The place for Evils in FK

[Aegir]

One of the topics that caught me most while going through some old threads was in the "Immortal Conduct" thread, regarding the general feeling that evils place in the world is to ultimately lose. This is an opinion built off reading fantasy, and playing in tabletop campaigns, and in those venues, its a perfectly acceptable mindset, but in an MMO its not.

The game itself should be neutral, and allow for whatever side can muster the strength to win, to win. In the case of FK, the good-dominated pbase will obviously ensure that good wins the majority of the time, and thats the only thing that should determine the side that wins, the leanings of the pbase. The current practice of making it so prohibitively difficult to even make an evil character serves to discourage all evil play, not simply the "bad" evil play that has been used as the reason for the excessive kismet cost on evil PCs.

While I do agree that a certain standard should be set on evil players, and having a kismet cost on evil characters is one way to do it... the cost is far too high. Evil RP should not be regulated in such a way that it scares off everyone, good and bad alike, but should be allowed to be self-regulated (by active evil PCs), as well as the IMMs.

Evil, at its core, is very animalistic: survival of the fittest, kill or be killed, look out for number one. Thus, I feel that instead of having an excessive kismet cost, that established evil PCs should have the job of teaching newer evil PCs how they're expected to act. This can occur OOC (partially from PCs, or even from a new quest in the newbie temples of evil cities), but if they step over the line, many times the IC reaction is going to be more violent then the rest of the MUD would be comfortable with. This should be encouraged, as it sets the proper tone, and allows evils to self-regulate in an IC manner. Anyone who is simply there to PK will soon be chased off by bigger, stronger PCs, and anyone truly interested in learning will do so.

Perhaps the best way to do this is to have a core of active evils as members of the newbie and player council, players who grasp the evil side of the MUD and can teach it effectively. I'm not necessarily saying that most players can't, but given many of the opinions I've seen, there is a general trend towards people feeling evils have their place, and that is to lose so that goods don't feel bad about themselves. This is not a mindset that encourages conflict, it encourages them to abandon the evil side (who wants to play a character that is expected to lose?), or abandon the MUD all together.

So yes, I am advocating a slightly different set of rules for the evil side of the MUD. Remove (or at least drastically lessen) the costs on being evil, and allow evil PCs to police the young'uns. Perhaps even decide how these rules will differ from the MUD in general, and hold an event to teach these policies to established evil PCs, so that those of us with an interest in teaching younger PCs can do so effectively.

This can be further strengthened by giving one or two players who have displayed an ability to correctly play evil PCs a deity character, so they can be tasked with overseeing these things. Some active evil deities would help immensely to attract new players to the evil side, and would help detract from the perception that anything east of Berdusk is just, "that place where the deviants hand out."

[Mouat]

I can think of many instances where evil thrives and wins over goodies in the game. I am not sure where you basis is for claiming that the mud is anti-evil and that evil must lose to goodies to survive.

I myself, have not played an evil character, so I can't comment on a lot of what you said, but as I mentioned above, I have seen lots of times where evil thrives over good, especially recently I can think of a few times that has happened in particular when an evil god unleashed his horde to slay good.

[Sairaven]

As someone that has enjoyed playing villains in a variety of settings (mud, tabletop, and mmo), I can say that the life of an evil character is very difficult.

It takes a great deal more planning and preparation and subterfuge than being a good or neutral character. It takes a much thicker skin, as you have to be ready to accept that your plans may (and probably will) fail time and again as the good-aligned folks start to figure out what's going on.

Conversely, as being a hero requires a villain, being a villain does not require having heroes around. In fact, being a villain would be easier were it not for those pesky kids and their dog. Err, you get the point.

A villain often has to have several pokers in the fire, in the event that one of their plans is foiled (*insert Snidely Whiplash here*).

Now, I realize your post is not about villains but about evil characters. The problem I have seen, and not here (as I've not looked too deeply here), is that evil tends to be self-serving. There are few evil characters that are willing to mentor, that are willing to help up and coming evils develop.

Heck, in the Overlord's Guidebook it says something about not taking wards and/or apprentices, because one of two things could happen: They will either betray you to the hero or betray you and replace you. Either way, you end up with a figurative (and sometimes literal) knife in your back. Not much incentive to mentor someone.

A single evil character can be a force to be reckoned with, provided it is done properly. In a previous mud that I played, I had a very, very powerful thief character. He was the bogey man that both children and adults feared, and that was done through selective violence, appropriate revelation of information, and designing plans that were destined to fail but at the same time prove a point.

It took a small army to finally take me down, and even then they didn't account for paranoid protections (cloning anyone?).

It should be hard to be evil. By keeping things hard, both IC and OOC, it assures that only the smart evils will survive to make a name for themselves and, therefor, provide the best RP.

I plan to make an evil character here (he's already in his newbie stages), to see how things can be done locally. I also plan to see if it's possible to reach villain status, and that is something I figure will take quite some time.

[Aegir]

I can think of many instances where evil thrives and wins over goodies in the game. I am not sure where you basis is for claiming that the mud is anti-evil and that evil must lose to goodies to survive.

I didn't say those are my feelings, I said just the opposite. What I said was that there seems to be a not entirely uncommon belief that evils place in the world is to ultimately lose.

As for where the MUD is anti-evil, its not really something thats seen in the MUD world, except for the active pbase of goods and evils. The kismet costs for creating an evil character is where my opinion is mostly based, and I dislike kismet being used as a deterrent against "bad evil RP". Evils are more than capable of policing themselves, all thats needed is an understanding that there will be more PvP incidents. I myself used to do this all the time; I very rarely killed anyone in Zhentil Keep (and the times I did were almost always cases where they'd done something that warranted an execution), but I would often set myself to spar or nofight, and drop a harm on someone if they were getting out of line.

[Vibius]

As far I know there is no kismet cost for playing an evil character, but a kismet requeriment, which is the same amount that for playing rogues, and certainly we see our share of "thieves" and bards around.

The life of a evil character is hard because those who do good will really need to have good reason to help an evil one, and not all the evil characters hold sympathies for all the evils, making their gameplay harder and thereof having the necessity of a kismet requirement, so once you know how to play you can go "the hard mode" if you wish.

[Nysan]

This thread reminds me of why I enjoyed the Ravenloft gaming setting so much...

[Kregor]

Perhaps the best way to do this is to have a core of active evils as members of the newbie and player council, players who grasp the evil side of the MUD and can teach it effectively. I'm not necessarily saying that most players can't, but given many of the opinions I've seen, there is a general trend towards people feeling evils have their place, and that is to lose so that goods don't feel bad about themselves. This is not a mindset that encourages conflict, it encourages them to abandon the evil side (who wants to play a character that is expected to lose?), or abandon the MUD all together.

I came up with four members of the Player Council that play evils, regularly and well, without even thinking. So I don't think we're short of PC staff to help encourage and be an example for evil roleplay.

As far as the kismet requirement, before it was instated, there was a rash of antisocial evil behaviour coming from newer players, random pkill, psteal and other actions that made the game less fun for more people than it provided more fun to (pretty much, no fun for anyone but the lone ranger evil player). Since the kismet requirement was put in, both for evils AND for rogues, I see it considerably less, with the few remaining being the examples of the weakness in the system, that you can play a long time, but still equate being evil to being an arse. But that is like the few examples I've seen of poorly played high kismet races as well, you'll always find a few. If comparison to ratio of the behaviour and RP of lower-cost races, as opposed to the higher cost, 100-200 kismet races is an indicator, then I'm inclined to think that the 100-200 mark for evil and rogues (or evil rogues) is about the right level. Too much more would be diminishing returns, and less would exponentially increase the instances of trouble again.

I firmly believe that the end of regulation of behaviour on the mud rests in the hands of the admin staff. Self-policing doesn't really work even in things like the U.S. Food and Drug Administration, or the "de-regulation" of utility companies, or in the workplace... and even less-so in a multi player game where anyone can join and play by clicking a link and typing two lines. Self-policing leads to inconsistent regulation, rulings and punishment, I am inclined to keeping the ultimate governance on RP and behaviour of players in the hands of the Player Council and the Admin staff. And yeah, I think in the end, what the DM's consider evil RP to be proper and acceptable falls under the blanket of "house rules".

[Mariela]

The game itself should be neutral, and allow for whatever side can muster the strength to win, to win.

To be honest, in most cases the deck is going to be stacked in evil's favor. There may not be many evils in FK but PLEANTY of them have players who know what they are doing. They know where to train their skills, they know where to get their prayers and spells, and they have friends that back them up. Not pointing figures, but in terms of raw strength, evil currently will win a straight up fight in FK. Because they are STRONG. They are just not many. And thus, it's always the same six or seven evils that are always in the mix, stirring the bucket.

While I do agree that a certain standard should be set on evil players, and having a kismet cost on evil characters is one way to do it... the cost is far too high. Evil RP should not be regulated in such a way that it scares off everyone, good and bad alike, but should be allowed to be self-regulated (by active evil PCs), as well as the IMMs.

Natch. The true price of evil is selling your soul, your family and your kitten! To be honest, I would much rather have evil have an even HIGHER restricted kismet cost. Being evil opens the door for all sorts of things dark. Those sort of themes should be explored by professionals. People who have a knowledge of the world of the Forgotten Realms, and have proven that they can uphold without flinching convictions. If you think good have to stick by their morals, evils have a much higher cost at betraying their codes. It generally ends in death if not worse!

Evil, at its core, is very animalistic: survival of the fittest, kill or be killed, look out for number one

Which generally means you are alone for long periods of time. You need to have a player who understands what to do with one's self when one is not working at scheme with others to destroy all things good in the universe. Or by converse, what does a Cyric do when he's dipped into a mixed party of goods and evils. The very nature of evil SHOULD be alien to most players. It takes people who are mature, inventive and have a firm base knowledge of the game to pull it off well.

Perhaps the best way to do this is to have a core of active evils as members of the newbie and player council, players who grasp the evil side of the MUD and can teach it effectively

Why does it always have to be about more administration? If you are evil, and think you need peeps...... GO OUT AND FIND THEM. Train them. Show them through RP how GOOD it is to be EVIL. Find that little 10th level thief and train him in the ropes of his craft. Why do we need more administration and more chorse for the IM's and Players Council when they have enough on their plate?

There are evil organizations out there IC! Why arent' those groups recruiting, training... rewarding, damning one another into a good solid RP that is less about a rampant run through Waterdeep to kill everyone.. and more about the way Evil works without a goal in mind? Why isn't there more brainwashing going on?

The best way to teach anyone anything is by example. You know the evil that has truly scared the hell out of me? Danten. Why? Because he breaths evil. And then he opens his mouth and can speak as eloquently as any good priest in the game. He is dangerously subversive and speaks with such an authority about who he is... it's so wicked awesome. I'd follow that character around with a autograph book if I could. Even when he's out doing very basic things, exploring a quest, ect, he never loses is composure of that powerful Malarite priest. He IS the force of Malar on the world.

Heaven help us all if Danten ever decided to take an apprentice. When it happens, I'm totally signing up for popcorn in the first row.

But the point is.. there is DAMN good evil RP out there. Some of the most infamous evil people are there because of good RP scenes, and less that they can code their way out of danger. (Don't get me wrong. They can and have... but.... people like Dauynelle, Yzelle, Zarafae, Moloch... and so forth are also other really good examples... )I have witnessed many RP situations through various characters of mine.. that I really do think the base is there. It just needs to be more concentrated on an actual agenda.. and the acceptance that being evil means sometimes.. you are up the creek without a paddle and alone.



Let me wrap up this with a brief statement.... well as brief as I am able to be.

If evil is not being evil, isn't it the responsibility and the freedom that evil has to clamp down on itself? There is no redemption in evil. There is only evil. And what is stopping evil characters from forming together new guilds, or businesses, or even organizations committed to the arts of "Freedom" and "Truth"..... and so what if the truth is that they eat kittens?

[Nysan]

Lies! We are few, weak, and need hugs. And we love kittens, good with frost wine.

[Kirkus]

I didn't sell my kitten, just my soul. I lost the kitten in the high stakes gambling. Take note, thats a obscure Buffy the Vampire Slayer reference....

In any note, I feel that playing an evil character is tough, and it should be. But I also feel that it is highly rewarding. Seeing as I myself am not very evil it is a stretch. The problem I see for our world is that good triumphs more often than not. How do we solve this? My solution would be more long term rp that is structured so that evil has its time to shine, sure good may win in the end but the evils need to enjoy as well. I call for more activity on the part of the zhents.... go out and bring home the w.

[Tavik]

I'm not really for changing things. I think they are great where they are at. The argument was made that the game needs to have a general neutral feeling. I disagree. The game should have a general feeling of whatever the majority feels. Being as goods are more prevalent (for kismet reasons or otherwise), that feeling is going to tend to reflect that of a "Good should win most of the time". The reason for this? That's just how things naturally work. If you want to use the real world as an example, the VAST majority would be considered good with a tiny minority of evil being oppressed by the goods. Everyone has to potential to be equally powerful, but it's the goods that rule (general statement here. Don't take this as an excuse to derail the thread and argue politics). Does that mean evil doesn't have it's triumphs? Of course not. Our history is FULL of bad people doing bad things. But generally, in the end, good wins. That very same model is reflected pretty accurately in FK the way things are now. Evils do evil things, but tend to lose more often than not simply because the general population doesn't stand for it. Please note that I am NOT, by any means discouraging evil RP. We NEED it. Without it, the game just becomes a dull hack-n-slash, with the only real goal being bragging rights. Without evil the entire RP aspect essentially dies.

Where the limitations should be placed here are on the IMMs. THEY are the ones who should be maintaining that neutral attitude about things. Why? Because they have the power to sway things in whatever direction they want. Frankly, I think they do a pretty good job of remaining neutral, so my point is more made to other players.

Another point I had is that evils tend to be tyrannical. That's just their nature. If you encourage evil RP, then expect tyranny. With tyranny comes extreme limits of freedom. With those limits to freedom, you start taking away the ability of players to RP their characters who they want and force them to conform to the RP of the evils. Would that be the evil player's fault? No. Of course not. They are RPing their character how they should be by forcing their will on everyone else. But is that fair to everyone else? Nope.

Now, I need to point out that I'm not talking about an extreme dominance of good over evil here. As I stated earlier, we need that evil RP, and we should encourage it to continue.

In conclusion, I realize I got a little off topic here, but basically my argument is that the current limits and rules seem to be producing a very well balanced model and that by removing some of those limits you risk tilting the scale.

P.S. I didn't mean to bash all you evils. You do a great job and I, for one, appreciate your willingness to take on that role and do so responsibly. Keep up the great RP!

[Nysan]

End of the day, FK is based on FR. In FR, heroes prevail... generally after a bit of suffering and mishaps, but prevail nonetheless. The only popular world setting of D&D that took the high road of heavy evil rule has been Ravenloft and that place is a whole different topic. Cannot read the FR sources and go in expecting an easy time being evil in FK, we knew what was there when we signed the character's name. Doesn't mean evil isn't fun to be in FK. We do quite well for ourselves...

[Aegir]

End of the day, FK is based on FR. In FR, heroes prevail...

There is a critical flaw in this argument: in FR, players are virtually always good, thus evils are there to challenge, not defeat; its the very nature of a traditional RPG.

So what happens if the game you run consists of an evil group? Create good NPCs that can slaughter them, just because evil is suppose to lose? Tabletop gaming revolves around the PCs, the world is there to engage and challenge them, regardless of what alignment they are.

In an MMO (be it FK or any other) its not that simple, because you have in essence multiple groups, both good, evil, and various shades of grey, all vying for their own place in the world. Should a game where PCs make up all sides, good an evil alike, really be slanted against those evil PCs?

Yes, I agree that right now the game should be good slanted, but not for the reasons you suggest. The pbase should determine that, nothing else. And no, I don't mean build towards the pbase, I mean build towards neutrality, and let the players decide directly, through their actions.

When an event is held, it shouldn't have a pre-determined result. If an event consisting of Orcs attacking Darromar is run, and the active pbase has more orcs and evils than goods and ultimately wipes the city clean, is it really right to have Darromar come through unscathed, just because "good should win"?

Some people have said that the game is neutral, and while I'd agree its more neutral than it was, its far from neutral. How many areas are barred from goods accessing them? Conversely, how many are bared from evils? I can count two off the top of my head, and I can only imagine how many I'm missing that were added since the last time I took count.

There is a city currently in-game that bars evils from even entering, regardless of if they're in disguise, conceal their symbol... whatever, they're simply barred by code, no entrance. This city also has at least one temple to a prominent evil God in it, and virtually none of its members can get to it, because evil PCs can't get in. In fact, the city was altered after its addition to the game to make it even more impossible to access. Why? The fact that an evil temple exists there suggests that it can be accessed by evils, but there is code in place that blocks them, period. There is nothing in FR canon that suggests this city is somehow impenetrable by people of an evil alignment.

I acknowledge that evil PCs are a minority, but they are not non-existent. People who enjoy playing that side of the alignment scale have just as much right to enjoy a game as anyone else, and while I grasp that certain things are going to be restricted or inaccessible (there is plenty in the game that is restricted because of religion, race, even gender in a few places), but theres no reason to add to that list for no reason.

[Dalvyn]

Ok, you said the word "areas", so you'll now have to face me as well. *cackles*

What area is restricted to non-evil and has a major evil temple in it?

I guess that one of the areas you cite is Silverymoon. It's not open to evil for a very good reason: because of its mythal. It's FR lore, it's not "oh, let's prevent evil to get in just for fun". That also explains that you can't just disguise yourself to get in. Mythals can't be cheated that easily.

Re: evil more broadly. This is FK, this is not WoW. As long as I have even a tiny word to say, FK won't degenerate into a good vs evil, alliance vs orcs free-for-all pkill feast. This is a roleplay mud. The philosophy here is not to pitch evil vs good (or any other groups) and see who is the most powerful and let them "win". The philosophy is more oriented towards more subtle evil, evil that generates roleplay. Think of a theft followed by a ransom, or a kidnapping followed by ransom. Think of spreading lies, of sowing mistrust and using deception to set people against others.

And that is exactly why there is this 200 kismet cost/requirement on evil characters. Because that is the kind of evil we expect. We do not want people who say "Oh, look, I'm evil. I'm going to raze down this village for no reason. I'm soooo evil!" We do not want people who rob other PCs just because they have the "steal" skill then go to sell their loot and do not intend to turn the theft into a roleplay later. We do not want people who, under the "I am evil" pretense spite others OOCly through their actions.

In that, yes, evil roleplay is limited on FK. Is it a bad think? I would think it's on the contrary, a good thing. Is that harder to be evil? Of course, it is... because of those higher standards, being evil is not simply getting a powerful character and bullying others into submission. And that's why there is this kismet requirement/cost: to try and make sure that those who get an evil character knows that we expect more of them than just bullies with a black aura.

[Aegir]

I guess that one of the areas you cite is Silverymoon. It's not open to evil for a very good reason: because of its mythal. It's FR lore, it's not "oh, let's prevent evil to get in just for fun". That also explains that you can't just disguise yourself to get in. Mythals can't be cheated that easily.

Silverymoon's wards and mythal only bar evils from entering one place: the palace (and even that is only ever listed as saying "certain evil races"). they detect evil and block the use of many forms of magic, but don't outright bar entrance.

While I imagine any evil figure entering the city would be watched closely, they would not be barred from most of the city aside from a few select areas (the palace being one), and because they'd never be issued the item needed to cast normally, any attempt against the city would no doubt be met with a very painful response.

So yes, the mythal has an effect, but nowhere even close to the level it currently exists at in FK.

[Dapher]

You say it is slanted towards goodly, and that good wins almost all the time. I would have to disagree. I wont give any IC tuff away, but as Mouat posted earlier, Malar unleashed his wrath upon a group of goodlies, and even after the group getting killed once, one character was killed AGAIN, even after that, by the evils. So, yes the IMMs help both sides, more often then not, in my RPs I have been apart of, the IMMs have been quite nuetral, and fair. I have seen a IMM slauther a faith manager that was helping a goodly group against an evil group. Now, this is just one instance, I could mention more, but I am saying the IMMs keep it very nuetral from my sights.

As for Pkill nature of evils, and so forth. I have had my share of evils, goodly, and nuetrals. I admit, it is HARD to get an evil going, it is hard to rp, and gather proper equipment and so forth. But I think the point is not Pkill, but rp. I have NEVER done a Pkill, I have sparred, and stunned, but never a kill. It is very possible to RP evil, and not kill. I have seen very well done rps where a group of orcs captured several goodies, and held them for a randsom, this got a very large group together involved in an rp. That is the sort of thing I like to see.

I do not mean to bash anyone, or put anyone down. I am saying the game is well balanced, and the evils made do very well, and make RPs happen, and it is something I can enjoy.

[Nysan]

Said FK is based on FR, where good prevails and thats how the mud is overall driven, player and imm. This is true and always will be because uncontrolled evil behavior breeds little RP and more abuse/harassment; ie random Pkills, single high level evils clearing a village for no real reason besides "i'm evil", and almost constant stealing.

We will always have evil restraints not shown in FR or even in some other muds by the sheer fact that we are driven by RP, not raking in kills... not stealing just for kicks... not acting out of character for gains or cheating. Heck, thats the reasons for many of the restraints set up around the areas. Many are not in FR lore, but placed there to either help maintain the RP feel or prevent repeated abuse of areas; Silvermoon and MH are fine examples of this.

I am a rather pleased with many of the pro-evil changes we hve had over the years myself. Ask any old evil that remembers the "no evils in waterdeep" policy. Things have gotten better.

As long as FK is driven for RP, restraints are needed for evil (and rare races) because without some watching dwarves are just short humans with drinking problems and people would be robbed or killed any time they stepped out of a guard patrolled area (somethimes inside those areas), or random monsters start popping up around cities when a bored priest wants entertainment... *cough*

[Mariela]

What I don't understand is this...

If you don't like something about FK, why aren't you doing something about it? If you don't think that the evils are getting the mojo they should.. I dunno, apply for an RP and rope people into it?

So the mithral doesn't let evil characters into Silverymoon... that doesn't prevent the neutral or the innocent from carrying out your dirty work for you. You know, tell Suzie Sunite to go get you the totem from the Temple of Ilmater and leave it at that. Bribe someone.

I have seen more evil people snow good people into the silliest things like.... giving them a kiss or affection. Why can't an evil soul turn their attention more to the matters at hand? You can't get into Silverymoon, fine. Get someone else to do it for you. Even Dracula had his Renfield.

[Hviti]

If you don't like something about FK, why aren't you doing something about it? If you don't think that the evils are getting the mojo they should.. I dunno, apply for an RP and rope people into it?

So the mithral doesn't let evil characters into Silverymoon... that doesn't prevent the neutral or the innocent from carrying out your dirty work for you. You know, tell Suzie Sunite to go get you the totem from the Temple of Ilmater and leave it at that. Bribe someone.

I have seen more evil people snow good people into the silliest things like.... giving them a kiss or affection. Why can't an evil soul turn their attention more to the matters at hand? You can't get into Silverymoon, fine. Get someone else to do it for you. Even Dracula had his Renfield.

If evils are codewise blocked from entering Silverymoon (or another area), finding steps to get around this (e.g. making a TN character but having them act evil, sending in good characters who were "tricked") could be considered code abuse, so I don't know if that's a viable option.

Having people lead you into areas where you normally can't be or get items from places you can't enter is always going to be a touchy business, regardless of whether there was some sort of IC permission or IC plotting involved. That doesn't mean the code can't be changed if it doesn't perfectly fit the campaign setting facts (with the caveat that house rules trump any FR material), but IC justifications shouldn't be used to circumvent code placed there for an IC reason.

[Mariela]

How is it to be code abuse to send someone to get you something?

I am not talking about sending your buddy in who's got a character. I'm saying RP the involvement of someone good breaking the rules as they stand from an IC perspective. Trick that stupid paladin that has been trying to convert you to the light into thinking the only way you cna see the light is to get a blue belt from the merchants in Silverymoon. Or that book that you have to pay for in silvermoon. Give themt he coins. Tell them to go get it for you.

How is -that- code abuse? Especially when the POINT is to get the goody to do something for someone evil?

The restriction into Silverymoon from an IC perspctive isn't to keep everyone contained WITHIN the city. But to keep evil out. So if evil waits outside while his's stupid buddy is foolishing running around buying goods for an evil scheme later on.. what is the abuse?