Leaving Waterdeep

Dapher · Post by **Dapher** » Sun Sep 16, 2007 6:19 am

Don't worry Selveem, Dapher has a horibble time trying to get enough money to pay for spell components. The darned things keep going up in price....kinda feels like gas prices to me. But anyway, yes expenses are a problem for my wizard. Frankly my ranger, and my fighter have no problem gathering money, but my wizzy has a hard time. And the cost of dying....well, not quite sure what that is like anymore, my ranger does not die, and Dapher has not been on an adventure recently.

Xerarack · Post by **Xerarack** » Sun Sep 16, 2007 6:30 am

I don't seem to have a problem getting coin, I started to this character about 6 or seven years ago, but I know Xerarack has found a "Nich" in the game, as do all the other players that don't have troublegetting coin. I think the basic problem is people are expecting more coin than they get for their trouble.....As for the lack of adventuring people. I sit in the square all the time and never get an offer to go on any dangerous quests so I take off on my own adventures or business trips. However it is nice that we have a player base that likes to sit in the square a bit more and RP or buy stuff

I just think the dynamics of the game is changing to where more characters want to sit and RP rather than hack and slash RP, I prefer to do both. But now I'm rambling on, but I think you get the point

Rhianon · Post by **Rhianon** » Sun Sep 16, 2007 3:23 pm

The cost, trying to get a party together that can actually stay together, try getting a large group together and by the time everyone has gotten ready and prepared, someone has to leave, time zones, personality conflicts, and then there are those who haven't done needed quests to get into specific areas, but are williing to go along. By the time you get all necessary things done so the whole group can go, it has been hours, and the momentum is gone and the desire to do this one thing you set out to do doesn't seem worth the trouble. Everyone is so bent on making this so much like real life that the fun is hard to find anymore, so it is just easier and less time consuming to just sit around and talk.

If I have offended anyone with this post, I apologize.

Selveem · Post by **Selveem** » Sun Sep 16, 2007 11:15 pm

*shrugs* I hate to say it, but I agree. With all the focus on RP and 'making the MUD realistic' I'm starting to feel everyone's character should gain weight.

I know I've had to go out on my own and just kill crap because I've felt stagnant just idly chatting with people who play characters that are just trying to get an IC rise out of yours. To me, that gets old very quick.

I like RP - I wouldn't want there to be less RP. I just wish that there was more activity too. Why bother having weapons, spellbooks, prayers and armor in the game if no one really can use them?

Emrys · Post by **Emrys** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 2:37 am

There's a lot of truth to what's being said. I think it is time to assign blame. This is the fault of you OLDIES! Yes, the older players! Maybe even you, Selveem!

Since I've started playing, I have learned one important truth: Adventuring alone = death + long hours waiting to be ressurected. But where are the people I'm supposed to be adventuring with? If falls upon YOU VETERANS to teach me the ropes!

There have been some efforts along these lines. Caelyvar dragged me into the Undermountain saying 'Let's see how deep it goes! We'll try not to let you die!' Horace says, 'Howling peaks sounds dangerous. Hire me and I'll keep you alive.' Marvelous! Great stuff. And we learn... we really do.

And, I think, that's all that's needed. Poke a newbie and say, 'Hey I'm off to see how long I can last against a dragon. Wanna come?' I'm not that smart... I'll follow you.

Selveem · Post by **Selveem** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 3:09 am

You're right, actually. A lot of that does fall on us newer players to 'teach you the ropes' so to speak. I appreciate your candor in the subject and will try harder to involve more lower level characters in different quests. The only reason I generally shy from doing so is because I feel guilty sucking up every bit of experience they would normally get.

Sometimes, I also feel like I'm taking away from their enjoyment by killing everything so quickly - it's taking away from the danger that one might normally face in such areas. If I had a bunch of characters all various levels and various alignments, it would be so much easier.

In the past, I could do something like that. Experience is much different now than it used to be. I really do wish there was a way to limit the number of attacks I use or place a -% modifier that I can toggle myself to make you do most of the work (thus not taking all your experience, too).

If anyone would like to be involved or needs any help with different quests, please feel free to PM me. I would love to help with them and enjoy the roleplay that goes along with actively doing something.

Horace · Post by **Horace** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 5:28 am

With Horace I have the benefit of playing the apathetic mercenary, where i can just go into nofight with lots of rescues and a smoted attack here and there if things get a little hairy. I try to make Horace do it in a way where it obviously comes across he's only there because of coin, and doesn't care about the others life or training (when obviously as a player I don't want the other player to go through the hassle of death and all the mechanics surrounding it)...I think there are plenty of ways to essentially do the same thing but with different motivations.

And especially with new characters you have an opportunity to flesh out bits of the other player's PC. You get to ask questions about family, friends, where they were born, their favorite whatever...stuff that eventually gets all fleshed out down the road even if you don't ask, but laying it out right off the bat sort of sets that precedent with the other player to show that this really is a roleplaying game - and characters may actually care about mundane horse droppings that they now have to make up on the spot.

Japcil · Post by **Japcil** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:58 am

Going nofight/spar should allow the other player to gain a better portion on the xp totals.

Kregor · Post by **Kregor** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 1:00 pm

In comment to the statement about the majority of goodies being timid, and unwilling to go out on a dangerous adventure, this is not always out of some desire to sit someplace and be "safe". Using the term "timid" can also mean "pragmatic".

Kregor has gone on some dangerous adventures in his two thousand hour, 50 level career, but there are plenty of places he has not seen, and not adventured. He has never gone beyond where you need a quest to enter the Undermountain, for example. It's not for his lack of wanting to do so. But, for one, I take death ICly seriously. That's not being timid, that's considering death something traumatic, and life changing; I do this both ICly and OOCly. I've long frowned on the mentality that some have of dying being just a little hiccup that a trip to the heal-o-mat can take care of. Kregor has died I think a total of six times. Three were the first week of his life, when I was still learning my way around the game. From then on, it became a point of strategy, and effort, to do things in a way that would result in NOT death. That typically means no venturing into some strange place alone, or with a poorly run group.

I also tend to lack patience with groups who want to go and bullrush through X quest area. It is not fun to go and plow through an area to the big shiny thing at the end for me. The characters I have that have ventured further in the Undermountain, it has typically been just that, I'm going along for the drag... or if I'm leading, and take the time to actually RP my adventure, inadvertently someone taps their foot. It's very discouraging, and I will typically just leave a group if I find they want to rush through.

This IS an RP mud, after all. If I just want to solo through quest areas, and follow the leet lists and walkthroughs to get to the shiny thing, I can do that on one of a million mmorpg's, slash muds and third person hacker games. I want RP, whatever I'm doing. If I have to sit somewhere to get the RP, then I'll just sit.

Dalvyn · Post by **Dalvyn** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 1:58 pm

That's a dichotomy that I have noticed too... a strong separation between roleplay and questing, as if there were some unspoken rule that either you go to sit in the Market Square or your favourite tavern and you do nothing but roleplay, OR you go explore a new area/complete a quest and do not "lose time" on roleplay.

Many builders try, as much as possible, to craft quests that "make sense" in the world. Some quests from far-away areas are related because the same historical character is mentioned; other quests do fit in the theme of the area and have NPCs behave in a consistent way. All this can be a topic for roleplay.

It looks like people have two completely distinct modes : the Market Square mode and the quest mode:

Market Square mode means that you react when the weather is changing, that you chat about what you did yesterday, that you smote a lot, that you express what your character feels, wants, desires, has done, and so on; it also means that you integrate into your roleplay all the things that you see/hear (e.g., an echo about a sailor walking through the room, an imm echo, ...)
Quest mode means that you don't "waste time" commenting on the NPCs or monsters that you meet, that you do not "waste time" reacting to the room descriptions or objects that you find, that you do not question the motivations of the mobs who give you a Quest, that you do not wonder why they need that or why thy asked you and not someone else.

I can sometimes understand good ol'Halaster when he gets bored watching people who do not smote, do not speak except to inquire whether the casters' meditation is over, but just move along in the most "efficient" way.

Try considering a quest as yet another excuse to produce some roleplay some time ... take your time roleplaying your way through the quest with those who journey with you.

(That being said, I felt like piping in, but it's not really the topic of this thread).

Selveem · Post by **Selveem** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 2:05 pm

Yes, you're right. I have already stressed the importance of RP to this MUD. But also, remember this is a MUD. This is not real life. It should not be treated as real life. Others have said it before, I'll echo: If this was "Real Life", no one would want to play.

I enjoy my life. I enjoy what I do. I enjoy my friends. That doesn't mean I'm not a fickle Human who enjoys fantasy.

I appreciate your playing style. But, if you are taking 15 mins per room moving through Undermountain, you'll never complete it. You're not going to find a group big enough to have the patience to spend 15 mins per room. Undermountain is big and full of powerful, aggressive creatures. While you're busy smoting out eating your rations with your fingers, your party is dying to <insert random 'I'm going to kill you' creature here>.

Dangerous places are to test your ability and your character's strength.

Kregor · Post by **Kregor** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 2:59 pm

Selveem wrote:While you're busy smoting out eating your rations with your fingers, your party is dying to <insert random 'I'm going to kill you' creature here>.

Dangerous places are to test your ability and your character's strength.

If this is the way everyone else truly feels, as you say, then I guess Dalvyn and I are in the minority. Perhaps it's because we are two people who take the time to try and build quest areas that also tell a story. Undermountain is rich with history, and elaborate room and mobile descriptions. Multiple quests tie together, and make an even more complex story. Same with areas I've built like Drow Keep, and Tangled Trees, which are fully tied with not only canon stories and novels, but some people's IC backstories that led to the building of the areas. Any of these places, if you take the time, and actually just pause here and there to take a minute to discuss what you see, you actually learn, and can actually play a part into a story, rather than just, as you put it a "test of strength or ability".

Sorry, the fantasy and imagination have just as much a part in the adventuring as the rest of the roleplay of the MUD. If you contest this, then you basically trash the effort of the building team to make quests more than just an affair where you walk in, kill <monster> and get <shinything>. Quite frankly, if this is the only point of adventures, and dangerous places, then there's no need for the building team to waste their time, is there? We could just fill the MUD with huge Combat Carnival type arenas to kill big mean monsters in exchange for money and prizes.

Selveem · Post by **Selveem** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 4:54 pm

First, please excuse my having derailed this thread.

To Kregor: Forgive me if you took offense, perhaps I was not explaining myself enough? Otherwise, my words are yet again being taken out of context.

Please allow me to explain:

I enjoy roleplaying, too. But I cannot _only_ smote and never utilize other code-based commands. If I did not use anything other than smote, I personally would find this MUD rather boring (as candid as possible).

While building enriches the fantasy and its setting, the actual code is what binds everything together.

I am by no means saying that I don't roleplay when I'm on quests, but 'over-roleplaying' (I'm well aware I'm going to be smashed for this term) can be detrimental to one's health in very dangerous areas.

Example:

You have taken the time to find people brave enough to search this interesting cave that tunnels beneath a large mass of water. As you emerge from where the water level meets above-water cave, the party begins to search around (in the "room").

You take the time to study the walls and check for traps. The rogue in the party suggests there are no traps and you glance forward into the darkness. Being a human warrior, you see very little. Luckily, other party members such as the mage chimes in about some Kuo-Toa scout ahead.

To be safe, you advance slowly and continue to advance. By the time you've RPed clearing the "room", four Kuo-Toa have now advanced on the party. To maintain your IC performance, your party goes killmode nofight and attempts to reason.

The wizard of the party speaks the language (Kuo-Toa have their own) and tries to reason with them. They continue to RP their characters resorting to violence only when absolutely necessary - trying to further explain that they are just curious and wish permission to study the land and its culture.

By now, three more have entered the "room". At this point everyone is at 50% their health. The priest's head pops off due to a few lucky swings. The wizard begins attempting to cast some blinding spells to save the party and make a clean get-away.

The blind spells were successful and the remainder of the party attempts to flee: "type flee" - unfortunately, two of the remaining three members of the party have fled deeper into the Kuo-Toa cave and are being assailed and finished off.

The surviving warrior is now stuck between facing the remaining five Kuo-Toa and likely drowning himself to swim through the water in full plate. Good luck.

That's fine. I'm cool with that. Enjoy. Meanwhile, I ICly want to live and will allow code to fight what's attacking me.

I'm not suggesting by any means you should not roleplay during quests; I am not saying you shouldn't reflect on the actions of your character and the experiences they've earned.

I do that. All I am suggesting is that there are many different playing styles and when you're in a dangerous area, sometimes you should perhaps concentrate on keeping your party alive?

Rhianon · Post by **Rhianon** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 5:43 pm

I agree with Selveem on this one. If you spend so much time RPing each room, people will eventually leave the party----"Mom says I have to go." "I have to leave for work now, sorry can't stick around." "Can someone please get my corpse out for me I have to go now." And all this after you have spent four or five RL days just getting the group ready to even go on the adventure.........Or after you have gotten a few levels into undermountain all of a sudden there are some disagreements on how things should be done........arguing ensues, and viola' fun is over, people are leaving and nothing, asolutely nothing got accomplished after spending all that time trying to get a party together to try and have some fun and do a quest...........Perhaps if I were a builder and a putter togetherer sort of person who understood all the technology that goes into this it would change my view, but I doubt it. I used to play FK for the fun and simple fantasy of it. But in the effort to make it so RL like, it has just gotten to be like life itself, a struggle. I keep hoping I will find a combination that will bring back the fun, but with so many out there telling us how to RP our characters, and what sorts of things we should be doing. Just seems to be like Real Life but even worse, because we have absolutely no control.

Sorry if I have stepped on anyone toes, that was not my intent

Mouat · Post by **Mouat** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:31 pm

To anyone wishing to go adventuring, my two goody chars will go along for almost anything. I almost never say no.

It has taken me some time to finally find people willing to go on trips. I guess some people would rather RP at the square (nothing wrong with that) or some people have "been there, done that" and all the best to them.

I'm not nearly as knowledgable as others but i'm willing to help out... on either of my higher chars....

Mouat, ranger of Mystra always willing to help...

my Priest.... always willing to help even though it's getting pretty expensive...

As per RPing while in groups, I find....

1) If the group is large, sometimes it's just best to get through the quest. I know I find it difficult to keep track of what is going on when just two people are RPing in the group, if more than that start RPing, you lose track of what's going on and that if not careful, you might die if somebody doesn't take the bull by the horns and trudges through... no, it's not ideal but, it's what will keeps the group from dying...

I've been on my rescue missions with my alt and it's great when we do some RP before the rescue, get in there and get out fast, then do the RP after... great stuff.

2) if the group is relatively small and the quest isn't too dangerous, there is great RP, i recently went on a quest with Cheriana and Gesine, and I thought our RP with ourselves and the mobs was great (my apologies to both of you, I wanted to reward you both and never got around to it...) but the RP throughout the quest was do-able because the quest wasn't terribly complicated or dangerous and the group was small.

Just my two copper coins for what it's worth...

Kregor · Post by **Kregor** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:04 pm

Selveem wrote:when you're in a dangerous area, sometimes you should perhaps concentrate on keeping your party alive?

Uncannily enough, when I'm the leader, or guiding a party, the party typically does stay alive. The times people die are times when the party is dragged along behind a person trying to "git er done". There actually are better, more effective ways to complete some quests besides run in with your weapons and charge!

I admit, I specifically design some of my quests to result in failure if you run in slinging your sword and don't ask questions or make comments. Slashing is not heroic; letting the villain have his monologue is. That's classic genre, it's not a bug, you just fail at being a hero. If you're careful, you just might achieve the same purpose, and end up with more reward in the end. If you're not, you just might end up with no reward, or worst case TPD.

As far as places like Undermountain, I'll counter with this... what's wrong if you run out of time while you're in the middle of it? What's wrong with saying "Okay, we'll say we all camped here, and arrange a time for us all to get back together to take on the next level. You know... kind of like how it would be gathered around a table playing together. The paper Undermountain adventure is designed to take several sessions to finish; why should we expect that the press for Skullport on FK should be done in a single sitting? We're getting out of Waterdeep, aren't we? For more than one day!

Selveem · Post by **Selveem** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:20 pm

I knew this would be asked and I already had a response prepared:

The easy reason? Because it's generally someone's 'primary' or 'main' character who would have to be camped. When those same people can't meet again for another week it puts a huge damper on the entire thing and most of the time people had already recalled out. So you will get people who are now stuck alone in Undermountain if they are to log in with (generally) no viable means for escape.

Most people won't wait a full week (or sometimes more) to play their main character unless their schedule simply doesn't allow them to MUD at all any of those other days.

Japcil · Post by **Japcil** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:39 pm

I'll admit that one thing I, as a player, don't like to help on quests that I have already done. I have two reasons for this:

1. I don't really know how to act having already done it. An example is I enter the room and NPC says Thank you for all your help Japcil and the other player follows me in and the NPC says Want to help me out? I'd rather log into an alt that hasn't done the quest and help this player, than experience deshavue(sp?) with Japcil.

2. In many cases I refuse to help mainly because its the undermountain. I hate the area on all my PC's but one. I love how it was coded, its a piece of artwork really, but that area and the kobold mines just get walk throughed too much. If im not the leader, I never have the chance to read the room descriptions. Another reason I hate to follow anyone to anywhere, they just speed through the wilderness to get somewhere. I almost want to roleplay being cripled just to slow the pace down.

Dalvyn · Post by **Dalvyn** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:47 pm

Counter-argumentation by taking things to the extreme wrote:Meal time. Rivulets of smoke float in the air above the bowls filled with hot soup. Little John has been playing in the garden for two hours and comes to the table.

Little John's mother: Little John, go wash your hands before you sit down and eat.

Little John: No, no, no ... that's impossible. If I go and take a shower, cut my toenails, then brush my teeth, then wash my hair, then comb my hair then clean my ears ... if I do that, my soup will be cold when I am back. So, no, you can't realistically expect me to go do what you ask of me.

Whoever wrote that you had to spend your time writing 3-line-long smotes while mobs are bashing you and your friends? Whoever said that you had to comment the room descriptions while the lich is scorching you?

It's been changed (several months ago) so that you can murmur while you meditate. Use this time to roleplay and share opinions and comments about the situation. Use downtime when you are revisiting rooms that you know to make a smote or two. Do not be afraid to take breaks and decide to camp down for a few RL minutes while casters meditate and the group eats and drinks.

P.S. déjà-vu, Japcil ... déjà = already, vu = seen, déjà-vu = already-seen, "re"living something that you have already lived/seen/imagined.

Japcil · Post by **Japcil** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:52 pm

Psh I dont know how to make those letters...