Polymorph

[Glim]

7. typical; common; ordinary: The average secretary couldn't handle such a workload. His grades were nothing special, only average.

That really does not change things. We both know the definition of average. The way I view average as being relavent in the spell, and I think this is the third time I have said this, is that you cannot make any extraordinary traits (bladed hands, 10 feet tall, etc) that would not be ordinary for that race. That fit's fully within the definition of average.

The way I believe Horace is using average as a very non-specific example of that race. I suppose that would fit fully within the definition as well.

What I don't get is what makes all specific people so extraordinary that they are not a typical example of their race.

Hell, you could even try and make your own form with polymorph and end up accidentally copying someone else. Unless there is some magical fine print that would make this impossible.

I can be within 30 feet of myself.

While I do not appreciate your comment beforehand over a mistake I made, I do think I might be wrong in this case. I was basing it upon invisibility which has a target of: Target: You or a creature or object weighing no more than 100 lb./level. In this the target is designated as you as well as another creature if you would like. But this is not something to argue, as I could very well be wrong here.

It might be a bit silly to change my definition now, but Veil is more of an illusion that anyone could disbelief without magic. I know this is different than what I stated beforehand, but with further thought I suppose I am thinking of a spell that will allow you to change the appearance of yourself physically that could not be seen through with something mundane but only by magic. Otherwise Veil to me would seem just like the disguise skill.

EDIT: Sorry, Raona, you also posted while I was writing >.<

Thanks,

[Horace]

...What? And how would you do this?

The spell Clone, spend 2d4 months building the dumb thing to be an exact non illusory replica (Veil and Simulacrum are illusions, which make them not perfect), kill the target...then the spirit is forced into the clone via the contingencies of the clone spell, then magic jar the clone so that the target's spirit goes into a jar and your spirit goes into the clone.

The new form will have a -2 constitution because of effectively raising dead them, but this is the only way to get a perfect replica of the person while not having it be an illusion or polymorph/transmutation/shape change (which are all seen through by true seeing).

This is the only way I could see making a perfect replica that is real. You obviously don't have to take control of the body with the killing the target and magic jar, you could always just move the clone into inappropriate positions to amuse your friends.

In game, however, I think it'd be impossible without an application.

[Tavik]

I'm more inclined to side with Glim in this case, but I won't start quoting rule books and such. I think we can justify it using the limits already in the game.

First off, we ARE given the option to specify an adjective AND a description. I realize the definition of polymorphing (or alter self) is subject to one's point of view and I'll admit that I take it as meaning you can basically specify every feature of the race within reason.

That said, a major factor has been left out of this discussion: players. A person that polymorphs can ONLY specify an adjective, not the name. Any player that has been greeted by the character whose form has been assumed is going to realize that they are looking at who they think they've been greeted by, but the name doesn't show up. That right there plays into the argument that people close (in this case it's more loose in that ANYONE that's been greeted will notice) to the person whose form has been assumed will notice something different.

Furthermore, polymorph is primarily cosmetic. I can make myself LOOK like a ball of muscle without actually having the strength to back it and if you want to get technical about that, you can explain it by muscle density (A large looking muscle can be overpowered by a smaller one because the smaller one is more dense and therefore stronger). You only gain a base set of stats for the specified race, but that doesn't mean you have to keep yourself from LOOKING like you have more than you do.

Also, it was mentioned that you do not instantly know how to act as the person you are imitating. Bear in mind that if a wizard polymorphs into someone, the PLAYER behind the screen isn't going to know exactly how to act like that person and this will be reflected in their RP. Taking this a step further, neither the character nor player will know of the assumed person's history and if quizzed due to suspicion, they are likely to fail that quiz.

So, basically what I'm getting at is that I'm for allowing people to take other people's form because it's already limited the way it should be IC. The effect is basically going to be that anyone who hasn't met the person whose form has been taken will likely be fooled (as they should be) whereas those who HAVE met the real person are going to notice something wrong (OOC of course, which can be transfered IC.). The wizard polymorphing isn't gaining any real advantage because they aren't gaining the assumed person's stats/skills/feats/powers/etc., they're only gaining the person's appearance and the only value that really has here is RP value. And the great part is: ALL of this is achieved with the current code. I've not suggested doing anything beyond what the code lets you do.

There's my 2 cents.

[Rhiel]

Aye Tavik. That's what I was trying to get at up top, and finally just gave up.

[Arothian]

While I do not appreciate your comment beforehand over a mistake I made, I do think I might be wrong in this case.

For various reasons I will not go into, I have been, and am still particularly grumpy. I mean no offense, I just get tired of people arguing of semantics and every letter of a rule.

I'm going to bow out of this discussion now, because I feel I have no further input that would be accepted with an open mind.

[Selveem]

It is my opinion that this transmutation can duplicate as an illusion would. The difference being that this is physical change. I don't see why this is such a big issue, however..