Newbie Friendly II

[Rawlys]

The imms don't treat people special because they're new, IC is IC.

After a brief discussion with someone over the ask channel, that was the ultimate response. So, my question is (trying to be as subtle and calm as I can be): Why the heck not?

In all fairness, I can certainly understand IC consequences for IC actions. That makes sense, but in a game with so many commands and in such a large world (both of which, I'm very grateful for) is it not possible for someone to do something that they didn't intend to happen? The lack of understanding of how this game works as well as how the world functions, both are very easily associated with newbies.

I can understand 'encouraging' a more of a vetran player to follow through with his IC mistakes, for the sake of RPing and generally, it's entertaining (to one degree or another).

To always keep things IC isn't always the best option. That's very much a reason why we have otells, osays, and the ask channel... So, once again, why would we have the same standards for a newbie as we would for a vetran? It's one thing to enforce things to the letter of the law and it's another to enforce it in the spirit of the law.

(Sorry for the random thought process)

[Sairaven]

I would say that it should default back to GM's prerogative. Judge what happened, and if you feel, as a GM, that it is worth assisting with, do so. If it is not, then do not.

I strongly believe that actions of any kind must have consequences, and I advocate making that policy. Were it my game, it would be. Ours is not an easy world to live in, this digital realm.

But it is far, far more forgiving than many I have seen. I have been places where someone will run you through IC as soon as answer an OOC question, and this was a RP-enforced mud.

I have seen a mud where the GMs take no sides in any affairs, leaving things to be settled solely by the players. I can tell you, to see a GM staff as involved as the one here is, I feel it is a godsend.

This mud is exceptionally newbie-friendly, compared to the bulk of muds I have seen (and my experience is rather extensive, going back almost 15 years now). But we cannot forget that we, as players, must take responsibility for our actions. We cannot expect that our hands will be held, or we will miraculously find that 'get out of jail free' card in our inventory.

[Japcil]

I disagree. Many imms take time to retrieve miss given items for quests and the like for not only new but old players. Now the pc is there as first response, if they cant help a newbie then an imm will usually intervine. This may be seen as Imms not treating newbies special but its not.

Simple mistakes are simple mistakes. The only way to learn is to experience and to not experience a mistake is to not learn how to rp with the flow.

[Mele]

-I- said that, because the situation at hand calls for it. It's much more than a newbie doing something little. It wasn't an action of consquence, it was a roleplay responce to roleplay. No items were lost, limbs severed, bodies slain, stat points lost, kismet lost, glory lost, NOTHING. JUST ROLEPLAY.

Do not quote people out of context, you quoted me very much out of context I said many things before that, and that quote has no knowledge of the situation at hand with it.

If you have a complaint, email it to complaints. If you feel like something was done wrongfully to you, ask to discuss it do not use the ask channel informing you were wronged and demanding an apology.

If a new player performs an action, immortals will reply with an equal actions, good or "bad". It's roleplay. New players will not be allowed to do things that immortals would not roleplay with older players about simply because they're new. FK is a roleplay mud where IC actions have IC consequences. New players come to FK with blatent knowledge it's a roleplay mud.

[Rawlys]

* will answer your question about 'If an Imm is available: A newish player, about 24 hours ago, made a mistake with a recall. IC consequences were dealt, without any OOC knowledge. I'm just trying to clear up any muddy water for them. thanks'

* answers you with 'She was told to email in if she had a complaint. It was ic actions from ic roleplay, nothing more. '

You ask * 'The only reason I am asking is not for my benefit, but because of bad/hurt feelings of a newer player, trying to help her RL friend in game, by showing him the ropes. Now, about 3 newer players have a bad taste of FK in their mouth'

* answers you with 'Then if it's RL people they should be explaining IC actions have IC conquences, and you can't get hurt ooc every time you have some.. :\ More things will come up, it's poor to leave them thinking they won't have to deal with stuff..'

You ask * 'I understand that the best course of action would be to send in a complaint, but due to the bad taste... well, you understand what i'm saying'

* answers you with 'You need to not speak for them, since the imms did NOTHING wrong. You need to tell them IC actions for IC consequences.. plain and simple. It's not like they were slain or lost stats or anything. A snowball was thrown..'

You ask * 'A different view than myself, but that's fine... happy RPing'

* answers you with 'The imms don't treat people special because they're new, IC is IC. Have fun.'

* has finished answering your question. Hope the answer was helpful!

Now, there should be no more discussion about what was in context and out of context

It wasn't an action of consquence, it was a roleplay responce to roleplay

Please then, inform me as how the 'wind' could pick up someone's hand, create a snowball and throw it in their face? Is it IC for a deity to control someone's body, to act a certain way? I'm afraid it's not. That was totally OOC, to be able to do that. To the best of my knoweldge, characters in FK still have free will, the ability to chose who they wish to worship. If it wasn't that way, a deity could control someone and make them worship said deity.

With that being said, the WHOLE reason why I used the ask channel was to help clear up a situation that left mulitple people with a bitter taste of FK in their mouths. Did I miss something when we were trying to promote FK as being newbie friendly?

Lastly, I am not saying that the Imm did a bad thing. What I am saying is this: An OOC mistake was made and an IC result happened, to a newbie (the people we're trying to draw into FK *hint hint*). I would ask that before anything dramatic is done by the Imm team to someone who is 'realitively new', that a brief bit of time might be contributed to the new player, not because of IC RP but rather, because we're all human.

[Moloch]

How is it not IC for a GOD to control someone's body again?

[Vaedryn]

I have heard of this issue from the newbie involved and from SEVERAL other players. I would like to take this moment to lay out the case as I see it.

1) The issue IS NOT about GM participation and intervention in PC roleplay. The issue is in fact a SINGLE issue that was, perhaps, could have been handled in a more RPed way.

2) The player in question used the wrong command but stayed IC, as she was supposed to do, and went to rally help to get her friend.

3) Someone with control over the wind, I honestly dont visit the forums much because i like to stay in the total dark as much as possible usually, proceeded to call her a liar (according to what I was told) and froze the fountains etc etc etc.

Note: My compliments to whoever did this because it did a PERFECT job of displaying how a dieity angered in the realms would have acted (on impulse and to drive a point home) VERY high praise right up to this point.

4) the PC in question then proceeded to rp through her OOC blunder (misunderstanding of the game functions) and set out to help her friend.

5) this is the part where we have the blunder. The WIND, god, demon, whatever you want to refer to it ICly as, posessed her character, forced her to pick up a snowball, and hit herself in the face with it, then left with a sort of mocking laugh.

The PROBLEM? Mortals have free will and gods never take posession of them to the extent of turning them into puppets. Read any forgotten realms game manual or book and you can see that they manipulate but never directly can posess. Ao wouldnt allow it. The use of the posession was STRICTLY OOC and was misused (in my opinion) the same effect could have been had by simply having the wind itself throw the snowball rather than the character.

It seems like a little thing but in a whole game full of RPers I think we all know that the little things make this game what it is. The effect this has had is that three players are leary of playing because they fear if they blunder their characters, or accounts, may be possessed at any time to force a situation or action on them that they would not normally do. Manipulation is one thing, possion is entirely another.

As I stated. I was totally with the event and saw LOADS of character arcs that could develop from its interplay but when the pc in question was dominated like that it totally diffused it and created the situation we are seeing now.

My suggestion, POSSIBLY a sit down between whoever was responsible and the PC to explain things, but more than that just try and let this serve as a reminder that the powers that be in the stories we all love like to play the game of pitting people and beasts against each other but they NEVER directly possess a soul, its beyond them. so my opinion, again, is that the snowball throw was TOTALLY OOC.

This is my opinion, I'm a bit skittish so i fully expect i'll probably get set on fire or something. But I stand by what I say, I also want to go on record (since this whole post seems to have become a circus) as saying that I LOVE the GMs active roles in the game and they have done a WONDERFUL job keeping the rp hardcore. I just think its good to remember that they, like us, are human.

Vaedryn
(fully expecting to have all the gods cruficy him and hiding under his desk now)

[Vaedryn]

The reason is that according to FR lore, which this game is based on etc etc etc, AO, and pretty much the whole pantheon, laid down the law of free will. I could quote directly from the sourcebooks or from numerous novels (yes i have no life and have read nearly everything published under Dragonlance and Forgotten Realms) the reason is that the gods require the service and worship of FREE THINKING and ACTING beings to maintain their power. I refer you to the avatar cycle if you doubt me on this.

There are of course incidents of demonic posession but characters get saves etc etc etc. and even a wizards GEAS spell can only be bestowed by the free will of the recipient. I urge you to look it up and brush up on the lore. Also... you can read my self-damning post above for more specifics on how this rule relates to the incident described.

Vaedryn
(ahhhh crap.... i think i'm gonna get hit by a meteor when i log in again....)

[Vaedryn]

last post.

Even such spells as charm require the free, albiet loaded, choice of those charmed. they still have the ability to resist and break the enchantment. but thats more involved. in case anyone was wondering.

[Mele]

The character in question's name come up here on the forums as early as May. May through October, six months... and we're banking on newbie friendly here?

If you are unhappy with the roleplay recieved by an immortal discuss it with them.

Something like this:

Sonso asks 'Hey. I had some immortal interaction last evening, and I'm feeling a bit unhappy about the end result and I would like to speak with the immortal who ran it.'

Would have gotten much more cheery a responce to the whole situation. But dealing with a very negative and demanding first question - then their friend coming back at the player council maybe an hour later? That's not cool, I don't want to deal with someone's complaint all day because they're not getting immediate results. And I certainly don't want their friends coming at me, or any other council member about it for the second time in one day. I didn't do it, I can't fix it, I'm just here to help newbies with things I can fix, and direct them with what to do when I can't. And that's exactly what I did the first time the question came up, politely, promptly and even cheerfully.

Every single question that comes through is logged and can be picked through at any time.

The ask channel is not really the place to bring your complaints. The player council are definately not the people to bark at. Ask for the immortal, that's cool. Don't bark the situation at us, and if we say he's not there and to please email. Pop an email in. Nine times out of ten if an immortal pops in shortly after that, the council member will tell the immortal there was a player seeking them.

[Balek]

The reason is that according to FR lore, which this game is based on etc etc etc, AO, and pretty much the whole pantheon, laid down the law of free will.

Therein lies the rub. Forgotten Kingdoms is based on Forgotten Realms, but it not a slavish recreation of it. Our immortals have a little more leeway here to interact with players.

I didn't see any of this particular situation myself, but it seems like it went like this:

-A new player made an OOC mistake that had potential IC ramifications.
-The new player was apparently willing to roll with this IC. That's good. Some of the more fun and interesting roleplay events I've had here have come from mistakes.
-An imm, trying to interact and make the world feel more alive, made her throw a snowball at herself. This was not an OOC response. The imm was not being cruel. It's a text snowball.

I think you're making far too big a deal about this. As far as I know, no imm has ever 'possessed' a mortal and made anything of any consequence happen to them. In fact, this is the only case I know of in which someone could be described as 'possessed' at all. Nothing of any gravity or consequence happened. This strikes me as a pretty minor consequence.

Come on man, it's just a snowball.

[Vaedryn]

Ok.

A) player in question has no active e-mail due to a change in living conditions.

B) Has been afk for a long time due to said changes in living conditions albiet that is irrelevant since the point made was above was addressed in a previous post.

C) This is why i dont like using forums or the ask channel. too much drama. this is my last post for a VERY long time unless someone else asks me to try and explain things clearly. I RETIRE.

THANK YOU DRIVE THROUGH!

P.S. Illeterate people make me sad.

[Raona]

I still don't feel I understand exactly what transpired in the specific instance that seems to have seeded this, but:

1) I have found the Imms to be quite helpful to newbies, albeit they go out of their way to do it ICly whenever possible.

2) Imms have bad days too, and make mistakes. It's not wrong to call them on it. That said, there's a right and a wrong way to do it, I think. I would urge folks to use the complaints email, fkcomplaints@lists.skynet.ie, not the ASK channel or the forums. If, as it seems is the case here, the person impacted can't send an email, having a friend do so on their behalf seems fine. (Better still, if you know which Imm to contact, PM them directly and try to settle it without resort to a higher authority, first.) Short of needing help with the situation, please please please talk with the person you have a beef about before complaining to your friends about how much they or anything else sucks and is unfair. Give them a chance to make it right.

3) Imms are Imms. They call the shots. If a given Imm abuses their power, a higher Imm may intervene. But in the end, they decide what goes. We don't have to like it, but we play in their sandbox...still, I've found the Imms here very attuned to what the playerbase feels. I doubt they are happy about how this all turned out.

[Zilvryn]

Come on man, it's just a snowball.

My thoughts exactly.

P.S. Illeterate people make me sad.

It's spelt illiterate, oh the irony.

[Dalvyn]

Re: deity control

I do not really recall any piece of Forgotten Realm lore that would make it forbidden for a deity to "take control" of a mortal for a short while. That being said, even if it was indeed one of Ao's laws in FR, you would still have to take the following into consideration.

• FK is a recreation of FR; there are some differences.
• Some creatures (demons, spirits, ...) can possess people and make them act as they want. Imms on FK do not play the role of deities only; they can play other creatures as well.
• Possession is not required if you have the ability to control the wind and force movements on somebody's hand so that they would gather snow then throw it into their face.

This is to say: there is no blanket interdiction on mortal possession. That being said, one of the imms' goals is still to make the game fun, and the imms know that taking control of a player for a long time does not help with that goal (unless perhaps during a special roleplay with the agreement of the mortal's player).

Re: what happened

I read this thread, and also read a summary posted by the imm who ran the roleplay. Several echoes were sent to the player, who apparently did not see or ignored them. Now, such things happen to many players, and it does not really depend on whether or not the players are new. I recall sending echoes about demons invading Ardeep (that started a 12+ month-long roleplay) to two then-newbies (Siria and Larethiel) who reacted perfectly. And I also recall sending echoes to experienced players who ignored them repeatedly.

The echoes that were sent were given to help the new character at first: it looks like she was asking people for help to collect a friend's body, and the echoes were meant to help with that. Since the body was initially in the frozen north, it is quite likely that some kind of spirit of cold took notice of it and wanted to help ... then got a bit less friendly when he noticed that his attempts at helping were ignored ... till he decided to get more icy and push snow in that people's face.

I honestly cannot see any major blunder here, either from the imm nor from the player. The player should have perhaps given more attention to the screen and the echoes. The imm should have perhaps inquired OOCly as to why the echoes were ignored. But all in all, that whole thing seems to be relatively minor in comparison to the violence of some of the messages on this thread.

I would suggest that both the imms and the player in question (plus his/her friends) talk it out OOCly so that everybody is appeased.

[Lathander]

Boy, this topic sure has snowballed!

I agree with Dalvyn. It's a small issue in the scheme of things but one where both sides could have done things a little differently. Rather than point fingers and spit vitriol, why not look on it as a learning experience for both the imm involved and the players. Both parties can be better community members of the mud now. As can the rest of us who read and learned from their encounter.

[Oghma]

I agree with Dalvyn, there is far too much violence in this thread for such a minor rp. My perogative in doing any rp is as follows:

1. I look for a situation that can be rp'd, regaurdless of player, race or locations.
-this creates random rp situations that are usually a benifit to all players involved.

2. My main goal is to stay as ic as possible, as such I don't usually break for ooc once an rp has started unless there is an emergency. I can change that though to better address situations. The only cost of this would be disjointing an rp session, but if it is needed, it is needed.

3. I am not shy about utilizing the wide and varied coded events and programs in the mud itself through ic rp's where they might be used. Something like the snowball is both an interesting and fun rp event that does not physically harm or damage a player.

Things I have issue with:

This is a game, I am here to offer rp's. Most if not all rp is an excuse to reward players and allow them to do things out of the norm. I take offense that certain elements of my rp have been violently flamed as ooc and abusive. At no point was the rp in question ooc, but it acted as a response to certain ic events. I can only ask people to consider the validity of an rp from ic perspectives before immediately flagging it as ooc abuse.

I understand and respect the concerns of the player in question and invite them to pm me with their concerns or send an email to fkoghma@gmail.com I am a bit busy these days but if you want to talk and discuss what happened I would be very happy to. Also if you want I can discuss issues in game oocly.

Anything is a good experience for learning and I have learned alot in most encounters and look forward to learning more in the future.

[Selveem]

I have read this post in it's entirety. I apologize for my lack of presence in FK as of late - I've been busy with my own personal life and apologize if this post is late. My disclaimer is that I was not involved in the RP nor am I privy to any of the details aside from what has been stated here. I do, however, offer a suggestion that may be better placed in the 'Immortal Conduct' thread:

I have played an Imm elsewhere on many other MUDs. On a few of them, I was an Admin/Imp. If there is one thing I have noticed, it is that (most) people do not like to be 'forced' to do something in an RP game. Further to that, things that stretch the imagination when you're trying to remain IC definately do not help.

I don't mean to be offensive (surely plenty can criticize my RP), but 'wind' making me: first scoop up snow, then turn it into a snowball, and lastly making me shove the thing into my own face without my own ability to struggle against it sounds pretty ridiculous.

There are many reasons, aside from this, that a player might be offended, annoyed, angry, or even want revenge for a situation like this:

Who likes to feel powerless? Personally, if you're going to RP with me, I feel I should get SOME form of will or other such way to attempt to manipulate the circumstance in my own favor instead of just being some puppet. To me, if you want to 'force' people to do things all day, you might as well go create your own (disconnected) area from the MUD and plenty of mobs to force to do your bidding.

Who likes to feel belittled? If you're going to roleplay with me, respect that I am a player behind the character. Don't do something that is outside of the normal scope of the game just because you can. I resent condescending attitudes and actions. To me, when you exert control over me because I'm playing your game but not breaking any rules, I resent you.

Now, I could go on about other feelings that may be involved. But using the force command unnecessarily (not like you see someone drowning because some mob/area program pulled them out to sea while they were AFK) will more often than not leave a bad taste in someone's mouth.

[Lathander]

Selveem, while you ARE a little late to this particular party, your comments are valid. I think those things are easily categorized under what the imm involved in this case has learned. There is another side to things though and we ask that players learn from this as well. When echoes are sent by imms to assist players or to facilitate rp, we ask that the echoes not be ignored. In this case several echoes over time were sent well before the "possession" took place. All of those, for whatever reason, were ignored.

Now, to me at this point, this is a dead thread. It won't be closed or shutdown of course and people are free to continue it as they see the need. However, I think that much of what was stated above was done in anger and pushed the discussion to a heatedness it did not deserve. At this point I think it is best for everyone to take a step back, learn from the experience and continue working to make the mud an enjoyable place to spend our free time. Er, and the not-so-free time when we sneak in to play despite our wives telling us not to.