Anti-Paladins

[Velius]

EQ has an Anti-Paladin class very similar to the blackguard called the Shadow Knight, can we look that up for how we should RP Blackguards?

EDITED TO ADD: Heres a website, its not great but its the wikipedia page

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadowknight

[Zilvryn]

Drow blackguard are not uncommon, though generally i'd point anyone who wished to play a drow blackguard in the direction of the Judicator.

Kind of a drow only uber-blackguard.

"Drow Judicator
[ The Underdark p.33-5 ]
A mortal imbued with fiendish cruelty, the drow judicator is a knight most foul. This unholy warrior is steeped in the divine energy of Selvetarm, the Spider that Waits, self-appointed Champion of Lolth. Consort of demons and demonic arachnids, the drow judicator is hated and feared by all, especially other male drow who are jealous of the heights of power to which he has risen."

The problems that arrive with having drow + these kind of classes is the inherently chaotic nature of the drow does not sit well with the typical LE Blackguard...

[Velius]

Drow blackguard are not uncommon, though generally i'd point anyone who wished to play a drow blackguard in the direction of the Judicator.

Kind of a drow only uber-blackguard.

"Drow Judicator
[ The Underdark p.33-5 ]
A mortal imbued with fiendish cruelty, the drow judicator is a knight most foul. This unholy warrior is steeped in the divine energy of Selvetarm, the Spider that Waits, self-appointed Champion of Lolth. Consort of demons and demonic arachnids, the drow judicator is hated and feared by all, especially other male drow who are jealous of the heights of power to which he has risen."

The problems that arrive with having drow + these kind of classes is the inherently chaotic nature of the drow does not sit well with the typical LE Blackguard...

Itd work in a sense that Elves can be paladins, so their counter-parts being anti-paladins would work.

I'm going to look up Half-Drow

[Zilvryn]

Not so, the drow thrive on chaos, elves, though they lean towards the chaotic end of the spectrum do not.

That's a huge difference.

[Velius]

I've found that half-drow are allowed to be Blackguards. What I can do is starting listing what races can be blackguards. And I can list the gods that may be available to have blackguard orders ( note that I will only be listing gods/races available in game ) If you don't agree with sumthin', feel free to post then ( So far I've not seen a single Anti-Paladin god, so I'll be putting them on the list if I think they fit the role )

Races:
Human
Drow
Half-Drow

Gods:
Bane
Cyric
Shar
Talona
Loviator
Talos?

Hopefully I'm helping with making this list

[Lathlain]

This is one I feel compelled to post in!

Actually this topic rings a few alarm bells in me. Don't get me wrong, I've been silently angling for a blackguard role for most of my time playing FK, but that time has taught me that you don't need a class to fulfil the concept.

In 3rd edition D&D, Blackguard as a 'class' has very few limitations. You do not need a patron deity (That confused me as well, but there you have it!), you can be of any race (Provided it's within reasonable roleplay to do so), and you can be of any evil. You simply need to be devout and resolute in whatever cause empowers you (And you also need to have made friendly contact with an evil outsider, granted). The upshot of this is that a great many people in game would qualify for this title already, which is the bit that concerns me.

If you wanted Blackguard as a playable class (Prestige class or otherwise), we would either need to adjust the class requirements beyond canon to be harder to attain, being incredibly strict with the admission policies, or simply allow a large wave of the blighters to populate the circuit. I know which I'd rather, but it makes the admission process rather difficult.

I have to wonder whether it wouldn't be a better idea to be looking at the possibility of the divine champion instead (Which at least requires the unconditional blessing of a deity), or actually creating an anti-paladin class specifically despite canon if the sole intention here is to find the counter-balance to the paladin class.

[Velius]

This is one I feel compelled to post in!

Actually this topic rings a few alarm bells in me. Don't get me wrong, I've been silently angling for a blackguard role for most of my time playing FK, but that time has taught me that you don't need a class to fulfil the concept.

In 3rd edition D&D, Blackguard as a 'class' has very few limitations. You do not need a patron deity (That confused me as well, but there you have it!), you can be of any race (Provided it's within reasonable roleplay to do so), and you can be of any evil. You simply need to be devout and resolute in whatever cause empowers you (And you also need to have made friendly contact with an evil outsider, granted). The upshot of this is that a great many people in game would qualify for this title already, which is the bit that concerns me.

If you wanted Blackguard as a playable class (Prestige class or otherwise), we would either need to adjust the class requirements beyond canon to be harder to attain, being incredibly strict with the admission policies, or simply allow a large wave of the blighters to populate the circuit. I know which I'd rather, but it makes the admission process rather difficult.

I have to wonder whether it wouldn't be a better idea to be looking at the possibility of the divine champion instead (Which at least requires the unconditional blessing of a deity), or actually creating an anti-paladin class specifically despite canon if the sole intention here is to find the counter-balance to the paladin class.

Well, I was thinking of the second one, finding the counter-balance of the paladin class personally

EDITED TO ADD: If you think the list was a stupid idea feel free to fire insults to your hearts desire, I won't use it against you ( applies to everyone )

[Jaenoic]

Anti-paladin and blackguard are two separate things. Anti-paladin is actually a base class, and is a stark contrast to the paladin base class.

(BASE CLASS)
The Anti-paladin is, as the name suggests, the antithesis of the virtuous Paladin. Whereas the Paladin uses divine favour to strike at the forces of evil, the Anti-paladin harnesses those very forces to wreak havoc among his foes.

Mantled with unholy favour, this paragon of evil cuts a swathe of death and destruction everywhere he goes, leaving chaos and misery in his wake. The Anti-paladin can call upon the powers of darkness to smite his foes in many different ways, inflicting pain, disease and terror on any who stand in his way.

Fear him. Loathe him. Beware him. This is a true champion of evil!
- Alignment Restrictions: Chaotic Evil only.
- Hit Die: d10.
- Proficiencies: Simple, Martial, Shield and Light, Medium and Heavy Armor.
- Skill Points: 2 + Int Modifier.

ABILITIES:

Level
1: Smite Good 1/day
2: Divine Grace
3: Aura of Fear - Aura -4 vs. Fear, and youre immune to Fear effect.
Death Knell 1/day
4: Turn Outsider
5: Smite Good 2/day
6: Contagion 1/day
8: Death Knell 2/day
9: Contagion 2/day
10: Smite Good 3/day
12: Contagion 3/day
13: Death Knell 3/day
15: Smite Good 4/day
Contagion 4/day
18: Contagion 5/day
Death Knell 4/day
20: Smite Good 5/day

SPELL LIST:
Level 1: Bane, Inflict Light Wounds, Protection from Good, Summon Monster 1.
Level 2: Bull's Strength, Darkness, Desecrate, Summon Monster 2.
Level 3: Blindness/Deafness, Greater Magic Weapon, Inflict Moderate Wounds, Magic Circle against Good, Summon Monster 3.
Level 4: Death Ward, Fear, Inflict Serious Wounds, Poison, Unholy Sword.

And the Blackguard is a prestige class, not necessarily the antithesis of a paladin but perhaps just an evil divine champion.

(PRESTIGE CLASS)
A Blackguard epitomizes evil. They are nothing short of a mortal fiend, a black knight with the foulest sort of reputation. Many refer to Blackguards as anti-paladins due to their completely evil nature. No one class makes the best Blackguard, all that is required is a willingness to serve the forces of darkness.

- Hit Die: d10.
- Proficiencies: All simple and martial weapons, all types of armor, and shields.
- Skill Points: 2 + Int Modifier.

REQUIREMENTS:

Alignment: Any evil.
Base Attack Bonus: +6
Skills: Hide 5 ranks.
Feats: Cleave.

ABILITIES:

Level
1: Use Poison - Automatic success when coating a weapon with poison.
2: Smite Good - Add Charisma modifier to attack roll.
Dark Blessing - Add Charisma modifier to saving throws.
Bull's Strength - As spell.
3: Turn Undead - Make undead flee.
Create Undead - summons an undead ally.
4: Sneak Attack +1d6.
5: Summon Fiend - summons a fiendish ally.
6: Inflict Serious Wounds - As spell.
7: Contagion - As spell.
Sneak Attack +2d6.
8: Inflict Critical Wounds - As spell.
10: Sneak Attack +3d6.

Although I could have sworn Blackguards had to be LE, but I guess I was mistaken. I crave a LE anti-paladin sort, but that might just be the lawful in me wanting an honorable enemy for once.

[Lathander]

My opinion is that we need more players before we need more classes.

[Zilvryn]

I concur.

I'm not even sure we do need more classes, PrCs would be nice, but the base classes seem to be fine.

The only exceptions from this are Barbarians and Sorcerers in my eyes..

[Kirkus]

first I want to say I agree that we need more evils! First and foremost that has been the way of things since the beginning of time, never enough evil characters. Of course my vision is of our beloved mud with thousands of players, and everyone has a character to cover most angles that way we can have huge sweeping rps with plenty of people to work on both sides of the situation.

Next I just wanted to add that I don't really see half that list of religions really supporting a class of this sort. First to answer the question mark behind Talos, I would say no. Its too organized where as Talos is all about a breaking of order. The others seem the same to me, except Bane and Cyric, they all seem to be too much of the 'under the radar' evil. Feel free to back up any ideas I have opposed....

[Velius]

first I want to say I agree that we need more evils! First and foremost that has been the way of things since the beginning of time, never enough evil characters. Of course my vision is of our beloved mud with thousands of players, and everyone has a character to cover most angles that way we can have huge sweeping rps with plenty of people to work on both sides of the situation.

Next I just wanted to add that I don't really see half that list of religions really supporting a class of this sort. First to answer the question mark behind Talos, I would say no. Its too organized where as Talos is all about a breaking of order. The others seem the same to me, except Bane and Cyric, they all seem to be too much of the 'under the radar' evil. Feel free to back up any ideas I have opposed....

Well, when I was making the Anti-Paladin list thingy, I knew that Bane is the Tyr of the bad-guys, thus he would "lead" the anti-paladin orders. Cyric also fits in as he is also a Greater Power of evil and other various reasons, Therefore I think of Cyric as the Helm of the bad-guys. As for Torm, I'd think that Bane would also take on the characteristics of Torm being that Torm is the god of paladins and Bane I thought of as the god of Anti-Paladins. The other gods I added were to be thought of as the Special Anti-Paladin orders. I just looked up a handful of evil gods that fit in with the Evil Anti-Paladin concept, although I'm thinking Lloth would do fine leading the Drow Anti-Paladins, sort of like how Corellon leads the Elven Paladins.

Talos I had there because he is an evil chaotic god, but I didn't he'd really fit in so I put him there with a ?.

[Laitaine]

Off topic:

I think of Cyric as the Helm of the bad-guys.

I... actually think I'm going to have to use that in my sig

[Oghma]

Cyric is the Oghma of Bad guys.

Bane is the Helm of Bad guys.

Shar is the Lathander of Bad guys

[Lathlain]

Don't get me started

Hypothetically, and I stress that because there is and has always been a strong opposition to the class in FK, an anti-paladin order would be unlikely to have any sort of cross-church friendliness. Bane is the Tyr of evils, that much is true - Cyric is like the mostly crazed rabid dog-headed Chucky with Freddy claws of evils though. The two orders would constantly be attempting to thwart one another, and neither would admit to the other leading anything!

I must say however that I don't agree that the game is too under-populated for the inclusion of this sort of a class. It's true that players are fickle and don't necessarily have the sticking power to see a year-long squire roleplay through reliably and without cajoling, but that would be the case if we had 5 players or 500. The fact is that we've had some stunning paladins in game in the past, and they've done justice to the title. The same can be said for any class admitedly, but this sort of opening in the class market would be a huge and welcome incentive for sustained and quality evil roleplayers.

[Kelemvor]

...players are fickle

That has to the quote of the year

But in relation to this topic it does have some bearing.

Within game we currently have only a single regularly played knight to take squires through their lessons. Regularly being a very loose description as they are often unable to conduct lessons due to OOC difficulties or squire absence.

Similarly, there are around a dozen or so squires currently in various stages of training. Some of whom have not logged onto the game in several months.

I think real life is the fickle thing and it is hard for players to commit to playing a single character continuously and intensively over a long period of time.

I would not wish to see an opposite class to paladins without it requiring similar endeavour, but I would not be opposed to such a class. As noted above, though, creating a new class may not be the most effective use of resources at this time.

[Glim]

Cyric is the Oghma of Bad guys.

Bane is the Helm of Bad guys.

Shar is the Lathander of Bad guys

Cyric is the One. The True. The EVERYTHING of bad guys!

[Yzelle]

IMO, Mask is more the Lathander of the bad guys. Evil in general for His own reasons, with little relevance for order or chaos, and generally self-serving if no one else wants to play nice. And they both have a penchant for grand schemes that don't necessarily go so well in the end.

[Velius]

Off topic:

I think of Cyric as the Helm of the bad-guys.

I... actually think I'm going to have to use that in my sig

When I wrote Cyric is the Helm of bad guys I meant the role he took, in the Anti-Paladin thing. Helm is one of the 3 major gods for paladins, Tyr and Torm are the other 2, and I though since Torm is the God of paladins, and there isn't a god of Anti-Paladins I thought that Cyric and Bane would share the role... my head hurts...

Well about the Anti-Paladin thing, I just thought itd be nice to have an evil class since there are a few good-only classes ( not to mention I wish the evil dudes were more active in fightin' the goodies ). Perhaps the Anti-Paladins can come in as a result to the Return of Bane RP?

Just an idea

[Kregor]

Here with you...

I'M still pressing for evil rangers of Malar!