Great cleave

[Kelemvor]

Let's not have to moderate this thread, please.

Return to the original question, do not second guess why the poster asked the question or what they wish to gain from it. Equally, do not label those who posted adversely to the questions as being an RP minimalist mob.

We are all here to enjoy the game in whatever manner of play suits us best.

[Raona]

Now, getting to the post at hand, I was explaining that how Great Cleave is not really any more useful than the actual base feat and was attempting to offer something to make it more useful. It's a fighting feat. It's for dealing damage.

Yes, I understand it may work in Howling Peaks - an area designed specifically for players around level 10 to be able to work with a group, not a high level player walking a low level through and mauling everything in sight. However, what my intention was to (after finding out it is not bugged and simply didn't work as I interpereted it to in the help file) suggest something to make the feat more useful instead of only cleaning out lowbie areas. Something that you spent two feat points on should at least have some use in playing your character responsibly.

If it's not acceptable and the feat is 'fine as it is' - alright. Either way, I have expressed suggestion and defended my view as I see it.

I think you've done a commendable job of presenting your suggestion, and the rationale for it, Selveem. Even if it did operate as you describe, though, great cleave would seem a pretty poor feat investment; unfortunately, also rather unrealistic, as I think HitAll was. This whole whirlwind attack thing...a bit hard for me to swallow, I guess. As you correctly observed, the odds of taking down two foes that are anything approaching a match for you, in a single round, seems slim to nil, unless someone else has already roughed them up. (Maybe if you had that mage with fireball with you, though, the foes that survived the blast might be hurt enough to make Great Cleave operate!)

I might suggest another possible patch on the feat, which I think would make it more powerful yet not unbalancing:
Great Cleave would instill some barbaric oomph to your cleave attacks - that is, when you killed a foe in melee, you would not only cleave, carrying over your attacks against another foe, but the rest of that attack round would operate under some sort of bonus: a to-hit bonus, a damage bonus, a damage multiplier; something like that. That seems to me realistic (a little fighter battle lust isn't beyond the pale), useful (it'll operate in each round you kill a foe, which likely won't be every round, but won't be once in a blue moon), and not unbalancing (that barbarian-like bonus seems a reasonable return on two feats and a great deal of strength, given it will only operate when you are fighting a group).

[Selveem]

That's a good idea. It would then be exactly what it is supposed to - an upgrade to cleave. While it may not follow the D&D rules, at least it would make the feat useful in 'real' situations.

[Vindur]

I think that Greater Cleave is useful for what is it aimed for and does it perfectly, killing WEAK enemies, making your attacks more lethal would be the domain of another feat.

[Hviti]

You have to be at the very least level 10-15 to have great cleave, since it takes 3 feats points. By that time, one isn't likely fighting rats any more - and rats are about the only enemy great cleave has bearing on in its current incarnation.

Is a single attack against other enemies in the room which occurs only on the deaths of enemies that unbalancing? Especially since it takes 3 feat points?

[Dalvyn]

Obviously, only one with access to the code could answer for sure, but what Great Cleave is supposed to do is to allow you to perform several Cleaves in the same round.

A "Cleave" means that, if your attack falls a foe, you can make a "sweeping" attack against the next foe immediately.

With the "cleave" feat, you can do it only once a round. For example, if you are fighting 3 goblins and have 2 attacks per round, and the attacks go as follows:
- first attack on goblin A, the goblin is killed.
- CLEAVE attack on goblin B. (= extra, free attack)
- second attack on goblin B.

With "Cleave" only, if your second attack kills goblin B, you do not get a second (in the round) cleave attack on goblin C. "Cleave" feat allows you to add only one cleave attack per round.

With "Great Cleave", you can cleave several times per round (actually, there is no limit on how many times you can cleave). So, with Great Cleave, the attacks could go as follows:
- first attack on goblin A, the goblin is killed.
- CLEAVE attack on goblin B. (= extra, free attack)
- second attack on goblin B, the goblin is killed.
- CLEAVE attack on goblin C.
- (and if C was killed and there was yet another target, you would have another cleave attack on the following monster).

So, no, Cleave/Great Cleave are not supposed to be useful only against rats. It can work against more powerful enemies too, especially when you have more attacks per round.

[Selveem]

Completely understandable, Dalvyn. I understood that after the post made by Hviti. However, the chance to one-shot something in a single round above level 10 is extremely rare.

There are some very few occasions where I can one-shot a bandit and get to cleave on a second. That utilizes cleave. However, for greater cleave to work, I need to have at least three in the room and to be able to kill at least 2 within 6 attacks.

Now, I understand it is not supposed to work every time. However, FK's policy is very restrictive regarding what places high level characters can stay in even when just training attacks. I have been ushered out of even a mid-level dungeon from training and gaining coin because I was 'too high level.' Even in Feebov's Mansion (which was the mid-level area I was ushered out of), it is impossible (and I mean 100% impossible) to kill those with a single blow. It is possible to kill them within a single round, I believe, but that utilizes only cleave.

My point was not that the feat does not work, my point is that it is nearly useless for most high level characters as they cannot venture often into those areas where the use of that feat _can_ be utilized.

Now, I understand I have mostly gotten feedback claiming that the 'feat is fine.' However, I have gotten more than twice that in feedback of people telling me 'you really are correct' or 'I am so glad you brought it up. It's bothered me a while too.'

It's a little disheartening that I am getting the support of only one of those people and not the other seven players. I will desist on this issue further as it has basically been suggested that the feat 'works as intended' and 'is fine.'

Thanks for bothering to comment.

[Japcil]

Selveem I can see where you are coming from but in reguards to the policy, you can be there if you are assisting someone that the area is appropriate for. So if you go there to not level but assist another player that makes this feat useful and handy.

[Tempus]

For the avoidance of doubt, cleave and great cleave currently work exactly as described by Dalvyn and Hviti.

[Selveem]

Thus depriving said low level character you are helping of their exp anyhow. Which is now much, much more difficult to obtain. This is why I try to avoid helping lower levels on my level 50 warrior in the type of places it is actually 'useful.'

*Edit: This was in response to the post above before Tempus.

[Balek]

I've taken this feat on one of my fighters and I've been disappointed with its limited usefulness in practice. The way I see it, there are very few situations in which you could use this feat. They appear to be:

1. You are high level and you are on your own fighting low level mobs. In the majority of cases this is probably something you shouldn't be doing because they are in low level areas and you've got no reason to be there. Occasionally when I'm in an area with a wide range of mob levels I will use this feat while on my way to harder mobs. This is a rare occurrence and saves me a moment or two at best.

2. You are high level and you are helping a lower level character in a low level area. The issue with this is that if they are not doing a quest and you kill all of the mobs (which you are sure to do if you join the fight), the low level character is gaining nothing. If they are doing a quest, killing all of the mobs for them is not a good thing to do. That would be rushing them through the quest and that would be very poor form.

In virtually any other situation this feat is useless. Low level characters against low level mobs do not have enough attacks or do enough damage to have a use for the feat. High level characters against high level mobs do not do enough damage to have a use for the feat. Balek can occasionally kill an ogre or something similar in about a round of combat, but could never kill two ogres in one round.

The way I see it, there is absolutely no reason to slavishly stick to published D&D rules. If we find that something isn't working for us, there's absolutely no reason we shouldn't change it. That's called a house rule. As far as I'm concerned, Great Cleave should not stick to D&D rules in this case because it's an expensive feat to take (You must first take two other feats) and is essentially useless even in the situations in which it works.

[Selveem]

*bump*

[Oghma]

Instead of just typing 'bump' please outline or explain you current concerns over this topic in the forums. Just because something has not been added to in several months does not mean it has been forgotten, rather it might be set aside for consideration or discussion on another forum by a specialty group or bridged into another discussion altogether. I'd suggest not just bumping but stating your intentions for reviving a topic and your current comments or concerns. Though it is not really a rule, it seems a waste of space to make a post in the forums with a single word like bump.

[Selveem]

The reason why topics are generally 'bumped' by people is not because they have not been added. I understand this is no portal for pushing what you want done.

It is bumped for discussion. There have been some things suggested thus far but no further discussion regarding it. There has been no response from any coders stating that any changes to this are even being considered beyond 'that is how it works in D&D.' I've been trying to think of some other ideas but have been falling short.

I've already outlined why I believe this is worthy of additional change so I feel I would be wasting my time re-typing it and wasting further space to go through all of those over again.

I would like to hear from others who have suggestions to make this feat more useful than it currently is. Those who have it (from the fairly large amount I have spoken to) have also agreed the feat as currently is does next to nothing especially for the high amount of feats required to even possess this feat (AKA: There is no other feat that requires you to have 2 other feats _and_ a certain amount of stat points dumped into strength).

In many ways, I like what Raona suggested about it giving a damage bonus to the swing that you use your cleave on.

[Oghma]

Well, now that you have explained your intentions for reopening the thread, it should allow for some poignant discussion.

I have no problem with seeing an increase in the strength of great cleave, however if it becomes unbalancing, I would rather see it removed from the mud as a whole or the prerequisites lowered for it to reflect its lack of power. That would not be fair to those that have already trained it, but it would keep future users from suffering for training.

[Taerom]

Speaking from the perspective of someone who has taken great cleave on a fighter, I can say that at high level, it feels like I wasted a feat point. I could have the same effect with just cleave. I'd be welcome to making any changes that would make this more of a viable thing at high level.

[Toronar]

I would be hard pressed to see a NON-munchkin game of D&D where a fighter would do as much damage in a round as a high level wizard with a well-used spell. In fact there are some inconsistencies in the FK code that would tend to allow a warrior in FK to cause MORE damage per hit than in D&D. I fail to see any merit in a complaint of "fighters don't do enough damage in the game," when they are, in fact, sword slingers, plain and simple, meatshields, living armour for the party they're with. They can take the damage more, and longer than any other class in the game. That's what they're there for.

It is an interesting point of view. The mages in the original D&D are mostly support classes, buffing warriors, or killing large quantity of weak monsters from the second row. They have about the same role in the new games, like NWN too.
Being meatshield does not seem to be a noble purpose for warrior, it is not the epitome of the roleplaying.
Also, i can't imagine better roleplaying, than the real world. Everybody trying to 'play' his role with his best ability: trying to be useful, succesful in his job, unless he is a junkie. If a warrior picks a useless skill or talent, instead of trying to learn the best possible attack technics from the famous weaponmasters of the world, then he is bad roleplayer (or junkie). This is my point of view.

[Leohand]

I have an opinion here. Hehe. From someone that has a fighter, but that generally plays other character, I do hope that any feat would have SOME use. Yes, I see how Great Cleave has a use, in theory, but not in most situations. I am all for Great Cleave having it's present effect, as well as a little extra oomph for each cleave.