Reflections about stealing

[Lathander]

Some of the items stolen recently from mounts were containers.

[Zilvryn]

My mistake then, I was sure that something had been done to at least factor in the weight of the item being stolen to increase the difficulty of the steal..

*shrug*

[Horace]

Of course it's easy to always put things in bags immediately when you get them. But it's also easy to count to 20. I don't particularly like counting to 20 a dozen times a day just because it's easy.

[Mele]

So because you're too lazy to put something in a bag, it's my bad if I steal it for RP? It's every thiefs bad because you didn't want to go out of your way to put something in a bag that a bad thief stole and sold it?

The code allows people to take care of their things from theft just as easily as it allows them to steal. Whether or not you choose to use the options is not the fault of an entire class due to a few poor stealers.

[Horace]

It's not a matter of laziness. It's just not something I want to focus on in game. I want to worry about PC growth, character milestones, building relationships and rivalries between other PC's in a way that is engaging and fun. As someone said before me, inventory management, as a game feature, isn't something that appeals to me. I don't get very much enjoyment out of rearranging stuff.

What is so harmful from removing it? You said yourself you only use it for playful RP's. I've known you long enough, that I'm 100% certain you'll find another way to engage in a playful RP without stealing.

The way it is now, from how I've seen it used. Rogue characters use it to upset other characters, usually as a reaction to something else (just being general, i feel its the most common usage).

Caster types don't go around cursing or blinding people - even if they did, it's a couple platinum fix.

Warrior types don't just kill you - even if they did, it's a loss of some time.

And if those things did become a problem (because, they are annoying), it'd be addressed. The steal command, used on PC's - is akin to a wizard cursing someone and being able to choose whether or not it can be dispelled. It puts a lot...an awful lot...of responsibility on the shoulders of the thief. This skill is unique in that nature. And to disregard that is a step backwards.

If all thieves were played by you, I wouldn't have a problem. But that's not the case. They are an open class after a very short time period. And I sincerely feel the responsible players are competent enough to shift focuses of their rp to remain engaging, when they may have, back in the day, chose to steal. Removing the skill from working on PC's doesn't make the responsible players any less relevant or interesting...it only removes the corrosive effects it can have on players who were abused by it.

[Hrosskell]

My post isn't so much on steal, as the idea of a thief council. While I agree with the notion of a roleplay-based council whole-heartedly, there are some concepts I cannot agree with.

My thief has worked with others many times. Those same thieves that he has worked with, he has turned on, and gutted before. The world of a thief is not just stealing from good-aligned PCs and watching them cry, or lurking around and dancing with their fancy stolen goods. The world of a thief is all about intrigue, and very heavily influenced by roleplay. A thief cannot survive without allies - but who is to decide who is aligned with who? A council doesn't make much sense to me, because anyone who roleplays a thief can tell you that the alliances between thieves are more akin to glaciers than rocks - apparently solid, but underneath, they are shifty, and often fueled by double motives. A unified council seems shady for roleplay, at best, because the thieves are not a unified people. As aforementioned, they are jacks of all trades.

My suggestion for this? Have it necessary for a thief to have a patron into a school. Almost like the wizard-apprentice idea, but it is certainly more necessary, and almost more feasible - a wizard can read books, a fighter can practice moves, and a cleric can pray and meditate - a thief, however, should be shown the ropes. Have it necessary to do intensive training and classes on thieving, even more into detail than the current thieves' guilds now. And maybe the "council" could be made up of patron-thieves - that would add even more roleplay to the struggle for power among the thiefly people; I know that when I first started Graham, my excuse to show young rogues the schools were that they could be considered allies later. I would give them lessons, and show them the ropes, and then when their time came, I would do the very mob-gangster-esque thing, and ask of them a favor, or something like that.

P.S. - If this has all been said, then don't mind my ramble. I never can read all five pages of a hot topic.

P.S.S. - If this solves any problem with not knowing how to behave yourself in an OOC manner, then I think that pstealing should be quite allowed. I don't think I've went into a steal situation without the mindset and reverence that a PKill situation requires, and if it can be made more clear that stealing from a person is much akin to killing a person, perhaps the roleplay will be done better, and fewer poor steals will be executed.
ALSO, players who are not thieves in the past were very aware that well-skilled thieves existed, and they took the necessary precautions to avoid being robbed. I don't know where the schism was, but it doesn't seem like people care to take the precautions, when they're warned from the very beginning in training temples that items can and will be stolen.

[Velius]

I'm against all things player-run, unless there is a character on the same hours I am on, I find it a nuissance to sit and wait, and wait, and wait for me to meet up with someone, prove myself in an IC way that I am worthy of joining whatever there is to join, then find out I have to go and I have to meet up at another time... then it goes on and on and on...

That said I will admit that I am not a patient person, I RP well, but I can't continue to RP when I have to wait every step of the way to move forward. I'm not mad at anyone, I'm just not patient and hate having to go through a process that shouldn't even exist. I'd hate for the Thief class to turn into another Rangers Guild, I hope we can clear the problem with steal without slowing down the thieving process or nerfing the whole class, as said before why can't people learn how to place there items in their packs?

[Mele]

Honestly, this just makes me feel like saying

"I don't feel like wearing armour to help protect against fourth and fifth attack, take that away."

"I don't feel like casting silence on Priest/Wizard, take spells away."

Are we trying to be a Mush here? Every skill in game has an unfair advantage to other classes. It is what makes CLASSES.

My point is not that you need steal for playful RP, it's that for the most part on the whole of the mud, that's what it's used for. Why are we presenting this forward that makes it seem like all thieves are ooc jerks who take items that people worked oh so hard for.

If it's really that much of a bother than the kismet cost for rogues should be upped so that younger newer players aren't running around with steal 100 hours into FK.

When I think of thief skills the only thing uncomparable to a fighter is steal. Pick lock? Psh, unimpressive, doorbash will work fine. A trap? Who cares, I have a good amount of HP, I'll take it. Hidden doors? No big, that wizard/priest/bard with true sight has me hooked up.

Steal makes thieves unique. Plain and simple. And even then, there's a thin line. Need that item from a mobile? Steal, psh, kill it.

Imms having taken skills from people for less. I can't see why it is an entire class should suddenly suffer. It's not like people have never had skills taken from them for abusing them before. And maybe it's time we look more into stealing rules and make it so it IS illegal to steal from mounts.

Feels to my like removing steal is taking the easy way out. Not putting things in your inventory. Easy way out. It's not hard to think of your inventory. You don't need to be paranoid. Do you think of locking your doors when you leave home? No, you just do it.

[Velius]

If it's really that much of a bother than the kismet cost for rogues should be upped so that younger newer players aren't running around with steal 100 hours into FK.

The kismet requirement is fine as it is, 200 hours is a lot of time
g2g

[Horace]

Why are we presenting this forward that makes it seem like all thieves are ooc jerks who take items that people worked oh so hard for.

I think it's the minority who use it appropriately.

Steal makes thieves unique. Plain and simple. And even then, there's a thin line. Need that item from a mobile? Steal, psh, kill it.

I agree. Steal is a great skill that sets rogues apart from other classes. But just like Phantasmal Killer is a fun spell that makes wizards a little neater - it doesn't have a place being used on PC's.

Not putting things in your inventory. Easy way out.

It's not about ease. It's about what we want the nature of the game to be. The skill is open to abuse. Just like other skills that were open to abuse, and banned - this skill is unique because the abuse is paramountly done to other players. How did they solve the phantasmal killer problem? No pkill with phantasmal killer til saves are implemented. Most wizards recognize it's cheap and agree with the ruling.

Gameplay would be so minimally effected for the responsible players - and the abuse would be halted. The game itself will become more player friendly. And I think that is the direction we want the game to evolve toward.

[Dalvyn]

Imms can't take skills away from people. We can set their skills down to 0 (Unknown), but they can then retrain them happily.

My opinion about "you just have to put things into bags". Were it that simple, that might be a solution to the problem. But that does not solve anything. Packs can still be stolen from your inventory, so it's not as simple as putting things safely into packs. (And I'm not even talking about the option to steal whole packs from mounts).

I know that, on my main character, I used to something like 3 or 4 packs. One was a crate filled with potions; another one was filled with roleplay items; a third one was filled with all kinds of food; then I also has a spell component bag, and a pack with various things (including combat gears). Why didn't I wear that pack? Because I prefered to wear my faith cloak instead. Don't tell me that I should remove my faith cloak and wear my backpack instead, to make sure that my belongings are safe!

As for steal being the only star shining in the rogues' night sky, that's true. Thieves currently suck. I honestly don't know why we do not yet have sneak attacks. I would guess it would be relatively simple to have something like:

Code: Select all

Rogue hits opponent X.
if another_member_of_rogue's_party also attacks X,
and X is not undead/golem/plant/otherwise_immune_to_sneak_attacks
    then damage is increased by (level_of_thief/5)d6

*THAT* would be another very bright star shining for the rogues. And that might not be the only one: if skill points are ever introduced (or if characters are allowed to take in out-of-guild-skills), rogues would also be the ones who would gain access to the most varied selection of skills.

So... I definitely do not think that taking out PC-stealing from rogues would damage the class badly (nor would that suddenly turn FK into a mush; the difference between MUDs and MUSHes is not simply whether or not thieves can rob you).

[Mele]

I'm not saying you shouldn't wear that cloak. I keep bags in my inventory for the same reasons. I'm saying that you should not be oocly miffed if a thief comes and makes rp out of that situation. Your character made that decision when he had the option to better protect his items. I've got five bags in my inventory at this very moment, for the simple fact that I like my worn equipment to match, and there are no silver bags in game. If someone took all of them right now, with RP, and didn't sell it off, I'd have nothing to say. If someone took all of it and logged off immediately, or sold it, I'd expect consequence.

It feels like every time someone calls something an unfair advantage for any class, it's taken from the game, or made nearly useless.

[Lathander]

If someone took all of them right now, with RP, and didn't sell it off, I'd have nothing to say. If someone took all of it and logged off immediately, or sold it, I'd expect consequence.

It feels like every time someone calls something an unfair advantage for any class, it's taken from the game, or made nearly useless.

To the first point. The plain fact is that the great majority of thieves do not RP such stealings. They are taken from people who WOULD miss them, even if you are one of those who doesn't place as much personal value on eq as others. Thieves take them from PCs and from pets, and before code denied them, entire personal storerooms.

To the second point, I don't think anyone called this an "unfair advantage" for the class. The issue is that more jerks play thieves than non-jerks. They take up time from imms who have to track them down and reimburse eq. They invoke hardships on others who don't deserve it. Those good players then tend to quit FK. We'd rather lose the jerk and not the good player.

I'd like to ask that this thread be redirected back tot he original intent which is to discuss ways to make the thief class a viable one on FK while either deterring jerks from playing the class, or making it so one can't be a jerk while playing it. The suggestions here are as varied as our players. Let's not get bogged down on one idea nor slip to unproductive vitriol. We haven't yet, but it seems to me that we are getting close.

Please keep the productive ideas and the CONSTRUCTIVE criticism of those ideas coming.

[Mele]

I have been wondering for a long time whether or not the option to steal from PCs and their pets is really worth having or not.

I did not think it off topic saying I think it is bad to take it away. This thread is about steal as far as I've read, not the class in general. Pardon my misunderstanding, if this was intended for contructive ways to better the class. :)

[Cret]

Rogue hits opponent X.
if another_member_of_rogue's_party also attacks X,
and X is not undead/golem/plant/otherwise_immune_to_sneak_attacks
then damage is increased by (level_of_thief/5)d6

Dont you mean:

If memeber_of_rogue_party attacks X
if rogue also attacks X,
and X is not undead/golem/plant/otherwise_immune_to_sneak_attacks
then Rogue's damage is increased by (level_of_thief/5)d6

Back to steal:

Im totaly for steal being used on pets/mounts with reason. As it stands, when you fail the animals echo the same thing that mobs do: X of X is a bloody thief!. HOwever moderiation should be used. When I first started my rogue 4-5 years ago. You could steal anything.. then at some point.. someone stole somthing like 15000 platinum.. Then it was reworked. You could steal 1 item from a mount. If you stole a bag, you could pilfer it and return the bag to the animal. Thus mimicing PKrules on looting items. Sense then, i havent kept up on steel much. Because everyone complains about losing items and it being unfair.

My main argument for steal being kept and used would be to use the losing items in a crash. They wont be refunded:

Game crashes
============
Crashes are unforeseen interruptions in the game that cause everyone
to be disconnected. If you type time and look at the system start up
time, you can determine if the game has just rebooted or if it was a
problem with only your character.

99.9% of the time corpses will save over a crash. The game will
start back up with your character at the last place you saved or the
game saved you.

We do not reimburse items or pets lost in crashes. We ask that you
handle their loss in character.

Very rarely we are able to restore a character from backup if its recent
enough or if you have been fortunate enough to have been looked at by
an imm who has a buffer of the info you may get some items restore.
However, please note these situations are very rare.

[/b]

[Raona]

The issue is that more jerks play thieves than non-jerks. They take up time from imms who have to track them down and reimburse eq. They invoke hardships on others who don't deserve it. Those good players then tend to quit FK. We'd rather lose the jerk and not the good player.

Could this fact be turned to FK's advantage, in that if PSteal events are logged, we can quickly identify the jerks who ignore the rules and don't care about ruining other people's fun, and remove them from the game? They are a pain no matter what class they play, really. If PSteals really are the rare occurrence the responsible thieves suggest, and as you pointed out, rarely is the problem a lack of knowledge of the rules, they might serve as a good flag for the folks who just don't belong here. Alas, with lots of new players coming in, at least some will be of this type, and we either have to wait them out or root them out; either way, they are more Imm overhead, and perhaps being proactive is less work, in the end, than patching up the damage they do until they realize this isn't a fun place to play the OOCly-heartless, "Because I can" persona, twink.

[Larethiel]

I'm not sure if I understand that correctly, are you suggesting to use the "Items lost in a crash will not be reinbursed" with stolen items, too? In my opinion that seems rather unfair :s

Someone sneaks up your pet, steals everything, just leaves your trash laying around and is gone with you having absolutely no clue who took your stuff or how do deal with that. That would really leave a bitter taste in my mouth if not leave me totally offended oocly Why should I suffer from the inability of thief X to play fair?

Another thought on bags and stuff, bags do have their limits, they are filled at a certain point, you have to take another bag, put your stuff into that. Thus saddlebags and mount's bags are filled sometime, too, where shall I leave my other bags then if I simply have no place to store them? (Though with the lugage-thing that seems to be a bit fixed )

Considering mounts again, I agree with the poster that said a well trained mount would probably not allow a stranger to get closer, griffons and eagles even more than horses. I left my mount in a IC-place with guards and some passing mobs and still it's inventory got stolen.The option of stealing from mounts is in my opinion unfair because it can be done when the owner is not around, thus leaving him/her without an idea who took their stuff. I can imagine it's way hard to track down someone you don't even know who or what he/she is :s

With best regards.

[Lerytha]

Well, I've been following as best as I can, the shifting sands of this argument (discussion, I should say, because its been very polite). A few things have been raised that I feel I should comment on. I'm afraid I can't remember who's said them, though.

Someone made a point about wizards having the ability to curse people or blind them, but not doing it. Or fighters being able to kill people but not doing it. And they used a logical progression from there to say that thieves are able to steal from people but shouldn't. I'm afraid I don't agree. If fighters are able to kill people but never do, I OOCly lose that small trace of wariness when I meet a fighter on the road. If wizards never curse/blind people randomly, then I and others will lose that trace of wariness you get when you meet a wizard you know is powerful. Similarly, why should I lose that wariness of a rogue that I know is in the Square?

I honestly feel that the wariness you feel (IC largely, but yes, I admit to a trace of OOC wariness when I encounter all classes) makes the roleplaying experience on the MUD infinite times better. I don't ever want to see a character my character has worked out is a rogue without patting my robes to check my stuff is still there. Whilst I've never played a rogue, I do feel I need to defend them a little, in this argument (discussion). Part of the interaction and mystery concerning rogues, is their ability to steal.

So, the problem with rogues stealing is not the fact that rogues can steal, its the fact that some rogues/majority of rogues (whatever side of the discussion you're one) are stealing a lot, unfairly, and acting in a way that is crippling the enjoyment of others

If the problem was the first point, then a blanket removal or whatever, of STEAL, might be a solution. Since that is not the problem however, I think there needs to be an entirely different solution. Do not remove STEAL. If I look at a thief and DON'T fear for my belongings ICly, there is something wrong. Similarly, if a fighter can look at my wizard and NOT fear an instant-death spell, there is something wrong (I take the point that at present those sorts of spells are temporarily banned because of neccessary code-changes, but eventually the ban will be removed). If my wizard can look at a fighter and NOT fear its big-bad-evil-sword-swing, there is something wrong. If I can see a ranger and NOT fear his/her ability to track me down wherever I go, to heal him/herself before stabbing me in the heart, there is something wrong.

I understand that people are anti-PK more and more. That's fair enough. Its a shame that the only people who seem to do PK regularly with any skill are people who've buffed themselves up to ridiculous levels. But I remember RPing with people when I was younger, who were powerful, but who always let you have a little fun with a PK situation. I still hold that a well-done PK situation is one of the most thrilling situations in the MUD. Similarly, a well-done STEAL situation could be also. Its a shame that although a few rotten apples can make a bushel of good apples bad, a few good apples can't make a bushel of bad apples good.

So, what do we do to stop the general nasty aftertaste that most people have said they have concerning STEAL?

I like most of the ideas actually, presented here, that don't concern themselves with the removal of the skill. That's a bit of an extreme solution, and will lessen the entire experience for the MUD (after all, it could be the thin end of a wedge - if we remove STEAL because lots of people are unhappy, what else do we remove afterwards, eventually producing a rather neutered feel to what should be a thrilling MUD experience).

Some of my favourite ideas I've seen so far:

- logging of STEAL against PC or mounts - may not catch the worst offenders, but at least if an imm is online they can see the steal and help with the RP for all concerned... that has to be a good thing, right?

- various PC organisations? I know people (for some reason) dislike the idea of the ranger council. But I think the ranger council has done much good for ranger RP since its inception. Maybe its time to have two thief councils as suggested above, to make sure everyone knows about the OOC/IC limitations of stealing. Maybe even back up the OOC rules with IC rules. "Why can't we steal this person's lifetime platinum supply, grandmaster Mask-follower?" "Well, Timmy, if you steal this person's lifetime platinum supply, they'll be consumed with rage. They'll never rest until they find you and all your associates, bringing too much notice to every thieves' guild in Faerun... its our job to avoid detection, Timmy. If you ever bring down the law into your guild, you'll be dealt with severely." Personally, if I was a thief character, I'd be terrified that my chaotic steal-everything attitude would anger the grandmaster Mask-follower.

- enhanced guild entry? Maybe some tutorials during the quests to join the thieves' guilds which double/replace the idea of a thief council above?

- many other ideas covered in this post, which I think could avoid the need for a removal of the STEAL skill. I quite like the idea of imms removing the STEAL skill from only some individuals, who have consistently offended. Not straight-away, after some warnings and the like. You could say that the PC has been branded by the authorities and wouldn't get near someone ICly to steal.

Anyway, those are my thoughts. Its been an interesting discussion. I just hope we take the slow, considered approach instead of a knee-jerk approach. And I'm not accusing anyone of knee-jerk approaches! Personally, I think its great we're having this discussion. There was once a time when we'd wake up in the morning with the skill gone, and no consultation whatsoever. So my thoughts here (I re-iterate) are not criticisms towards anyone at all.

Thanks for listening.

~Ol

[Lathlain]

I have been sitting on the fence throughout this discussion, but I must say that Lerytha's comments ring true with me. I would hate to see the ability to steal from players removed. To go back to Dalvyn's original reference, the glittering shards roleplay relatively recently had an impromptu player steal situation as a part of it with which I was involved, and this allowed for involvement and protracted roleplay where there wouldn't have been any otherwise!

That said, I have been the target of random thefts in the past, including items as hefty as pieces of armour being removed from me, only to turn up on sale at the nearest vendor within the hour. I know the sting of this, knowing full well that I've had to pay a fair sum to recoup my loss while the thief in question only benefitted in the form of a few extra coins.

I'm all for the idea of a council, but I appreciate the IC and OOC objections. Some thieves will be loners, it's true, with no regard for organised crime. Some will be bandits in the wilds, beyond the reach of any organisations. Would it be possible perhaps to make thefts performed by people not within the council be logged and reported to council leaders for IC investigation and IC consequence? What about disabling the steal skill when used against a player character in a city sector unless they are a part of the council?

I'm clutching at straws now admitedly - the above would probably be impossible to code and not even fully address the situation, but I agree that to keep the skill in game and simply keep tabs on it would be preferable by far to removing it outright.

[Ceara]

It's early morning and I haven't finished my first cup of coffee yet, so forgive the typo's n such.

Part of the problem is that steal is only seen when an imm is online. However it is fairly easy to code it to be kept in a dat file or linked list so that imms can check it when they log on. I know I've coded a similar thing for prayers. The only problem with that is that it would be a lot of spam because a lot of thieves do only steal from mobs. The command could be reworked to check if it is a pc or a mount or type cart and in that case send a log of it to the file. I think a rule against stealing from mounts or carts should be created.

As for wanting to wear a cloak instead of a pack. I've been there too so I wear bags on my belt and if I have too much in them then I keep a pack in my inv with things that wouldn't shatter my char if she lost them. My chars like to wear matching clothes too, or special items, or it's just ic for her to wear a cloak to attempt to mask her features.

As for the council again I don't agree with it. Again it is too open to abuse and it is frustrating to have to wait for people to come online in order to obtain your class. Adding explanations as to why stealing from pc's should only be used in certain situations I agree with and can be added to the various guilds and or a help file that they should read on creation and can later reference. Rules against stealing from mounts and carts and those things coupled with a way for imms to check up on such things via a dat file with the command logged, would I think solve the problem.
Yes it means more work for imms but it also means that the 'bad apples' would be routed out and dealt with.

One thing that I have *always* hated was everyone being punished for what one or a few do, it is just wrong and does not work, it only serves to anger the innocent being punished against those who are punishing them and not necissarily the person that caused the problem to begin with. Creating bad feelings and tension in general as well as resentment. Especially when those who are being punished without cause don't even know who is really to blame.