Newbie Friendly?

[Emrys]

Is Forgotten Kingdoms really ‘newbie friendly’?

Just my opinion. And a couple ideas.

Good stuff…

1. Character Creation: Brilliant. The character creation process hooked me as much as anything else. I like having various famous characters explain aspects of the game. And all the major aspects of gameplay are covered. I cannot see any way to make this better.

2. Player Friendliness: Just about every player seems genuinely willing to help out a newbie. New characters are invited right into existing roleplay. Excellent.

3. Ask: The newbie question channel. At 7 am, only four characters on (including me). I toss out a question on Ask. Instant response. I have never failed to get a polite, helpful response. I cannot see any way to improve.

4. Imm Friendliness: Only once have I had to interact directly with an immortal. The matter had to deal with selecting an acceptable name. The immortal wanted to explain to me why some of the names were rejected. Unnecessary (I thought), but certainly kind and thoughtful.

5. Help Files: I tend to think that I should be able to get all my information from the help files, without resorting to the ‘newbie channel’ or bugging the imms (friendly or not). Though not perfect, the help files are comprehensive and regularly updated. No problems here.

Maybe we could improve here?

6. Survival: I tend to be a cautious player. Even so, when starting a new MUD, my first couple characters are burned learning the system. My third character is generally the one I play for keeps. Forgotten Kingdoms burned through an unprecedented SIX characters (and eight deaths) before I got the hang of not dying. SIX! I almost quit, but other aspects of the game hooked me. A lot of this was my own mistakes, but I reckon a lot of newbies would have just gone back to the Mud Connector to find another MUD.
My opinion: I think new players need to be made more aware of the importance of not soloing (esp at low levels), and taking the time to get to meet other characters. You can’t send a tell when you die to have your friends get your corpse if there’s no one logged on you know.

7. Guilds: Faith, guilds, councils, whatever – they are player-run organizations. Needs some changes, I think (though I’m not quite sure what). Characters start out as a base class like warrior or priest, and are expected to eventually become an advanced class, a fighter, ranger, bard, cleric/druid of a specific deity. Well, 4 months in and 500 hours of play later, I still have yet to attain an advanced class. Part of it could be my own fault – I tend to like playing clerics. Maybe clerics are a more challenging class to enter? Maybe, through sheer perverse luck, I have picked faiths that are not that active? (Good thing I am not partial to paladins).
Not sure what needs to be changed, really. I do think, though, that if a new player suddenly finds out he can expect to wait up to a year to become a paladin, for example, he will be discouraged and head back to the Mud Connector. And although I’m sure players are trying to be helpful, telling stories such as, ‘I had to wait X years for my X to become X…’ just adds to the discouragement.
Things that might help: Faith/Class note boards, where hopefuls can post their desire and check for responses. Providing a list of ‘default’ faiths, that are presumably filled with very active faith managers. Flag classes like Paladin as ‘advanced’ classes for expert players (word it more nicely, though).

I’d like to see ideas on how it can become more newbie friendly, especially as we climb in ranks at the Mud Connector.

[Raona]

Emrys - I just want to say thank you for initiating this discussion, and for such a thoughtful summary of the current situation. I think you are right on the mark.

As to possible ways to help with 6) and 7):

Do you think adding more explanation to character creation would help? I think there's actually something in there about engaging other PCs, the hard part for me was believing that the veterans really wanted to spend their time helping a newb like me, and that I could bug them. The MS was my salvation, without question. (And thanks again to Rilm and Andreas and Kristopher and...)

On point 7: There is a (now larger, I think) window in which you die all too easily just trying to explore. For Raona, dying was one of the coolest things that happened to her, after the initial bummer-ness. She got help, both from sympathic folk and from Imms, and that was great RP. But drowning is a hard way to learn you can't swim...even if it is realistic! But during the dark hours when nobody else is around (when I think you are often on, Emrys), it's really depressing...and hopeless.

Sorry, this is not a good reply...I will try to be more eloquent when I've more time! But I wanted to concur with your main thesis!

[Kirkus]

I just want to ask a question as to why you would consider a character a 'Burn'? Yes there is a learning curve but to me any character added to the realm is a story to be explored. I have plenty of alts I would love to spend time on but Kirkus is my first and his story to me is the one that comes first, when I get time out of my college life to play that is.

Which brings me to my next point and your last point. True changes are needed but they, as they always are, are in the works. The mud is constantly changing. It is vastly different than the game I began playing so many years ago. But as always, I urge you to remember that every one of us has a more important life in the real world. I would love to be online every day but my college studies and alas, my poor finances, demand I work and go to class. Waiting real life time isn't fun but noone can say 'hey! I take precedence to your wife and kids.'

I think the paladin system is amazing in theory. I say in theory since I have never had created a would be paladin. But I have said it before, I think characters teaching characters is the way to do it. I feel our problem in this department comes with not enough guys to cover all the squires.

And finally I heartaly agree that a Faith note boad would be usefull. The big hurdle here as I understand it, is this... We only have so much space on the boards and an area per faith won't fit. We would need something like a whole nother site. But I have hopped for something like this for a long time. It would be a lot easier for people like me to check and post about stuff and schedule things like a big rp that I would be willing to call in slick to work for...

Please don't take this as a bash on your ideas, just my thoughts on the topics.

[Emrys]

FK is really meant to be a group adventure. Emphasizing this during character creation might help. I think new characters will still die learning the truth of this, but it makes it less of a bitter pill to swallow.

Another idea I had is in relation to areas. You can use the ‘area’ command to get a list of areas in the game and their relative difficulty. However, not all areas are immediately identifiable when entering them. It would be nice if you could enter a zone, type ‘area’ and it would tell you the name of the zone and relative difficulty.
Along with that thought, the difficulties are currently defined by low, medium, and high level areas. I think adding a ‘newbie’, or very low level description (under level 10) might be helpful.

The fact that players have lives should not be a problem, even if they are faith managers. None of us can play 24/7, and I think even newbies understand that. I think (just my opinion) that the thing that makes it hard is that there is no good system of communication set up. As a new player, I am told to be patient... but not how long I will need to be patient for? Or what I am actually waiting for?
The help files on faith managers were not that helpful, either. But I understand they are being updated currently.

Off topic: Why do I burn characters? Not saying it’s good practice, but anytime I start a new game I usually go through one or two characters to learn the ropes – how combat works, how skills, training, and XP work, etc. How death works (death is almost always hard for me, but I like the way FK handles it). Then I build the character I want to play.
I burned more characters on FK than any other game because it is easy easy easy for newbies to die, and hard to recover from. The hard part particularly kicks in once you are over level 10. In my case, I often play early mornings, when few other players are on. This makes it hard to group, and hard to get someone to recover the body if you die.
As an example, I had a character die in Faerdale. No one was playing that I knew. What can I do? I can reincarnate (losing a point of Con), hang out naked in the square and hope someone will come by and take pity on me. I can’t even go find my body because I have no money to get back to Faerdale. Honestly, I just didn’t have the heart to come back from the grey realms facing that prospect. Character burned (May Kelemvor judge him wisely).

[Raona]

Another idea I had is in relation to areas. You can use the ‘area’ command to get a list of areas in the game and their relative difficulty. However, not all areas are immediately identifiable when entering them. It would be nice if you could enter a zone, type ‘area’ and it would tell you the name of the zone and relative difficulty.
Along with that thought, the difficulties are currently defined by low, medium, and high level areas. I think adding a ‘newbie’, or very low level description (under level 10) might be helpful.

I believe there are now several new "newbie" level areas in the game - the helpfiles have yet to catch up. You aren't the first to suggest giving newbies a way to tell if an area is over their head. The counterpoint raised has long been that ICly, you have no way to tell you are about to be whacked by an umber hulk. NPCs have been put in place to warn players, in some places; in other places books and tales warn new players of hazards. But certainly a new new player is going to die...several times. We could perhaps add something along the lines of "You have a very bad feeling about this place..." when your level is no match for the quest/area you about to delve into, but then again, that rubs up against IC realism. I think the toughest things are when you die a "stupid" death - drowning, bumbling into a dragon, that sort of thing. When that happened to me, though, it was usually a result of my being a little too curious or hardheaded! The difference was that I was able to be online when more help was available.

[Lathander]

I think this is a great topic. Thank you for starting it. I also very much appreciate the identification of the things you find positive about the mud; it adds a lot of weight to your points about the things that need improvement. These types of positive discussions are the best.

Two points.

One:

However, not all areas are immediately identifiable when entering them. It would be nice if you could enter a zone, type ‘area’ and it would tell you the name of the zone and relative difficulty.

Everyone has different play styles and preferences. My PERSONAL preference as a player is that I never ever look at an area's difficulty rating. I LOVE exploring and all that comes with it. I tend to ask others, if possible, about an area before going there alone. I remember screaming at the screen "What?!? NO NO NO!!!" and frantically banging different commands to no avail the first time I drowned one of my PCs. Man was that a rush! But that's just me. Having something like an "area" command might be more to another player's liking.

Two:
There are indeed some new things in the works toward improving the game. When aren't there? I am really proud to say that the imm team along with some very dedicated player staff constantly strive to improve the game. Quite a few ideas, after they are run through the ringer of debate, prove themselves to be less than ideal for FK and they never see the light of day (er, that'd be me, ya know, sunny guy and all). Yet the debate strikes up different ideas that do get implemented. The amount of ideas posted by players for all kinds of things is huge! They can't all make it and even the good ones end up on a rather long list. I say all this just to get across that just because idea X or Y isn't in FK doesn't mean it is a bad idea (though it could be) or that it won't be considered for the future.

As imms (and player staff) we take on the responsibility of prioritizing these ideas, debating them, refining them and implementing them. We also recognize that we have a patient and devoted playerbase. Thank you for both your support of what we continually do for FK and your suggestions for our improvement.

[Raona]

6. Survival: I tend to be a cautious player. Even so, when starting a new MUD, my first couple characters are burned learning the system. My third character is generally the one I play for keeps. Forgotten Kingdoms burned through an unprecedented SIX characters (and eight deaths) before I got the hang of not dying. SIX! I almost quit, but other aspects of the game hooked me. A lot of this was my own mistakes, but I reckon a lot of newbies would have just gone back to the Mud Connector to find another MUD.
My opinion: I think new players need to be made more aware of the importance of not soloing (esp at low levels), and taking the time to get to meet other characters. You can�t send a tell when you die to have your friends get your corpse if there�s no one logged on you know.

7. Guilds: Faith, guilds, councils, whatever � they are player-run organizations. Needs some changes, I think (though I�m not quite sure what). Characters start out as a base class like warrior or priest, and are expected to eventually become an advanced class, a fighter, ranger, bard, cleric/druid of a specific deity. Well, 4 months in and 500 hours of play later, I still have yet to attain an advanced class. Part of it could be my own fault � I tend to like playing clerics. Maybe clerics are a more challenging class to enter? Maybe, through sheer perverse luck, I have picked faiths that are not that active? (Good thing I am not partial to paladins).
Not sure what needs to be changed, really. I do think, though, that if a new player suddenly finds out he can expect to wait up to a year to become a paladin, for example, he will be discouraged and head back to the Mud Connector. And although I�m sure players are trying to be helpful, telling stories such as, �I had to wait X years for my X to become X�� just adds to the discouragement.
Things that might help: Faith/Class note boards, where hopefuls can post their desire and check for responses. Providing a list of �default� faiths, that are presumably filled with very active faith managers. Flag classes like Paladin as �advanced� classes for expert players (word it more nicely, though).

Yay! I finally have the time to give a more thoughtful and complete reply to this now.

Emrys, I think you and I are unusual in that both of us started as newbies with most of our playing time during the predawn-US hours when the MUD is least populated. (In my case, I was an utter MUD newbie, to boot!) I'm keen to ask other new players if their experiences were different than our own (mine being very much like yours - death was met with rather a large dose of helplessness and despair).

Did you run about mostly alone, not greeting people, as a very young PC?
Did you feel reluctant to "bother" veteran players?
Were you just too busy exploring?

During our timeslot, Emrys, there's very rarely anyone milling about the Square. Should veterans stroll into the training grounds and introduce themselves to young folks, perhaps? (I feel as though that's currently tabboo...is it?) Should there be verbiage in the helps or training underscoring the importance of meeting the few folks that are on, if you generally play when few people are?

As for faiths...there I think a long wait can be appropos. I know I waited nearly a RL year to decide on a faith, apply, and enter it. It was a great RP, though...and part of my faithing process was, without a doubt, seeing whether Raona had the tenacity to stick with her beliefs in the absence of official recognition. But your feedback point is excellent, Emrys. I was endlessly worried that I had failed to do something I needed to do, code or application-wise, in order to get the ball rolling, or something along those lines. Perhaps a reply of some sort from a deity saying that our prayer had been heard, and that we were being watched and must be patient? That in time a high priest would seek us out?

As for advanced classes, I think most have a kismet requirement. Paladins would be one clear exception: I'm not sure why they don't. Though I'm glad to have been able to make my first character a hopeful of the guild, it may have been better for me if it had not been possible. Clerics can also be a challenge, due to the faithing matter, and wizards, because they die so easily and need so much coin. But that's little different from standard D&D...if you want to survive, your best shot is as a grunt. But I wouldn't want to see every new player forced to go that route.

[Larethiel]

Okay, I'm a not-so-new-but-not-so-old-player of this MUD but can still offer my experiences

Did you run about mostly alone, not greeting people, as a very young PC?
Did you feel reluctant to "bother" veteran players?
Were you just too busy exploring?

It's been and still is the first MUD I ever played and play but I can share my experiences as well as a totally inexperienced newbie I did so much mistakes like messing with commands, accidentally asking on ask and praying and what-so-ever until I figured out how things worked The beginnings were sort of far from easy, so much new, confusing things and comands, a foreign language etc. etc., telnet didn't make it easier. Getting involved in a little part of an Imm-run Rp while figuring out how things worked after playing for two days was a bit horrifying but still exciting (It's like Player: Hmm, how do I go west...*ponder* Imm-echo: You see blablabla Player: Oo Eh? Omg! What is this?....halp!)

I was always very grateful when a veteran player took me along and showed me how things work, from simple support with advice, an otell à la "Try this and this command" to a detailed ooc-explanation on different killmodes and how to best act during a PC-fight. And the patience of some players was awesome when allowing me to try and test things

"Bothering" veteran players hasn't been too difficult but dealing with High Priests and other ICly important people was always sort of an adrenalin kick, when I asked myself "Do I do everything right?" or "Omg, what shall I do/say?"

Concerning exploring and the difficulties of areas I learned quickly that curiosity deals death very quick and merciless

I would be fine with allowing veterans to peek into the training grounds every now and then And I see no problem for veteran players or more experienced players to keep an eye open for young PCs that seem to come fresh out of the temple and might need some help/advice or to actively introduce themselves to people they don't know, like some PC already do. It's a good opportunity for further rp and young PCs might have someone they can turn to when in need for help.

And now I'm done with my babbling

[Selveem]

I am very much for being able to tell if an area is one that should be too difficult for you. Yeah, you can accidentally enter water and drown, but we now have a config option for that.

But in normal D&D, you had a GM (An Imm, if you will) who would generally not take your level 5 (level 2 in D&D) Zhentil Keep-starting newbie butt and let you just walk straight into a Dragon's Lair where you proceed to get flayed immediately for your tresspassing into what seemed like a pretty little questionmark..

I just think it would be fair to everyone. Everyone has a sort of sense for danger and would be able to see there were bones littering an area or massive scorch marks along the surrounding land before running into a pretty, half-molten cave.

[Solaghar]

Just chiming in with Selveem for that matter. Some sort of warning before difficult places akin to the Dwarf in Undermountain who tells you just how dangerous the place is would be welcome for new players I think. I once had a character in Mithril Hall a long, long time ago when I was a new player and without getting into too much detail, there is some extremely dangerous stuff out there, and being dead and knowing no-one is very tough.

When you think about it, an older player having the OOC knowledge so that they won't walk into any dragon lairs and the like, has a big OOC advantage even with new characters. The area command does separate most areas by their difficulty level, but for many places there's no real way to know what area you're in unless someone tells you. As tedious as it may seem for older players to have some mob standing outside of many areas warning people of the danger, I think newbies would appreciate it. Or at least a sign of some sort, if we're looking for something less intrusive.

[Dalvyn]

Instead of adding an "area" command that tells you "this is too dangerous for you here/this is fine for you here" [remains to see whether this information would be accurate : this is extremely difficult to determine whether a PC will survive in an area or not; simple things like whether or not the mobs are armed make a whole world of a difference for example, whether the PC is a wizard or a fighter makes a whole world of difference, whether the PC is alone or has a friend makes a big difference, ...] ...

So, instead of making an "area" command that will give, at best, very approximate information, isn't it better to incite the newbie to go ask elder players about the area? Not only will the information more precise, but it will have the added bonus of getting the PCs to know each other better.

[Nysan]

I once had a character in Mithril Hall a long, long time ago when I was a new player and without getting into too much detail, there is some extremely dangerous stuff out there, and being dead and knowing no-one is very tough.

So true...

[Glim]

I once had a character in Mithril Hall a long, long time ago when I was a new player and without getting into too much detail, there is some extremely dangerous stuff out there, and being dead and knowing no-one is very tough.

So true...

Funnily enough... me too.

[Dalvyn]

Your observations about Mithril Hall (which could also apply to Skullport or Menzoberranzan, or other hometowns that are not developped mostly because we do not have a wide enough playerbase to support so many options) reinforce my opinions that we would be better without those.

BUT ... this is not the topic of this thread, and, since the concerns raised here are very important (making newbies welcome to FK is one of the top priorities), let's not derail this thread any further (feel free to create a new thread to discuss it though).

So ... let us go back to discussing the original topic please.

[Sairaven]

Should veterans stroll into the training grounds and introduce themselves to young folks, perhaps?

It was my understanding they can't get into the training grounds under the temple of Oghma. "There is nothing else for you down that path" or some such.

As a new player, I feel like I should chime in. I started Sairaven as a warrior because that has always been my philosophy that you start with something easy to learn the game, then progress into harder character types (casters, rogues, etc).

I had a hard time making money and gear prior to level 10, then everything took off for me. I made a mistake, though, when looking at guilding. I wasn't aware that the school of combat = Fighter's Guild. Perhaps guilding could be explained a bit better? Perhaps I didn't know where to look? I don't know.

I am all for interaction with existing characters, as mentors IC or OOC. The hardest part about learning a new mud is just that: learning it. I can traipse around and get killed anywhere, but learning how this mud is different than my last one (and it's VERY different, even though both are D&D-based) is a task that MUST be done.

[Lathander]

Certain members of a particular council rank may enter those areas and help newbies. There are rules for their conduct in the training temples.

[Emrys]

I'm taking a break from the MUD for a bit, but I wanted to offer one more thought about what makes FK difficult for newbies. It's somethng Sologhar mentioned.

The way things are set up now, FK tends to discourage new players (not characters) from exploring. A veteran player will have little difficulty in avoiding dangerous areas and mobs and can, with minimal caution, safely traverse the realm. A new player can expect to die several times doing the same thing. In fact, each new area he chooses to explore holds the potential of a grisly death, with the only reward being that he now knows not to go there until he is at a much higher level.

While there is always a certain learning curve, this system tends to reward veteran players, even if they are using brand new characters. And that is NOT newbie friendly.

I tend to like the death system. But, it can be very hard on characters. On several occasions I have found that I have died + no one is on that I know (and/or is of suffcient level to recover my corpse). On the one occasion I supplicated the gods for aid, there was no response (I like to think that no gods were on, as I'm sure they would fight for the opportunity to ressurect me). That leaves the lukewarm option of reincarnating, which leaves the character weakened, naked, far from the place of death and with no means of recovering equipment. The only solution I see is to log in when more players are on, but the vagueries of a daily schedule don't always permit that.

I'm afraid I do not have any valid suggestions on how to correct the issues I see as problems. Perhaps someone else will have an idea. In any case, it was still lots of fun and I appreciate the support received. I hope to return from my break before too long.

[Rhianon]

It took this player one month to get disillusioned. HMMMMM??? How many others have we lost because of this same thing?

[Pascus]

Hello to everyone, I just wanted to start off by saying Forgotten Kingdoms has a great set-up. It really does as far as being newbie friendly, but the only thing I have had problems with is finding a adventure group. I mean a lot of people seem to sit around the square, and I can't tell if they are new also or veteren players. The Ask channel is a great thing, it seems like everyone is eager to help others get a understanding of the game which is a rare case for any of the still exsisting muds out there.

What was said about discouraging players from exploring is greatly true though, I am afraid as a player from going out without other people. But this is a realistic case, in Forgotten Realms when you venture out of the city walls you are basically saying "Come and get me." its a thrill.

My question is, are there any suggestions about finding an adventure with a group of similar leveled people? I do not have a problem finding people to roleplay with, but it is hard to find quests and such to do.

Any help is greatly appreciated.

[Selveem]

Pascus, please feel free to PM me or check my contact details for forming a similarly-leveled party. I'm sorry I was unable to meet you last time - your work schedule may conflict with mine. I'm available Monday-Fri after 5pm EST (GMT -5:00 - Washington DC timezone). Saturdays and Sundays I can try to be available whenever.

I agree with you, though. I do find this a major issue. Some people are thrillseekers like I am and want to have that type of fun as well. I'll do my best to keep it challenging for you without letting you visit Kelemvor.

Anyone else who is interested, similarly, in forming a party to adventure may do the same. This is not exclusive to new players.