out and deal with it, or make it so you can only steal from mobs period.
The only thing I might change is to put the warning about thieves back into creation if it's not there.

[Zilvryn]

We can head some of the pet stealing issues off at the pass.

If you know of a civilized and/or populated area in the game (this includes, free standing temples not in a city, towns, cities, sizable villages, encampments, etc) that has no coded stable (ie, no stable that will exchange coin for a token and take your pet away to safe keeping), PM me the name of the area. If I find it to have no coded stable, if vnums allow, I will make sure one is coded. Then this will help offer safe haven for the pets in the game, and leave less excuses for leaving the pet unguarded.

Agreed, but every time i've walked in the Lucky Drunk stables in the past month, there has been at least one mount or pet in there...

Some people are too cheap to stable their mounts, and then get the hump when I ICly mention that their mounts are liable to run wild, or get stolen..

[Zilvryn]

Dalvyn: every one of your points is valid, my point is to treat Psteal like a PK. Get a hard written in stone guideline put out for all to see. Make players who choose the rogue class understand that they would be held accountable. And just like blatantly disregard pkills are treated, treat the psteal the same way. Im not asking to lessen the punishment or severity of psteal, but to draw the line in the sand for all to see and hold people accountable for their actions. If a person decides to serial psteal treat them as a pkiller. If they decide to not follow through with RP treat them as you would a unmotivated pkill. I think this coupled with a thieves council will greatly improve the situation.

Another idea that can tie in nicely is to split the skill in to 2 forms to mug and steal. Mug can be picked up by the low levels to steal as a sort of comabt initiating action much like a dirtkick or a backstab hence lessening the chance it will be used against a pc. Steal will be the more advanced skill that can be restricted and given to only the higher levels via the council or apprenticeship which will give the the finesse to be able to do so while hidden and not initiate combat on a success. Any infractions or misuse of the skill will be dealt with harshly and accordingly.

I agree with this entirely. Draw the line in the sand, any that step over, they're accountable for their actions..

[Velius]

Another PC run class?
Now then, I'm ready to make my true neutral, aethiest, fighter human...

I thought steal was the problem? Not the whole class

[Horace]

It used to say right in creation that there are thieves and if you don't want something stolen to wear it or put in a pack. So if someone leaves something open to be stolen, I think it's their own fault and they shouldn't complain.

It also says that the roads are dangerous, so travel in groups. That doesn't give free reign for people to pkill anyone not traveling in a group. Should those people just lump it too - and always no matter what travel in a group?

Packs/carts get full, you run out of wearable slots...everyone is playing the game to have fun. If you get your fun from ruining someone else's fun, then those are the people who should "deal with it" and just accept not being able to steal from PC's.

This command gives nothing to the game when used on PC's. The same arguments about how phantasmal killer shouldn't be used in pkills, applies to the steal command.

I don't understand why it's being defended - all it does it cause out of character conflict. I believe it was Johnny Cochran, on another mud, who once said "If the command causes conflict, you must restrict!".

I rest my case.

[Ceara]

Losing an item which you can prevent the loss of is hardly the same as losing your life. As I said I don't steal from pc's but if it happens to me I deal with it icly I don't ask the imms to remove or restrict the command. It can be prevented. Are there not already rules in place that you cannot steal from mounts or carts?

[Lathander]

There is no rule preventing stealing from mounts or carts.

[Ceara]

I thought there was, because the pc can't defend against that. So I would agree there should be a rule against stealing from carts or pets, but anything in a char's inventory is fair game unless they are afk or linkdead

[Horace]

Losing an item which you can prevent the loss of is hardly the same as losing your life. As I said I don't steal from pc's but if it happens to me I deal with it icly I don't ask the imms to remove or restrict the command. It can be prevented. Are there not already rules in place that you cannot steal from mounts or carts?

From an in character perspective - you're 100% correct. From a player courtesy perspective, I'd much rather have my character die than be stolen from. That's what the topic is about, the out of character aspect - I think we can all agree that dieing is worse than property loss from an in character perspective.

There are some rules on steal, but they aren't easily enforceable. I imagine it's rare to actually get caught in the act. And retroactively catching someone probably takes a chunk of time that can be better used toward something productive, as opposed to doling out punishments.

And as you've said, most responsible thieves rarely if ever steal from PC's anyhow. It's not taking anything substantial away from the class of responsible players, it's only removing an option that is abused. Worse than just abused - abused against other PC's. In my eyes, because of that, it's way worse than nearly every other command that has been banned.

[Velius]

I thought there was, because the pc can't defend against that. So I would agree there should be a rule against stealing from carts or pets, but anything in a char's inventory is fair game unless they are afk or linkdead

I've yet to be stolen from ( I keep all my stuff in packS ), I've always remembered what the noob dude said on the nub-creation thing 'Keep your stuff safe and sound in your wonderful pack'. I agree that everything SHOULD be fairgame with PCs, but the problem is people don't like being stolen from.

I'd suggest putting stuff in packs if you don't like being stolen from, remember that you can put a pack inside a pack if you want to save inventory space. I'm feeling sorry for the thieves now cuz thieves... well they aren't called THIEVES for nothing. The thieves are complaining about what little RP they get and what little action they get in groups ( the lesser fighter I'm hearin ) Well, I feel that thieves should be able to steal whenever some non-careful person leaves their wonderful item open
for the taking. I've yet to make a thief character, but that is next on my todo list, and I hope that the class doesn't get nerfed due to 'bad-apples' and the uncareful

I'm not trying to hurt any feelings or whatnot but I don't want a perfectly good class to get ...... messed up

People should just be careful.

EDITED TO ADD: I guess if we have to change steal a bit so it wouldn't be abused it'd be fine, as long as the whole class doesn't pay

[Taerom]

I've played this game for (I'm pretty sure) over 5 years, and never been stolen from, as far as I know. However, I also keep anything valuable stashed in my backpack, worn, or on a stabled mount. I think that thieves, and the steal command, belong in the game (Maybe I'm biased from playing a kleptomaniac thief on another mud...). It's a part of FR, and D&D at large, and I'm still surprised more player theft doesn't go on. It keeps the game interesting, to me.

[Arothian]

Just my thoughts on stealing from PCs. Take it as you will, but I'm going to be very blunt on how I feel about this topic.

I can't really even believe this is being considered. In my opinion, there is only one thing that allowing PCs to be stolen from will do: Piss off players that have things stolen from them on a whim. There is way too much room for abuse with this, and it just irritates me when people say it is more "realistic" or more "entertaining and interesting". I disagree. I have no problem with having things stolen, if players communicate and set things up before hand. Having things randomly stolen in the name of RP just frustrates and annoys. I like to be included in RPs, but I absolutely hate being FORCED into RPs. That's what this would do.

Now, this is not saying that bad things do not happen to characters. Arothian has somehow managed in the short time I've been playing on FK (about 4 months now) to be shunned by not only one of the leaders of the faith he was looking to join, but also by some of the heroes of legend.

Tangent aside, I think that causing this sort of conflict both IC and OOC is just a bad idea. The worst RP comes from people that are forced into it.

Just my thoughts, do with them what you will.

[Zuldere]

I agree with Duranamir about a the skill pickpocket instead of steal it would save some trouble in the long run. But I still think steal should be in the game as well as a pc train skill not a mob train one in which it must be rped learning from a higher lv thief as well as a application to the imm request to learn it. That way the imm cam be sure the thief learning the skill can handle it and put enough rp to it.
I also think that pickpocket be a skill where hiding has no succes on the out come and that there be a echo for any fail attepts. Like so and so pickpocket noname....noname fells a tug on his money pouch by soso for a failed attamp and perhaps a pass/fail attemp maybe soso pickpockets from noname....noname fells someone bump into him.

[Mele]

I'd typed out a big reply but it just comes down to this:


Why is my thief going to be punished because bob has no restraint? Take bob's steal and leave me be, I rp my steals, have never sold an item I've stolen, and don't use it for anything more than playful rp.

Furthermore, I'm completely against theft from pets, and immediate sales after theft, or log offs. But for normal RP attempts at theft, seriously, do you carry your things irl available to be stolen? Clean your inventory, otherwise you have no room to oocly complain. It's not that hard to wear a bag on your belt, and put your things in it. Theft for uses of RP usually means that the item will not be lost to you forever, only used for rp then returned after RP.

[Zilvryn]

Whenever I, or with one of my "associates", steals something from a PC it's always accompanied with an emote/smote along these lines:

"Rennyn stumbles slightly, bumping into $GankedPerson as he falls."

After that, either I, or my beautiful assistant will go for the steal.

As Mele said, why should those that -do- RP our steals get punished for others.

Set out the rules so everyone knows, log the thefts, allow the imms access to the logs, punish those that do not adhere to them.

I fail to see what's so complicated, the thief class has already been nerfed with the changes to dodge, don't nerf it anymore..

[Taerom]

It's laughably easy to not be stolen from, I will never understand the problem here -- however, I do seem to recall that it's not legal to steal a bag from someone's inventory, because logically, how do you grab a bag from someone's hands without their knowledge?

[Velius]

Heres my take, some thieves do steal just to sell items and make cash, though others use steal to obtain items they need/want. You know what, their is something already made to stop people from stealing, you don't even need a config option! Its called the pack. You see, you can put valuable stuff you want in a pack so the thieves can't steal it. Thieves don't always steal just to "piss people off", and they don't always "randomly steal". It'd suck if you had to say to a player "Hey Bob, I want that dagger that you didn't put in your pack, am I aloud to steal it?". You know what'd happen? The Bob and his band o' goodies would look at you, unpolitely say no, possibly tell others that you are a thief, and use that OOC info to make sure their alts stay away from you.
I think everyone should be fair-game but the link-dead and the AFK.

[Zilvryn]

It's laughably easy to not be stolen from, I will never understand the problem here -- however, I do seem to recall that it's not legal to steal a bag from someone's inventory, because logically, how do you grab a bag from someone's hands without their knowledge?

It's not even possible currently, I believe Mask changed the way the code works so that it works on weight, so, a heavy bag can't get ganked.

[Oghma]

I always assumed it was illegal to steal from pets that were left in a town or city with a stable that could not code stable mounts. This might have changed though in the past while as many stables have been coded into areas that they have been without.

[Zilvryn]

No, I believe the ruling was if there was not a coded stable, like in the High Forest, but it was a stable building, you could leave your horse there with impunity and it was to be treated as if your mount was in a coded stable.

So, you are correct.