Magicy Skills/Trades

[Adabelle]

I was told that currently the only way to learn scribing, brewing, and wand/staff making is a from a PC.

Is this true?
If so... why?

[Nysan]

Consider them trades, which are taught only by PCs or entended quests from NPCs. Since they do not have quests, only leaves the other option.

[Dalvyn]

Wand/staff-making is not available at all as far as I know, and I'm not even sure whether the hard code is complete for it. Then, even if it was completely ready, there should still first be a discussion whether or not we should introduce it in the game.

For the other two skills, I'll bring up the following points to answer your questions.

1. Those particular skills have a very high unbalancing potential. It means, that, in the hands of careless players and/or without carefully thought-out restrictions, these skills can break parts of the game. The last time we had a mob trainer for brew for example, we saw a rush of soloers buying potions of strength, armor, and other spells so they could continue their solo actions. We would rather have people play (i.e., adventure) together rather than just come to the spellcasters to be spelled up or, worse, to just buy off potions.

2. What I describe above (the solo gaming) is one aspect of the game that can be broken by these skills, but it's not the only one. Economic can be broken too ... another thing we witnessed last time brew/scribe were trainable was that shops were filled up with potions of nonsensical spells and all merchants were out of money.

3. Those skills are "special", clearly above the norm. As such, I think that it would be better to make those skills special in how you learn them too. Putting skills at the end of a quest only does so much good. After the first two/three characters go through the quest, other people are just walked through the quest (that is especially true if the quest is made up of riddles). So, while quests are good enough for some skills, if you really want to make learning a skill "special", the best way I can think of is to make it so that you can only learn it from other people.

Now, learning from other people is currently impractical on the mud. The restrictions are crazy and completely over the top (i.e., you can teach only if you are a GM and, then again, you can only teach your apprentice up to inept). Better systems for PC-to-PC teaching have been suggested, even coded, and discussed in the last 8 months or so, but none of them have been approved to be put in the game.

At this point, I am persuaded that just putting a trainer for those skills would be a very cheap solution. I would rather have a good PC-to-PC teaching system first, and believe me, a lot of efforts have been made towards this goal. I can understand that some players might see me as the "bad guy" who should just make a mob teach scribe/brew instead of making everybody wait / "punishing" everybody because of that opinion though.

[Adabelle]

As for the economic aspect. There is a reason some people refer to potions and scrolls as Mouth Wash and Toilet Paper. They are abundant and cheap. Twenty-five platinum for a scroll or potion seems insane to me.

Unfortunately I think PC teachers has many problems also. Players move on... or become disinterested, especially those who have been playing long enough to Grand Master something like Scribing or Brewing. Look at how much trouble some people have getting joined to a faith because they can not get a hold of a Faith Manager.

Cliquishness... While everyone on the mud has been very nice cliquishness is something that all new players end up dealing with.

While I understand your point, these are my concerns.

[Selveem]

I'm not certain why scrolls and potions are so expensive anyhow. Off-hand, I don't remember how much something like a potion of healing costs, but I couldn't imagine it being 25 platinum. Perhaps I'm wrong. I know that wands, when they were able to be sold, made one very rich. I'm all for drastically lowering the cost of both and allowing them to be sold again.

The economic state of this MUD is something that has long been a burden. You sell a single suit of armor and everyone else is SoL until next reboot. I really understand why these economies are in place, but if you think about how hard it is to make coin doing anything other than selling stuff (which, some things are so expensive you can't even sell them!). Sure, you could grind - which is tedious, boring, trite, and frowned upon by the staff, but some people simply don't have that sort of time.

What ever happened to the 'quick buck?'

[Kregor]

A counterpoint... In the older days when brew/scribe was trainable via mobile, there was another factor that tipped the balance for soloing characters, that was the duration and affect of spells like Bulls Strength, Trollish Vigor, etc.

Before the spell system revisions, these spells added as much as 7 point to the stat, and did so for several game hours. The bonus now is a flat 4 point, and the duration is measured in game minutes, so the duration is short. A solo player used to be able to tank up on all those, plus mnemonic enhancer potions to gain their skill levels at phenomenal rates. None of that can be done now, so the balance has shifted back to the center, in my opinion, as far as how much soloing potions can allow. Potions are now handy for a little bit of oomph, and that's about it, unless you're carrying a bag of 73948475 of them on your mount... and of course, with the weight limitation on mounts now, you likely can't carry that many anyway.

[Dalanna]

As for the economic impact, could potions be made so that NPC merchants aren't interested in them, unless a PC shop is actually trying to buy them? There are many times I've tried to sell something and been told the shopkeeper was not interested until I found a specialty shop. I would think potions should be similar and most shops would not want them.

[Nysan]

I always regretted that I never gained scribe or brew on Nysan when it was avaliable via NPCs. The interaction caused by product selling/trading of my dwarf's trade goods always proved entertaining and often lead to long relations with regular customers, now and then leading to group adventures and other RP ventures. Plus, I enjoy avenues of experience and income that didn't involve endless killing of goblins and such. Would love to add that option for extended relations and RP to my main character...

Are there any plans for email applications for these trades or other means to attain them besides the, as Dalvyn stated 'over the top', PC teaching in the near future? Been tracking these trades on the forums since I came back and learned their NPC trainers were taken out with great interest.

[Tavik]

*glances around innocently* There are still a few of us around that know these skills, so finding people with the skills, though difficult, is still possible. The real problem lies in that I don't think any of those characters have GM'd the skills and can therefore not teach anyone. I don't want to derail this thread but I think all this would be easily solved if the new, proposed teach system were implemented. When that will happen (if ever) I don't know, but it has been discussed and it would solve the teaching problem.

As for the unbalancing issues, potions and scrolls are now three times as expensive to make, so they are less common. Also, the market for these things seems to have diminished. No one except wizards buy scrolls, and that's only to learn a spell they can't otherwise. And very few people buy potions because they are too expensive. I'll note that these observations are all PC to PC sales, not Mob to PC sales.

I guess what I'm getting at is that these skills are being underutilized at this point and the pendulum seems to have swung in the opposite direction. Again, I'll plug in my dire want for a new/better/shinier teach system and claim it as the solution to all these problems.

[Nysan]

Oh no, I realize there are folks with the brew/scribe. But odds finding one that has either trade GM'ed, logs in at a time I can find them, and will actually work with Nysan towards that end is dramatically slim. Expenses between PC-PC trades are the fault of the players really. I cannot recall the last time someone tried to argue that my dwarf over-priced any goods. Personally motivated by the possible RP ventures trades open up for characters more than any coin boast. No harm in showing interest in their return in some capacity.

Edit: I remember when they first entered the game and the big gold rush it created. I agree the product flood and solo game effects could be repeated if poorly implemented.
Flagging player crafted goods (if possible) or maybe just pots and scrolls, as non-sellable to NPC merchants would go a long ways towards the economy concern.
Solo-game...any way to put level flags them? Similar to how certain weapons/armor cannot be worn unless you are X level? Attaching level restrictions to spells of certain levels would go a long ways to prevent that solo rush. Also, possibly a potion limit perhaps? Can only have X number of potion based effects active at one time?

[Hviti]

And very few people buy potions because they are too expensive. I'll note that these observations are all PC to PC sales, not Mob to PC sales.

Also, I believe that there was at one point a debate over what a "fair" price for potions would be. This emerged from the fact that with all wizards having access to brew, some would sell potions for a few gold or less. This was discouraged because it made it too easy for non casting classes to load up on 50+ potions and go solo areas. However, at the encouraged prices, people won't always buy potions, so they aren't really an effective source of income, either. Also, some of the most purchased potions (especially word of recall) are no longer brewable.

I would suggest that potions be sellable to mobs again, but at lower prices. There were only two or three merchants in Waterdeep that used to buy potions, so if they only fetched 5-10 platinum or so, I think it wouldn't crash the economy as it formerly did.

[Dalvyn]

I would suggest that potions be sellable to mobs again, but at lower prices. There were only two or three merchants in Waterdeep that used to buy potions, so if they only fetched 5-10 platinum or so, I think it wouldn't crash the economy as it formerly did.

I see two problems with that. The second problem actually follows (more or less) from the first.

First problem: "effort vs gain" ratio. Consider what it takes to craft a set of, say, silver plate armour. You need to mine silver, then to smelt it, then finally to craft the suit of armour itself. Then you can sell it for some platinum. Compare that to the time it takes to brew two/three spells in a bottle. That would set up "brew" as a very inexpensive way to generate money.

Second problem: "since it's so easy to do, I'll do it 50 times". Since it does not take much time to brew a potion, you could then decide to spend say 10 minutes to brew 10 potions then sell them all and empty the economy of the whole area. That would mean that other people wouldn't be able to sell anything (including loot) in that area.

As for making potions useful (i.e., inciting people to buy them), it's a very hard balance to achieve because you kind of have to make it so that people can survive combat without the potion. Also, who needs potions to protect themselves/make them tougher/cure them when all they need to do is sit down to magically regenerate hit points?

[Glim]

Just curious, but if those of us who do have brew or scribe, if we were to GM them, would we be allowed to teach them as long as it included substantial RP beforehand(and by substantial, I don't mean an hour, I mean maybe an hour a day for a month or something like that)?

Don't know why I am writing this, but for the character I have that brews, I have always used a simple standard for pricing potions. It's basically this: add the spell levels together in platinum and add the component cost per spell times three (because it takes three castings for each spell), usually rounded up to the next platinum or so.

So basically, a potion with 3 3rd level spells and each spell costs 1 plat in components would cost 18 plat. Of course, spells that don't have component costs are cheaper.

[Adabelle]

At the moment I am too lazy to look it up but isn't scroll and potion creation supposed to cost XP in D&D?

If they cost XP then you have to go out and earn more XP, simular to how a smith must go out and get ore.

[Glim]

Pretty much any item creation in D20 3.5 Edition rules require xp I believe. Not just potions and scrolls.

[Larethiel]

I think only the items that require magic/spells do cost xp, normal and masterwork items like armour/weapons etc. just require a successful craft-check and the materials needed.

[Dalvyn]

Nothing currently prevents GMs in brew/scribe from teaching their trades. That is, actually, I think, the best way to solve this situation (though, once again, I would prefer a system where you can teach BEFORE you are GM, and more than what you currently do). Also, (I'm not 100% sure, but I think so), the current teach system makes BOTH the teacher and the student lose experience (don't ask me why). So, in a few word, the current teach system really sucks and I, for one, am very eager to see it replaced with a better system that incites people to interact in novel ways (e.g., as masters/apprentices).

Yes, brewing/scribing/making magical objects cost experience in D&D, Adabelle. That's actually a possible option, though it's hardly fair in my opinion.

[Glim]

Heh, my brewer has plenty of xp to use up so I wouldn't mind using some of it to teach people.

Until a new system is put in, now just comes the daunting goal of GM in brew.

Just responding to something that caught my eye:

Since it does not take much time to brew a potion, you could then decide to spend say 10 minutes to brew 10 potions then sell them all and empty the economy of the whole area. That would mean that other people wouldn't be able to sell anything (including loot) in that area.

In a perfect world, yes. But currently, since most brewers have low skill levels, they are going to fail alot of the time.

Just to put things in a bit of perspective-

10 potions with 3 spells each with (and this is generous) about a 50% success rate.

That means it takes 45 tries to make those 10 potions. With brewing also having around a 30 second (rough estimate) lag, this means it could take about 20 minutes to make 10 potions.

Now, because the failure rate is usually much more than that when starting from inept and the lag could be more, it could take 30-45 minutes to make those 10 potions. And they would also need to stop and meditate somewhere in there to regain spells because no one has 135 slots.

Not disagreeing with you, but just trying to clarify your times a bit.

[Hviti]

First problem: "effort vs gain" ratio. Consider what it takes to craft a set of, say, silver plate armour. You need to mine silver, then to smelt it, then finally to craft the suit of armour itself. Then you can sell it for some platinum. Compare that to the time it takes to brew two/three spells in a bottle. That would set up "brew" as a very inexpensive way to generate money.

I would suggest that potions be sellable to mobs again, but at lower prices.

If a suit of armor takes more time to produce than a potion, then sure, it can have a higher price. That doesn't mean that both can't be sold though. As it is, people can sell suits of armor but not potions.

Second problem: "since it's so easy to do, I'll do it 50 times". Since it does not take much time to brew a potion, you could then decide to spend say 10 minutes to brew 10 potions then sell them all and empty the economy of the whole area. That would mean that other people wouldn't be able to sell anything (including loot) in that area.

There were only two or three merchants in Waterdeep that used to buy potions, so if they only fetched 5-10 platinum or so, I think it wouldn't crash the economy as it formerly did.

To sell a potion:
Two or three merchants in all of Waterdeep used to buy potions. Let's say those buy potions at a lower than the former starting price of between 5 and 10 platinum (for ease of calculation, let's say 8 plat). They buy the 1st potion at 8, the next at 1/2 that, the next at 1/2...
2 or 3 merchants times (8+4+2+1+.5).

If you have two merchants buying potions, that's 31 platinum if you sell five potions each to two merchants. Three gives a max of 46.5 platinum for fifteen potions sold to 3 merchants.

I don't know what the exact value of the WD economy is, but I assume it's over 46.5 platinum.

With such a revision, opening up only the two or three merchants which used to buy potions and having them buy them at lower prices, bankrupting an area would be virtually impossible. This is especially true because all potions are viewed as the same by shopkeepers, so the price of each successive one sold is halved, quickly dwindling to a negligible amount (this is not true for weapons, more on this later).

You could make 51 potions, but divided between 3 merchants offering to buy them, by the time you sold the 17th potion to each you'd be getting (1/2)^17 = 1/131072 of the original selling price.


To sell armor/weapons:
There are at least 10-15 wandering merchants, plus at least 7-10 shopkeepers in Waterdeep who will buy player made armor and weapons.

Sell a tin greatsword that no one will ever buy and you'll get more than 8 plat (10-15 at least). Assuming about 20 merchants in Waterdeep that will deal in weapons, if you can sell a greatsword to each of those for 10 plat, that's 200 platinum, over four times the 46.5 from repriced potions and probably enough to make a significant dent in the economy. That's not even selling any repeats (which you had to do to get the 46.5 in potions because so few merchants buy them). If you sell repeat greatswords at half price, that's another 100 platinum.

But wait, you don't have to sell repeat greatswords. You can make different kinds of weapons/armor which sell for the "max" price. Different armor and weapon types count as different items in a shopkeeper's eyes, so you can make 10 greatswords, 10 longswords, 10 broadswords, and 10 shortswords and sell one of each kind to a merchant and get full price on every single one. If you sell 4 potions to the same merchant, you'll get 1/2 the price of the last each time because potions aren't differentiated by which spells they contain.

Basically, you can make a lot more money and crash the economy a lot quicker by selling a bunch of lead katanas that no one will every buy to the many, many more merchants that are willing to trade in weapons and armor. Potions have a built in limit because very few shopkeepers accept them; if the price paid for them is lowered (to around 8 platinum or so), then they would have much less potential than armor/weaponsmithing to crash the economy.

Besides, if player made potions can't be sold to very few merchants, why should player made armor and weapons be able to be sold to dozens of merchants? Why do spellcasting classes get a trade that they can't use to generate revenue but warrior classes get one that they can (and have) used to bankrupt the global economy?

As for making potions useful (i.e., inciting people to buy them), it's a very hard balance to achieve because you kind of have to make it so that people can survive combat without the potion. Also, who needs potions to protect themselves/make them tougher/cure them when all they need to do is sit down to magically regenerate hit points?

For this, I would propose that some spells above the 3rd level be brewable. I find the the 3rd level restriction somewhat arbitrary; there are plenty of spells in levels 1-3 that one would never put in a potion and plent y above it that one might want to. Now, not every spell above 3rd level should be brewable (otherwise, why have wizards/priests at all when you can get anything they can cast in a bottle), but imo letting some spells which were formerly heavily demanded in potions (e.g. word of recall) be brewed would give brewers more opportunities to make PC-PC sales.

[Selveem]

Just a quick FYI Hviti, not only warriors can learn to make weapons. I know a wizard or two who can make weapons. And even more priests.