levels below ten

[Mariela]

I hate however the experiance is loading at the moment. I dispise it.

Mostly because, as much as people are like, "Noooo we don't want 50 characters at level 50...." It's unfair to us to cut the new players/characters off from attaining it... AT ALL! I shouldn't have to log six years of my life in real time on a game to get level 35 much less 50. And combine the fact that I had made a new priest before the bump in experiance...... ARGH! Spells are expensive enough as it is.. especially if you do not grind for coin as a character! Combine the fact you have to have experiance to get anything but your domain spells... what is the point of doing anything but what's in your domain?

Okay. Whining done.

Practial solutions loading...
Personally, I kinda see this sort of break down..

1-10 - Easy to extremely easy to gain Experiance.
10 -15 - Easy ish, boarderlining on moderate
16-20 - Moderate.
20-30 - Hard
35 - 40 - Very hard
40 -50 - next to impossible.

Right now... we have it almost completely flipped from what I understand. Granted, I don't have ANY characters above level 35.. but you see my point. I HATE the fact that I cannot take a group of low level characters around to do quests as a group because they get nothing out of it cause Mariela who is there to make sure they are alive and not for experiance purposes... pulls the experiance down so far because of her level we can't group. And that's suicidal in a lot of locations to not. Plus the area effect spells alone will kill someone of low level if you are not careful!

Yes. We can also group for Role playing reasons.. but everyone wants to be able to say at a certain point that they have a character who is not a newbie character. Eventually you want to say, "I have done most of the quests in the Waterdeep area... and I'm 25 and proud of it!" So many can barely say they are 12th level.

[Arothian]

I shouldn't have to log six years of my life in real time on a game to get level 35 much less 50.

It took me three months to get Arothian to level 20 as a priest. I did have a lot of help.

Granted, I don't have ANY characters above level 35.. but you see my point.

Arothian is 26 I think, Rahanar is 12. Six months realtime approximately.

I HATE the fact that I cannot take a group of low level characters around to do quests as a group because they get nothing out of it cause Mariela who is there to make sure they are alive and not for experiance purposes... pulls the experiance down so far because of her level we can't group.

Yup. Welcome to my world. I can't group with anyone that I know with Arothian because everyone is too high, or too low. Rah is having the too high problem. Soloing is boring.

Yes. We can also group for Role playing reasons.. but everyone wants to be able to say at a certain point that they have a character who is not a newbie character. Eventually you want to say, "I have done most of the quests in the Waterdeep area... and I'm 25 and proud of it!" So many can barely say they are 12th level.

Rahanar ran into the problem the other day of being dead and only 1 person being on that he even knew, and they only knew him in passing. It was a frightening experience.

Well... that's enough from me from work. I'll check in when I get home.

[Nysan]

Well, considering I haven't been on lately, I'm shooting from left feild. But not having a clue never stopped me before!

1-15 should be easy levels to attain. These are the levels that reel in new players. Having it in the "OMG!" level of tedium to get through is a real turn off for the average player. Granted, we are an RP focused gathering here but RP is not so fun when folks you are talking to decide to go somewhere that is level 30 or so and you are sitting at level 5. (Makes for a nice running gag though from personal experience.)

16-35 (perhaps 40) is, in my mind, the average playerbase's comfort zone. They can travel between cities without fear of much pain and have a fair selection of zones to gather with friends, adventure, practice trades, ect. This is where the leveling should become reasonably difficult to discourage straight powerleveling and grinders.

35(40)+ is, again in my mind, the elder characters. This is where characters with hundreds, sometimes thousands of hours of game play and RP should be found. Attaining this level should be a testament to the player, not something to race towards. An area gradually attain while building a well defined story of the character and establishing the character in the community. This is one of those places you merely notice you reached in your travels and extensive RP rather than being an end goal.

Granted, my playtime is quite outdated and I am not even sure I have played on the new code, but that doesn't change the level brackets much in my eyes regardless. *shrug*

[Lerytha]

I just think levelling should be made easier rather than harder. Yes, you get lots of people reaching level 50 (largely fighters, I'd imagine, with less skills to use exp on and so able to train level a lot more). However, the alternative, is a dry spell of levelling.

We may not want lots of people to be level 50... but do we want someone to spend THREE MONTHS trying to get to level 20? With help? It is a game, as well as an RP-place. As well as encouraging people to RP, there does need to be a way to level reasonably. Priests/bards/wizards have a LOT of skills AND spells to use exp on, and so it cannot be reasonable to have a famine of exp, when exp is what you HAVE to use to learn spells. I also believe that we won't quite see the influx of level 50 characters that has been predicted for a time.

I'd also like to say that RP is not just talking, its also fighting, duelling clashing, being competetive, and training in groups. You can't do that in an interesting way for too long if you can't level up particularly easily.

I'm running the risk of being a bit tetchy here... but I've seen a lot of posts here in agreement with exp gains being made easier. On almost every other topic on these forums there is often considerable disagreement and division. If one person says something, it could mean little. But if a lot of people say something, it generally means an equal something. I believe the expression, "no smoke without fire" may spring to mind... if people are all so worried, surely there is something to be worried about?

So yes, I would definitely like to see exp gain for levels 1-10 made easier. But I would also definitely like to see exp gain for all levels (maybe not 40-50) made easier.

[Emrys]

Sorry to swim against the stream here.

I see no problem with the way I gain XP.

It's a little bit of a grind reaching level 10. I see no problem with that. The few hours it takes is nothing, really, when compared with the effort involved in getting faithed, or joining a guild, in most cases.

[Velius]

The one thing that I really liked about this MUD when I started was the fact that there was more to the MUD than grinding. In most of the other MUDs I've played all you do is try to be the biggest baddest character in all the realms. In FK you can sit around the Market Square and have a lot more fun than you would have in any "Ultimate Grinder, Big Bad MUD"

I really do think though that atleast levels 1 - 10 should be easier, so that we can get into Guilds, worship gods, and all the other wonderful things. Levels 10 - 35 should be a moderate speed, in those levels you are progressing in strength and making a mark in the world.

IDK what to do with 35 - 40, but I think that 40 - 50 should be HARD, so that only the people willing to put forth the effort could get to level 50

( Level 50 is the ultimate level, only the greatest of Fighters, and the mightiest of Wizards and whatnot should be able to hit that level. I think that it should be IC for your character to hit level 50 because being level 50 shows that you are the best of the best. )

[Dalvyn]

( Level 50 is the ultimate level, only the greatest of Fighters, and the mightiest of Wizards and whatnot should be able to hit that level. I think that it should be IC for your character to hit level 50 because being level 50 shows that you are the best of the best. )

Does it?

I don't consider level 50 as "the best of the best" or "the greatest of fighters" or "the mightiest of wizards". Most often, being level 50 just means that you have ground enough mobs to get the experience to level to 50, nothing more than that.

As to the experience being gained too slowly, I can't comment there. The change was done "behind the scene" and I have no idea what the current setting is.

My only comment would be that it might be good to explore alternatives too. For example:

• If the problem is that you have to be level 10 to do fun stuff, then let's remove that restriction. You can already be faithed before level 10 (I think). I'm fine with removing guild level restrictions too.
• That does not mean that all level restrictions can be removed though... I'll give the Express Deliveries quests as an example. This is a typical example of a quest that can be very easily abused: create an alt, run the alt through the quests, drop the 100 or so platinum you got, log in your main character and pick up the gold (bad, bad, bad ... if you are caught, both characters deleted !). That's why there is a level 10 minimum restriction on this quest.
• Another option to investigate. The very first master/apprentice system (which was coded around February 2007) was such that the learner did not need to spend experience to learn skills from his/her master. Perhaps that mlight help with the experience grinding, and perhaps that could be the perk of training from a master rather than from mobs?
• Give low-level characters things to do ... perhaps make it easier for them to complete a quest to learn how to mine and smelt. The precision forge was introduced for low-level characters too, because this is something that they can use to produce objects that are useful for characters of all levels (not sure if it's used though - I know that I did not get a single feedback mail about it).
• Increase the amount of move points of low level... that's a suggestion that was made months ago.
• ...

[Japcil]

I've actually noticed that even grouping with characters around my level I still get no exp at all.

None? Is this really true? I don't know the details of code (I don't work on that side of things), but if PCs get NO xp at all, that's a problem.

False. Remember you get xp when you make an attack on a mob not on its death. A bisecting blow solo might give 10 xp where grouped with another PC, mounts don't count, it could give 15. These are random figures nothing concrete of the code to show how it works to my knowledge.

[Lathander]

Please consider two other things:

1. Your exp number on the score screen is a percentage, which means it is a range. For instance, a percentage change from 33% to 34% might entail and xp gain of 20,000 points (making that number up completely BTW). So, if you gain 10K xp it would not show as a percentage gain yet, but you would still have earned the points.

2. Many people spend xp on skills/spells. Often it may appear that you are on one level for a long time, but how many xp points were spent on things other than level gain?

Imms can see exact xp points, perhaps some of us should take some time to watch players (solo and in groups) and test this to be sure. Or, code council can do it on the test port.

I am not in favor of FAST levels but I also would rather not lose players or not attract new ones because a majority find it tortuously slow. This particular discussion comes around about every 18 months. It never hurts to review it I suppose.

[Nysan]

[*]Give low-level characters things to do ... perhaps make it easier for them to complete a quest to learn how to mine and smelt. The precision forge was introduced for low-level characters too, because this is something that they can use to produce objects that are useful for characters of all levels (not sure if it's used though - I know that I did not get a single feedback mail about it).

Dispite the fact that this was ages ago and in the old code, its still valid...

I remember old Gilain up in MH as my favorite "early levels" character. The fact that he had access to a chain of quests pretty much out of the rat pit that kept him busy, active, and involved for quite a few levels (and many, many hours) of gameplay lead to me really enjoy the character, regardless of the built-in hardships of the life of a young MH dwarf which were challenging and fun.

Not suggesting every character gets set up with a line of trade quests right out of the newbie area, but that first level hill doesn't feel that bad when you're doing something besides wacking mobs. (Oh, so many dead rats and beetles.. )

Granted, RP and player interaction does a great deal to pass the time but it doesn't hurt to have something else on the to-do list when there aren't many folks around to RP with (MH was always a quiet place in Gilain's youth).

-- Side thought, think grinding mobs and gaining levels is boring? Gilain gained most of his experience from his trades. That was coffee consuming! lol

[Japcil]

Another thing concerning quests is that rewards werent always exp/kismet and coin, it usually was coin and glory points. Now it seems rare to find new quests that do give glory.

[Kregor]

I have played, and been an immortal on several SMAUG code based muds in the past. I know that FK is heavily modified, but is originally based on SMAUG code. These are two things that may or may not be useful, depending on how modified things are:

From what I have seen in bugging the code and working with Mask on some small segments of it, this codebase has almost nothing that's recognizable as base Smaug anymore.

[Kregor]

My first hand experience, as it stands now, is that the way the experience award works is enough to keep me from making a new alt, at all. Even at level 11, my orc is useless. He can RP his pants off, but the first ranger that comes into Shilmista to bully him would kill him in one round if I didn't simply refuse to participate in PKill when they start osaying "kill or stun" over and over. He can't wear half the armor in the orc camp because it says he's not experienced enough, even though he's a fighter. I had to grind for a solid DAY just to get from level 9 to 10 so that he COULD guild as a fighter, spending no experience on skills, so he's a level 11 (thought he was level 12, I was wrong) fighter with one attack a round, and CLIMB to amateur, and no EXP for more, after almost 60 hours of play. Very little of this (three or four Orc meetings at a few hours each, is all) was spent RPing with anyone. I'm tired of grinding, and it's the only way to get any experience at all.

I don't power level. My first Character was Kregor, almost four years ago, I was over 1000 hours before I turned level 50. Rozor turned 700. Tygen has yet to reach level 50, and now likely never will, nor be getting much experience for the 3/4 of his spells he still needs to learn. If I were just starting any one of them now, it would take many times more than that for my style of play. Again, like other changes in the past, like the level curve that was slapped onto the skill gain (and thank god has been removed now), doesn't punish the players who want to power level as much as it punishes the players who don't.

You can't code roleplay. You can't code obedience. You can't code people to play the way you want as admins of a game. It takes human intervention, barring that, just let it go and enforce the things that are actually important.

[Arothian]

From what I have seen in bugging the code and working with Mask on some small segments of it, this codebase has almost nothing that's recognizable as base Smaug anymore.

As I said, speculation only. I truly love FK and admire all of the work that has been done to change it from the carbon copy stock SMAUG to this wonderful blooming flower that is the mud. I admire all the builders, coders, and admins, especially Mask, because they can keep up with all of it. I was never able, and regret losing touch with a lot of my building and coding abilities.

As for my arse-kissing... in Top form.

Seriously though, thank you guys so much for all the hard work. I'm not sure that people give you guys the praise you deserve.

[Alvirin]

The new xp brought for me a new style of playing for all my characters very different from the one I played before the change.

Right now I don't train a skill/spell until I'm quite levels beyond the level at the level which is given that skill/spell, because if I do it I can go from "You are about half-way towards your next level", to "Your journey has just started" easily, if getting xp was easier I wouldn't have many problems about it, but if the idea of having to grind in order to level up wasn't enough, the idea of grind to train skills as well it is just excesive

As a result I have characters that are far from being able to do what a character of their level could do since I don't have the patience for killing mobs over and over.

[Glim]

From what I have seen in bugging the code and working with Mask

Don't you mean working with the code and bugging Mask?

Oh... I crack myself up...*walks away chuckling*

[Scylere]

I think Dalvyn had a good idea to remove the level restriction on faiths (I seem to remember trying to quest someone that was below level ten, but they couldn't do it.), guilds, and such - with exception of quests like Express Delivery that require an "experienced adventurer".

Along the same lines, I've noticed that it was very easy for a level forty+ character to gain levels, but would take double to triple the time for a lower level character to gain a level. That's just weird.

[Velius]

Fortunately, I haven't given up on making new characters

Unfortunately, I made a character and he CAN'T get passed level 8. ( 3rd straight hour of grinding and he JUST got a quarter of the way to the next level )

Grinding = Boring

It'd be RIGHTEOUS to remove level restrictions ( and it'd be awesome if it were easier to get to level 9 )

[Lerytha]

Unfortunately, removing level restrictions is just a short-term salve. I agree, it would help. However, when you can spend 3 days trapped at level 6, merely because you'd rather roleplay than bash dummies, that's in my opinion counterproductive. Kregor makes the point, that the slow-down of experience gain was created to encourage more roleplay, but that the only people it hurts are the roleplayers.

People who love grinding, will still level up. Those who hate it are just switched off from making alts. I've had a lot of ideas recently for new characters, but have always remained trapped around level 8, and so give up. Its awful, I know, but I log onto the game to roleplay, not to kill dummies. And I've created a new character recently, but even my absolute enjoyment of roleplaying him is slowly being eaten away by the face that at level 6, I can kill twenty huge dummies in a row, and get to "you are halfway to your next level", before being killed by that unlucky critical hit a dummy got on me, knocking me back down to "your journey has only just begun".

Partly because I've now decided to stick with this new alt, this particular discussion is affecting me more. The truth of the matter is that exp has slowed down at an alarming rate. I don't want to be in the newbie training place, thinking, "God, I'd like to learn some of those class skills, but if I do, it'll be another six days until I can level up". And what's scary is that that is not even beyond level 10! Its level 6!

Since my most recent death at the hands of that lucky dummy, who knocked me back down to level 6, I'm not training and levelling. Its annoyed me. That means (I'd imagine) that I roleplay my character for a few days, until I get bored at not being able to afford a green tunic, before logging off and finding an older character to play.

I feel for younger newer players, who don't have that particular luxury, or the orcs that Kregor mentioned, who don't have that luxury OR the luxury of a Square to sit inside.

Incidentally, when you used to travel with a level 50 player (or near enough) as a level 15, say, the level 15 would gain experience but the level 50 wouldn't. What happened to that? I always found that enjoyable, having older players or more powerful characters helping me out. Now, you'd have to think in any group, "Wait, wait... what level is he? Am I going to get anything out of this?" Which is again, exactly what the MUD doesn't want, I'd imagine. We want people to group and roleplay from an IC perspective, not worry about OOC experience. I recently tried with another alt, to level up a little in the Howling Peaks. Another character took me under his wing, and we spent an hour, maybe two, roleplaying whilst killing mobs. I go back to Waterdeep, and type "train level", and then realise that "my journey to the next level has only just begun". Once again, I have logged off that character.

Maybe I don't have endurance, or maybe I should be more committed to my characters. Maybe if I really loved roleplaying, I'd stay. But I'm afraid that I don't have endurance, and I don't want to have to have endurance in a game. And I'm also someone who has always been more committed to roleplaying than levelling.

I'm sorry if this comes across as a rant. To be fair, it may only be because I've spent three and a half hours levelling to halfway on dummies only to lose all that experience... but if I'm fairly put out by the prospect, I'd imagine others most assuredly are. This is not an attack, at all. I'm just trying to put as clearly as possible, the ways in which I feel whatever has been done to exp is having a negative effect on the MUD.

~Ol

[Lathander]

Excellent. You've all made points regarding your like or, more often, dislike of the current xp progression rates. You are of course free to continue to post your positive or negative feelings; however, I feel that the points have been well enough made. A few have offered some ideas for improvement. I propose asking for more ideas for solutions with as much detail as possible.

Please don't suggest, "make it easier to gain levels." Even if you really have that thought and sentiment in a positive manner, it will come across as twinkish. Much better are suggestions for HOW to reward rp as wel as bashing. How to incoporate ALL styles of play. The basher should not be frowned upon, nor should the rp player. Code abuse is something different altogether.

Imms had a discussion awhile back on trying to find a way to make rp points work with xp to both count. It was not an easy discussion and many possible flaws kept creeping in. That discussion has been dormant for sometime. Before we can even consider opening it amoung ourselves again, I'd like to hear more ideas from you, the players.