Drow and the surface:

[Selveem]

Inspired by Duranamir's post (which served as a reminder):
http://www.gallwey.com/fk/board/viewtop ... 2&start=20


In the past, the Drow have not been allowed to attain the ability to come to the surface due to high potential exploitation and other reasons. One of those reasons was that players with no background in roleplay (new to the game) were able to create Drows and begin hacking away at things. I believe this is now no longer the case. I think those reasons should now be examined as a thing of the past.

There are a few key reasons I say this:

• High potential for exploitation.

I think this is subjective. A Half-Elf has far higher potential for exploitation than any Drow could ever have. Realistically, any race can be chosen to abuse power. I don't feel that Drow have a 'huge' advantage over the other races currently available for evils. Further, there are evil-only Wards already in places and other places already have Drow listed as an 'unauthorized race.'

• Players with no background in roleplay - the accidental abuser.

Drow now have a kismet requirement (and I believe Kismet Cost?) which would no longer allow players to just make a Drow as their first character. The players who have Drow available to them will generally have little to no excuse due to the requirement. Perhaps the requirement can be adjusted higher and the cost (if one is available) remain the same.

• Inexperienced Drow reaching the surface

While this may have been easily accomplished in the past, the reality is that leveling up has been made far more difficult. I think this is positive change for them to finally be seeing the light of day.

I do, however, really believe that they should be forced to take daylight adeptation in order to enjoy the reward of traversing the lands above (since it's hard to code the actual affects [other than just combat, spot checks, etc] of light sensitivity). Anyhow, think of it as a toll!

[Oghma]

Towards Garl's argument from the other post. Another issue with drow surface rp is the potential for surface drow suddenly beginning a Drizzt-like rp of a good aligned drow. Another factor concerns that the concern of the drow is the Underdark. Drow will only come to the surface in quite raids which we could not support as we enforce strict pk rules. Also, the only coded deity available to drow is firmly set in the Deep Underdark, there are other deities of the Dark Court trying go to the surface, none of which is coded.

I will however cite that there was an organized drow rp in Zhentil Keep about two years ago, where several properly rp'd and briefed characters were given a limited rp in the city and environs. It was policed dedicatedly but with the new areas in the underdark and Skullport being used as a starting town, I do not see the point of such rp, outside of a very dedicated imm sponsored event. Even then they should be as rare as a sober dwarf.

EDIT: Might want to merge this topic with the roles of evil in Fk in the same forum, since it is in direct reference to the thread.

[Balek]

I've never thought that "Drow on the surface could try to emulate Drizzt" to be a compelling argument to keep them off the surface. There are a lot of races that are supposed to be evil in FK canon. Orcs are supposed to be evil. Tieflings are supposed to be evil (this is FK canon even if it's not FR canon). We trust a lot of people to play evil on the surface already and I don't think there would be a problem if we restricted surface drow to evil alignments at creation.

I can understand wanting to keep the number of drow on the surface down to a reasonable level. I think a drow on the surface should require an application and experience playing evil characters. We probably shouldn't require experience playing drow, simply because there isn't much opportunity for roleplaying in the underdark with the limited player base. I don't see any value in forcing someone to sit around alone in Menzo until they rack up enough drow hours to hit the surface.

[Lerytha]

I really, really, really want to see a drow at night, in a forest, surprising my character. Or everyone's character. I really, really, really want to see powerful drow from Menzoberranzan engaging in alliances and manipulations with the already-established "surface villains". I really, really, really want to get a chance to roleplay with some of those big baddies down there.

I know, I can go to Skullport and meet them. But travel should not be just one way.

I really don't see why opening up the surface world for drow of a certain level (and maybe credibility) is neccessarily going to lead to an increase in PK. Nor do I agree that it is neccessarily going to lead to an increase in Drizz't-like roleplay.

We have applications for dwellings, and special roleplay. Why not set up a system where drow can apply for a "token" that takes them to the surface? There are many safeguards that can be put in place (if they really are needed).

There is a whole world under our surface that is just crying out to be roleplay with!

Is there any chance at all, that this might be considered? If there are appropriate safeguards?

~Ol

[Sairaven]

Personally, I'd just be happy to see more people in Skullport period.

Ever since I started my latest character there, I've seen all of four people there.

As a rogue, it makes it very, very hard to get any group for advancement or RP.

[Lerytha]

At the moment, however, characters have very little reason to actually visit Skullport. The big bads down there have very little influence over the surface world. If the big bads could occasionally travel up to the surface to actually affect outcomes up there, there would be an increase in traffic to Skullport. People investigating plots, people trying to gain the patronage of powerful drow that for the first time, have dabbly-dabbly fingers in the pies of Faerun.

I believe letting drow onto the surface can only enrich the MUD.

[Dalvyn]

As I have already stated in several other threads, I don't think it's a good idea to spend too much "zots" on underground areas, simply because we don't have the player base to sustain 3 major centers of roleplay (sustaining 2 of them is already hard). And the thinner you spread your jam, the less tasty it is.

As for drow easily joining the surface, it is going to lead to drow doing all the things that surface-dwellers do (mainly visiting trainers and completing quests). In the end, we'll end up with just another race of black-skinned elf-like evil surface characters called "drow" but with no relation to the real "drow".

There is currently a place where surface dwellers and drow can meet. It simply takes two or three high level surface dwellers to go down to Skullport and meet drow. There can be regular meetings there, there can be plotting, there can be trades between surface and underdark goods, and it is not used. Why would a way from below to the surface be used more? For only one reason ... because it would allow drow to complete surface quests and peruse surface trainers. But that would not add roleplay (roleplay can already be had with a little effort).

I do not believe in the "Let's add quest areas and goodies in the underdark, so surface dwellers are attracted down there to roleplay with the drow", because it's already been tried before; it's called Undermountain. What happens? Surface dwellers go down there once, complete the quests, then hardly come back at all. Adding more goodies down there will perhaps make them come down yet another time, but that's all.

Let drow reach the surface and we'll see a big increase in the number of drow. Will they look like drow? Will they behave like drow? Will they be special and rare like drow? No, they will just be (for the most part - there are exceptions) evil guys that have black skin and pointed ears and white hair and purple eyes ... oh, and +2 Dex and innate levitation and other stat bonuses. Drow will be undistinguishable from characters created in Zhentil Keep ... most will behave the same, wear the same things and do the same quests. Think it through and I'm sure you will agree.

I've never thought that "Drow on the surface could try to emulate Drizzt" to be a compelling argument

There's more than just drow emulating Drizzt. There's the big buzz about "how kewl" it is to play a drow that would incite people to create drow and then play them like your average evil guy with nothing "drowish" about them. By allowing drow to the surface, we tell them "Go do the same things as those from the surface" while by supporting an underground drow community (which will only be possible once the player base is large enough), we can actually have drow who behave like drow (complete with treacherous matrons, inter- and intra- house struggles, and so on).

I can understand wanting to keep the number of drow on the surface down to a reasonable level. I think a drow on the surface should require an application and experience playing evil characters.

Applications as to who get to reach the surface or not is opening a big can of worms. It will get ugly quickly and there will be many flags with "Favouritism!" raised again.

I really, really, really want to see a drow at night, in a forest, surprising my character. Or everyone's character. I really, really, really want to see powerful drow from Menzoberranzan engaging in alliances and manipulations with the already-established "surface villains". I really, really, really want to get a chance to roleplay with some of those big baddies down there.

That might really, really, really be fun the first and perhaps the second time. Then you'll see drow clad in surface-made armour that barely makes sense for them to wear; you will see them using quest rewards from rewards that make no sense for them; and you will not see anything drowish about them. Allow drow to the surface and they'll lose their drow identity.

That being said, I'm fine with having imm-run events happen where drow can get to the surface. That is all fine, as long as it is rare.

At the moment, however, characters have very little reason to actually visit Skullport.

I'm fine with hearing suggestions that would incite people to go down and meet up/trade with drow. Drow could be the unique provider for something, maybe even some spell components.

[Leohand]

I'm fine with hearing suggestions that would incite people to go down and meet up/trade with drow. Drow could be the unique provider for something, maybe even some spell components.

Perhaps if we start making foci, let it only be crafted by drow player characters, giving one more incentive to rp drow wizards, and since they are only crafted by drow, that would lure people into the underdark to buy these special components.

[Nedylene]

I personally have a drow that I rarely play. At one time I played her regularly but I will admit I have troubles rping a female drow. I have more troubles with a female drow RP then I do with any other one. But, thanks to the time I spent with my drow I understand better how the RP down there work and how things in the underdark work.

Right now in comparison to the surface world the underdark is small. It is not small by definition, but on the surface right now there is unlimited opportunities for RP and adventure. In the underdark, while it will take quite awhile, the places to explore and the people you meet WILL run thin after some time. I believe this is the reason that most people who play drow keep thinking "surface" like a calming mantra. There is more possibilities. Things are not so "cookie cutter" this is how you are meant to act, this is how you will act or fear the wrath of Lloth.

I personally have been involved with two seperate RPs where drow came to the surface. Two in the span of six years of playing this mud. One was a large Evil RP which was an attack on a temple (No PCs involved on the goodie side just NPCs and it was STELLAR) .. The other was a smaller RP where Lloth brought her 'children' to the surface to capture my elf who escaped the Abyss with the aid of a staff run Elminster. Both were absolutely incredible rps, well thought out and involved a multitude of people. The O_O factor of seeing a drow and working, or running from, the drow was almost tangable. This is how it is meant to be.

That said I do agree that there should be some hideously difficult way for the drow to work their way to the surface for events. One that needs to be 'opened' by staff. I always hated the "here's a gate for them to come" part. Make them work for it. But how could this be accomplished? Currently the only route to the surface is through Undermountain which would dump the drow straight into the heart of Waterdeep. SO not a good idea. In FR world there are other ways to the surface. One of the most guarded, hidden, not spoken of is the way under Shadowdale. THIS would be the prime place for drow to have an 'entrence' to the surface. A small farming place that would be easy for a drow to sneak through and run to Cormanthyr to hide with the drow infesting the forest. And even better.. right near the heart of evil rp in FK. Zhentil Keep is RIGHT there. So... My thought is why don't we get some builders who are interested in the Underdark, who have active drow characters and who have a 'heart' that screams Darkness and Drow take on the task of building a dangerous, tricky and difficult way for the drow to come to the surface. One where they can come dangerously close but that 'chasm' or that 'magic wall' or that 'cliff' is blocking there way. You get the picture. I only suggest this because it will give perhaps more incentive for drow to be around more. And more incentive for 'evil' to think of an unsteady truce with the drow for some 'grand' rp. While I do know there are some people who will believe there is no need for more underdark areas, I disagree. I think if the underdark is 'larger' it may help the drow who are feeling downtrodded, bored and unsatisfied. Lets face it.. Some people here on this mud come here because the drow are a working, fun race. We have a very diverse player group here and personally, it is one of the charms of this mud. We should not try to hinder them or berate them. Yes, when the jam is spread thin it does not taste as good, but if we have builders who are willing to expand the underdark and even a small steady playerbase of drow (I know at least 6 who prefer them without even thinking) then it is worth it.

I'm done with my two cents and off my soap box now.... Now to tackle the evil thread sometime today.....

PS we need spellcheck on the forum

[Selveem]

Drow will be undistinguishable from characters created in Zhentil Keep ... most will behave the same, wear the same things and do the same quests. Think it through and I'm sure you will agree.

Umm, no offense, but the intelligent Drow can already get that sort of equipment. The intelligent 'merchants' of this MUD, making the right connections, can have whatever they want. I really don't care. All the more reason to build more areas with different equipment. Give more reasons for diversity. Perhaps some restring tokens or something from Imm-Run quests or special roleplays. Or, for fear of favoritism, let's allow glory exhanges for it.

I really don't see this as a reason to say 'No, screw the Drow. Keep thee down below.'

I personally would LOVE to see more restrings on this MUD. Some equipment may even be appropriate that just is the wrong color. Things like that, small things, make a large difference in perspective of 'twink' and 'roleplayer.'

[Toronar]

In my (newbie) opinion, this mud is not overpopulated, and this decision even decrease the possibility to meet other players.

[Mariela]

You can tell alot by other character names on the Who List.

Sometimes you can really tell who are the drow and who are not.

From just a glance, not having a drow or any character that has started in Skullport..... in my opinion, most drow characters DO NOT log that often. There are some exceptions to the rule, but I have hardly ever seen a majority of them online.

I think I would care wether or not the drow were allowed on the surface if the base of people who actuallyplay the drow spent as much time being their drow as much as people spend hanging around Waterdeep doing nothing and waiting for it to rain.

I am really surprized the drow players don't take it more as a badge of honor that they are in their own zone and out of ALL the pocketsof people have the ability to really have direct hands on to their setting and their world. There are lower numbers of players who stomp there, and thus, easier to gather at the same time if one picked a "drow day" . There is more ability to line everyone up into different factions and say, "You are part of House bleh, you are part of House bleh" And actually have a really good internal conflict that deals less with PKilling and more about teh character's very nature.

And hell, if you watn more things to do that are static, you have an entire zone that you can kinda code up, and design as you wish. ON the surface world, things are fairly well set and are added as things are done. There are ten times more characters and opinions running about. The only way to really spread it out and get it more to a personal level is to run with one's own posse. So you and your clique of five other characters try to have their personal crap that is always getting interfeared with by the other 10 characters who are boreda t the moment.

I dunno. Seems like an awful lot of crazy whining about not being able to reach the surface when that particular action is not going to CHANGE anything for your characters. And it's also not going to do anything but promote more situations that you have to kill your way out of.

Until people can start thinking outside of the PKill box.. I'd much rather leave the drow where they can Pkill one another... and see if we can't get to a more higher class version of evil where terror and suspense is part of the game.

[Glim]

I am really surprized the drow players don't take it more as a badge of honor that they are in their own zone and out of ALL the pocketsof people have the ability to really have direct hands on to their setting and their world. There are lower numbers of players who stomp there, and thus, easier to gather at the same time if one picked a "drow day" . There is more ability to line everyone up into different factions and say, "You are part of House bleh, you are part of House bleh" And actually have a really good internal conflict that deals less with PKilling and more about teh character's very nature.

The problem is... this is a RP mud. It defeats the purpose of doing anything if you cannot use it in your roleplay and there is no one around to roleplay with. I really think that the root of all of this is merely the ability to get out there and actually get some roleplay with the drows. Most of the time there will be very few people online as drow, if any, so them being stuck down there with nothing to do makes the character pointless.

It's what I see as a call for help in giving drow the ability to roleplay with people more often than one person once week if that.

[Mariela]

Umm.
Point.

If there are SOOOO many people who want to play drow, maybe schedual a day where there is more than one person to play with every week? Make it drow Fridays.. or whatever.


They are NOT going to get any more additional RP experiances on the surface from the other characters. UNLESS we break the sterotype about drow and let them be just another race. EVERYONE even EVIL people should distrust them, and feel threatened by their presence on the surface. NO ONE IC should want that.

I feel bad that they get gipped out of RP, don't get me wrong. However, that ist he bed you lay down in when you decide to play drow or half drow. You take the bitter with the sweet.

If you watn more RP, make it possible for more RP.
I point to the example of the Orc feasts. A gathering that is strictly racial that keeps them to their religions and so forth. The drow should feelt he need to do the same.

I am so in favor of drow fridays.

[Selveem]

Mariela,

What you don't seem to understand about the Drow is that not everyone has the time to meet with each other like that. There are a number of reasons why Drow RP is very limited. Their exposure to other players being one of their main hamstrings.

Let me explain:

In the past, anyone could make a Drow. Even then, there were few because evils were VERY much frowned upon in the previous administration. Hell, even Necromancers got spat on for spells because of their evil nature. Many of the Evils of that era have moved on or rarely log on anymore. Those were the 'powerful' Evils who braved ostricism and were largely ignored by much of the player base and Administration. It's easy to say 'Well, just get them back on!' but harder in practice when some of those people no longer maintain the old forms of contact we may have had for them or they have simply decided the MUD isn't for them and don't feel the temptation to try with the new Administration. Yes, their loss. But it's ours, too.

Also, keep in mind that Drow have a high kismet cost. I can't speak for anyone else, but why would I want to use up all my kismet on a character that I will get little (or even NO) interaction with others. The type of character who, if they die, probably can't even hope for another player to rescue them. There are also others less fortunate who have very limited time to even play. I think it is a bit selfish to suggest that those people just 'suck it up and deal with it.'

Please don't suggest that if they were allowed to reach the surface that they would be offered no interaction. There are plenty of characters willing to roleplay with the Drow. There are the innocent, the brave, the fool-hardy, and even those who may be more innately Evil than the Drow. There are those who might seek to infiltrate their ranks, too. Special RPs that could occur for the Harpers!

There are plenty of possibilities; most of them are limited only to imagination or lack thereof.

[Mariela]

OH please.

Forget the song and dance about kismet. I have seen people that I know have not been playing the game for three months hop up with the most powerful toys and trinkets. It is not that hard to accumulate kismet. Especially if your primary character is trying to get out of level 10! I have characters that I ahven't been playing a terribly long time that has crossed all of the kismet requirements for just about anything. It isn't HARD.

So that is a horrible excuse.

Yes, the problem IS that the drow are not gathering together. Is there a count of how many drows there are in game? Perverse curiosity for me. Cause the way it is being made sound.. there's like six drow characters and that's it.

Which stands to reason why they'd want on the surface. But on the other hand, why should we allow such things when the ONLY RP they are going to get involved in is Pkill or looting? Besides some Drizzit moments, that is what drow do. They are not NICE characters. There is no mercy in their way of thinking. They are like sun elves on crack with grenades! And that's just from their perspective....

That is not counting what is going to happen when a group of drow hit the surface for the first time and get completely and utterly scared crapless about the open spaces. Agoraphobia anyone?

And then on top of that, the only recourse is for the evil peopel to push them back to the underdark caus ethey aren't going to play ball. And the good asre going to have to kill them down.

Now. If I was going to play a drow.. .I would be pretty damn bummed abou thte fact that it's like 75% possible taht I am going to die by stepping out of the Underdark. I'd commune my butt in the dark and stay there. Self preservation.

And it is not as if there ISN"T a way out now. It's just complicated. If we force open the gates between Skullport and the rest of the game, Its going to change the real chance for role plays about that once in a lifetime raid by the drow... that could be very dramatic and fun for everyone. It iwll make it everyday place and then we just have yet another race.. ho hum.

If playing a drow is SOOOO inconvient for people to play appropriately, why play them at all?

[Orplar]

Well, I was for having drow on he surface. Until that last post.

Sun elves on crack with grenades. Goodness, tha is an amazing visual.

[Mariela]

You are talking about a society that is matriarchal... which that alone will clash with most societies on the surface. (Males do rule the world in most hero epics!) Their goddess is known pretty much as the one who gave the finger to Corelleon. Let's see.. consulting the book core book...

Lloth
Domains: Chaos, Darkness, Destruction, Drow, Evil, Spider, Trickery

What about this screams, I will be social with others on the surface? Or that I even WANT to be on the surface?

Portfolio: Spiders, evil, darkness, chaos , assasins, drow

I will give you that she MIGHT want to let people out now and again an assasinate people.. but when you are chaos and evil.. why not inflict that upon your own people?

lolth is a cruel, capricous deity who is believed to be insane by many because she pits her own worshipers against each other.

Ah, I sense validation of my point...

In the defense of wanting to be on the surface, lolth does go out of her way to try to take away power and put fear into the hearts of the other deities of the surface. However, it's pretty clear from the book that she is all about playing with her followers first.. and making sure she has sole playground on her members. She is NOT going to let them just wander out onto the surface whenever they want. Nope. Nada. It's not going to happen. She can't control them if new ideas are added to the mix. It is the same reason why she would probably be inclined to keep OUTSIDERS out of the Underdark. Yes, she wants them to come into her web, but if they defeat the web of her power.. Lloth has nothing. She is the ultimate user in the Underdark. It is INFACT all about her.

And THAT is what the RP in the Skullport area should be about. Ultimate domination of hte dark. Playing for Lloths favor... ect.

It should be highly political, violent, elegant and yet dangerous. It should matter what you say and who you know.

You can't do that if the drow players aren't willing to commit to being online at the same time on given days. So that way the backstabbing can be possible. Branching out into the surface is NOT going to give you what the setting needs to truly be unique and drow.

[Mouat]

I say everybody create a drow and when you're playing your drow and no other drow are on, just put in your title "please play with me, I'm lonely." And those that have drows can log them on and go backstab each other.

I must admit, from what I have read, drows hate the surface. I just finished reading the Legacy of the Drow series and the drows did not like it up there. They hate the surface and can only think of me me me, screw everybody else. They like the Underdark. They feel close to Lloth.

I think this could open up a can of worms, if drows can come to the surface, then I guess all the surface people can go to the drows? I would truly hate to see that, the realms are big enough as it is.

If you're not sitting at the fountain at WD trying to figure out which invisibile Mystran wizard is changing clothes or watching mad priests collect manure from flying griffons, the surface is a big place, you could not run into anybody for hours...

I guess what's next, should surface dwellers get to go into the Mithril Halls and undergrounds?

[Orplar]

Only tradesman...