The place for Evils in FK

[Hviti]

If a builder put a restriction on an area to keep x alignment/class/race out, I believe that means they didn't want that alignment/class/race to have items/training from there. A member of a barred alignment/class/race having one of these things directly goes against the coder's intent in coding the restrictions.

[Dalvyn]

ICly convincing someone to go some place and do something for you is fine. It might have rather bad IC consequences for those people, but it's not against the rule, because it is realistic.

If you are prevented from entering somewhere because of a guard, it is also fine to follow someone who can enter. Generally, people are allowed to bring in guests. Of course, if you allow someone to follow you in (ICly bring them as a guest), you are held responsible for his actions.

If the entry is not restricted by a mob but by some sort of "barrier" that would not let you though, following someone to bypass the ward is code abuse though.

The question you should ask yourself is: would this work "in real life"? If not, then don't do it. And if you are unsure, question and ask an imm or a newbie helper for advice.

[Duranamir]

As far as evils in the game go i broadly think the balance is right. There are evils out there who are frankly scary to meet and play with, this is a good thing. On an individual level then Evil works and this is probably no bad thing.

The restrictions on areas is fine. There are areas that are more evil friendly than good friendly and i don’t feel as an evil that restricted, who wants to visit Silverymoon anyway, horrible place .

And i do agree the future of evils is in there own hands. Evil players need to nurture (though probably in a not quite so cute and fluffy way as that word normally means) the younger evils, corrupting them to the true ways of power and drawing them down into the darkness that is the true view of the world .

*climbs on soap box*

The Drow.

I still feel, as i always have, that there would be a greater gain than loss in letting the higher level Drow actually get to the surface at times. They represent a group and view of the world that is undeniably evil. They make excellent villains as has been proved by more than one campaign, and even in some existing areas in the game. As group they are in my view not as directly confrontational as for example orcs and frankly have far more style . The style of RP suggested by Dalvyn with indirect manipulation of events, grand plots and subtle manipulation of the surface siders is far more in the Drow vein than almost any other evil race.

The Drow are a relatively (well they are at least a bit chaotic) coherent group . As a culture it is i feel quite well policed at the moment even beyond the very high kismet cost to create one. New Drow tend to be picked up quite early and inducted into the proper behaviour by there older meaner relatives . And there is no way that a newbie Drow is ever going to make it to the surface !. Especially if the only route up is through UM or Skullport.

It would give the Drow something to aim for, because currently once you reach high level there very little you can do (though i try) to actually interact with the other players of the game (which is after all the point of the Mud ). I still dont see why Drow are discriminated against. Other evil players/races have the freedom to act as the see fit understanding the rule of IC repercussions of IC actions which i personally think is the best rule on the whole mud. Why should a Drow who can reach the surface not do it ?. The only real answer to that is out of respect for OOC rules, and what do they have to do with good roleplay ?.

*climbs off soap box*

So in conclusion. Good probably will always "appear" to win, given the player base it can not really be any other way. But there is a place for evil in the world, in the shadows and the night the good should beware ! And that is part of what makes the mud great, what fun would it be if everyone was a paladin ?.

Long live Evil

Duranamir the Drow (proud to be evil)

[Kirkus]

Someone said something I have a big problem with. I don't feel that just because I am an evil character I should roll over and be the 'evil looses to to good' guy. We are players too. And if I am gonna play a game I want to win some too. I feel every character should have at least the option of winning.

Oh and end of the day, if you have no evils because they have gotten tired of never getting to win, which is what I think is happening, then all those goodies get to do is sit arround market square again and talk about the good ol' days...

[Aegir]

The Drow.

While I agree that there should be a way for Drow to get to the surface, I've largely given that idea up at this point, and decided instead to focus on increasing the playability of Drow from another angle.

So far, the Drow's ability to play has been curtailed because of their limited contact with the majority of the pbase, as well as an extremely limited area in which to adventure in. I think both of these can be fixed with a little effort, without crossing that "Drow on the surface" line.

Short version: expand the underdark, make it an area for Drow (and other underdark races) as well as a high-level group quest area, and it encourages PCs from the surface to go down and explore. Add some more access points, connect everything with tunnels, and presto, you have a usable area.

Its not perfect, and yes I'd prefer it if high-level Drow had an option of reaching the surface, but I'll concede that argument for now (I've been making it off and on for about 7 years, after all).

[Dalvyn]

As I have already stated in several other threads, I don't think it's a good idea to spend too much "zots" on underground areas, simply because we don't have the player base to sustain 3 major centers of roleplay (sustaining 2 of them is already hard). And the thinner you spread your jam, the less tasty it is.

As for drow easily joining the surface, it is going to lead to drow doing all the things that surface-dwellers do (mainly visiting trainers and completing quests). In the end, we'll end up with just another race of black-skinned elf-like evil surface characters called "drow" but with no relation to the real "drow".

There is currently a place where surface dwellers and drow can meet. It simply takes two or three high level surface dwellers to go down to Skullport and meet drow. There can be regular meetings there, there can be plotting, there can be trades between surface and underdark goods, and it is not used. Why would a way from below to the surface be used more? For only one reason ... because it would allow drow to complete surface quests and peruse surface trainers. But that would not add roleplay (roleplay can already be had with a little effort).

I do not believe in the "Let's add quest areas and goodies in the underdark, so surface dwellers are attracted down there to roleplay with the drow", because it's already been tried before; it's called Undermountain. What happens? Surface dwellers go down there once, complete the quests, then hardly come back at all. Adding more goodies down there will perhaps make them come down yet another time, but that's all.

[Mele]

Ugh, persnickity.

I'm so over this drow and the surface talk. It's been going on for years. For years, drow have held the same warning. The same kismet cost.

Guess what, there are many other race and evil options for the surface.

If you don't think there is enough stuff for drow down there, build it. (Which I'm pretty sure you are/have Dura, I'm not speaking directly to you.)

Have you ever applied for ONE drow to manage a sneak out to the top?

If you haven't tried there's no place complaining about it. It would ruin the unquie of the drow race to allow them all up, and it's come up a million times always to be denied.

[Rhytania]

I meant to chime in earlier so if some of the ideas might go back to a couple of the original posts I apologize.

After playing my evils/quasi evils for a while now I have notice some things about how the world perspective works in game. The fact that everyone takes for granted that GOODS will win is a bit demoralizing for me. I understand the Judeo-Christian values of good vs. evil, right vs. wrong, light vs. dark, ect ect. However I find that to be extremely two dimensional, and after a while just plain idiotic. Why do goods have to win? Is it written in the bylaws of the game? The reason we want good to win is because of our deep rooted desires in our psyche however the definition of good vs. evil or right vs. wrong varies from region to region not only in the game, but also in the real world. So who’s to say whose definition of 'right' is right?

Back to the topic though, there are a few examples throughout various role-plays that I have witnessed or been in involved in during my 7 years I have been with this game. One is that the goods will always win in the end. This is almost to the point the goods seem to take it for granted.

When you’re evil, you are plotting, scheming, making and breaking alliances, and taking every chance and opportunity you get to advance yourself and your goals. The goods however just have to make friends and be nice to each other and their pretty much guaranteed easy street on the fast track to 50. Honestly I truly believe that the evil side of the player base spends more time scheming and plotting about their next move while the goods just seem to blunder into it by the guided hand of divine intervention.

There have a been a couple of times where days, weeks, and months of planning, prep, and action have gotten tossed to the side by just a couple of minutes of a divine intervention or 'good' aligned imm controlled hero stepping in to save the day. Well my question is where are our Gods? Our heroes?

Maybe what should be asked more is more of a fair play policy. Instead of stepping in to save the day of the goods let them figure it out solo. If they waste an opportunity or make a mistake let them suffer the full consequences. More oft than not you find that when matched toe to toe yes the goods will outnumber the evils, that is fine, but when the goods are completely out of their league in a plot or plan, what to do they do? they shrug and talk about it while they wait for some form of imm intervention to make it right. Well that mentality is plain horrible. The fact that the goods know they will win is what irks me the most. To quote the motto of the Belize Defense Force Jungle Warfare Instructor School, 'Those who are surprised, deserve to die.' A bit extreme but true nonetheless. After reading through many of the goods are suppose to win posts here I challenge anyone to rationally explain to me WHY they should win if they have been outmaneuvered, outwitted, outsmarted tactically then why should the evils roll over and be forced to give up the fight?

Tell me this if good is suppose to win over evil then why after millennia of the pantheons being in existence (which translates to just about any game) does their still exist the goods and the evils? Because it is a constant struggle, not a definitive good will win.

Imagine the game without any of the evils. Who will you fight? Who will you
plot and scheme against? After a while you can only buy so many clothes and talk about so many things in MS before it gets old. And unless you want it to be a PVE game where all the antagonists are mobs, then we are headed down that path with this mentality.

[Mouat]

There have a been a couple of times where days, weeks, and months of planning, prep, and action have gotten tossed to the side by just a couple of minutes of a divine intervention or 'good' aligned imm controlled hero stepping in to save the day. Well my question is where are our Gods? Our heroes?

For those of you that missed it, Danten, with the support an evil horde from Lord Malar executed several goodies not too long ago and those goodies where denied any help by their Dieties even though they were loved by their diety and hold high positions in their respective faiths.

I do not mean to say this is the norm, evil does triumph from time to time.

It has also been my experience from playing muds for a LONG time, that it is much more difficult to properly play an evil player - too much of the hack and slash and evil stereotypical maniacial laughter. I still remember back when I started playing with Mouat, I had several evil players just flat out challenge him to a fight not much time for any RP, they'd just attack and then they would lay there stunned.

And what's this big deal with Kismet? I thought kismet can't be used for much except maybe for character creation, I don't even play much and I have enough now to start a few Fey'ri's and a few Balor's.

What I see now are a fair amount of good evil players, to the point, I need to be careful when i go wondering around, and the evils I see are always in packs. Most of these evils are experienced players who do a fine job at their evils.

And in terms of goodies, they have rules due to their inherit nature that they must follow. For example, we can't peek at those Mystran wizards that keep undressing and dressing wile Invis. Sorry, I thought this thread could use some levity...

[Tavik]

Rhytania, I may have missed it, but I don't think anyone is calling for evils to just recognize what they are and simply roll over and die. What I think is being said is that the game is generally going to have the feeling of good triumphs over evil simply because the majority of the player base are goods. Numbers don't mean everything, but they sure help. That being the case, completely ignoring divine intervention, goods are going to win more often than evils. It's just the way the players take the game. If players want to keep that mentality of good wins over evil, who are we to stop them? They are players just as much as you and I and deserve an equal chance to have their fun. Now, I will restate what I said earlier in that it's the *Imms* that need to maintain the neutral attitude, and again, I think they do a very good job of this. I can recall plenty of instances of both evil and good deities showing up. I honestly think the divine intervention aspect is well balanced.

Furthermore, I think all players of evils can agree that evils are just harder to play and that it is something you have to accept. What do you get out of? MUCH more RP. I think evils get a TON more RP opportunity than most goods because they have to scheme and plot.

Now, it does need to be recognized that the players of evils are entitled to their fun as well and as such be permitted to win. But you also have to keep in mind the mentality that most people have, and that is: In order for an evil to win, another character(s) have to lose and that an evil character winning generally tends to be detrimental to the opposing good character. The inverse of that is not true. Now please note those are general statements and not rules. That being the case (generally) it may not be as much fun for a good to lose as for an evil to lose (I know; cast 'flamestrike' Tavik).

So yes, evils need to be given the opportunity to win, but that doesn't mean the goods just have to let them. I've seen a few instances where an evil makes a mistake my character could have used to blow their RP wide open, but I decided not to, because the RP they had intended looked like it was going to be awesome. I know a few others have done the same. We aren't out to discourage people from playing evil characters. We NEED our evil characters. But that doesn't mean we (the players, not the Imms) can't do our best to foil your plots.

[Rhytania]

Tavik, I understand what you mean, and im not upset about what has been said, its the underlining tones and the between the line words that have me worried. And with everyone assuming oh its ok cause in the end good will win is baloney. In the end the smartest, fastest, and strongest win. If its the goods so be it, if its the evils so be it as well. Im just asking for the goods to be more open minded to it.

Goods gang up and kill the evils, its for the glory of the game, evils gang up and kill the goods then 'omg its the evil pking twinks doing code abuse'. I just think the goods either forget or have no clue, about how much RP and planning goes into a well coordinated evil attack.

The evils know its harder to play, we know we have to not only be worried about our enemies but even more so about our friends. We KNOW that we are destined to a life of paranoia, solitude, and violence, but what we dont expect is the general feeling of the player base being that no matter what happens good is going to win merely because they are suppose to win. I like a challenge, I WANT the goods to foil our plots and schemes and WORK against us, NOT be giving an out by the imms in some form of divine intervention merely under the basis that good is suppose to win.

As to the Malar RP with Danten, thats nice for the malarites but not all evils are for execution and mass murders. And honestly when was the last time evils where involved in a massive widescale RP? The gem shards? Hmm divine intervention. The Waukeen Rp? Divine intervention. The FAI rp? Well that was good mainly cause we worked together, both good and evil, to take out the demons. Thats just the last 3 that came to mind but im sure there are more.

All im asking for is for the goods players to stop with this incessant Mommy or Daddy Imms will make everything better becuase we are GOOD mentality. And go out and actualy DO something other than confront evils in a PK situation then go crying when they get stomped on.

I enjoy a challenge, I say bring it on and lets roll the dice and see what happens, but if the dice are loaded whats the point?

Also as a request to the imms, if you are running an RP use us! You need villians, antagonists, bad guys or just something to stir up the pot? Bring us in even if for just brief cameo roles.

[Solaghar]

As someone who plays one of the more prominent evils here I suppose I should make some points. I think that the fact that Mouat and some others keep mentioning the relatively recent Malarite killing shows in part how rare such things are. It was a group of goods somewhat outnumbering evils, but as an evil one of the things I have learned is that when you start seeing emotes made by imms suggesting that you're being surrounded, that Elven bows are being drawn, that guards are suggesting that you leave, you're being given a very clear chance to leave before you're killed. One good person did in fact leave the area, but for the rest, it seemed to me as though the idea that something bad could happen to all of them collectively, that they would be hurt or punished by the immortals, didn't even occur to them. I always play Zarafae as though death is the worst thing that could happen to her, because one never really can be sure one will be resurrected, you have to treat every death as though it can be permanent, and hence when it looks like it's time to beat a retreat, I never hesitate to do so.

Evils are tougher to play. More is expected of them. They aren't catered to in the same way that goods are. I don't think anyone would argue with these ideas. I have often wondered whether a part of it, even subconsciously, is simply the fact that the immortals here taking specific responsibility for the churches their characters represent has a bearing on this, as the immortals themselves are overwhelmingly good or neutral deities.

But in our way, and I think it's important to recognize this, evils are heroes just as much as good people are. We have our triumphs and tragedies. We certainly are not some unified block, I deliberately court rivalry with certain evil people because I think it makes the game more interesting than just having every evil person be friends. That goods and evils can oppose one another's interests makes the game much more interesting. Mobs are all fun and such, but if I wanted to just kill mobs I'd play a game like Baldur's Gate. Having PCs as one's primary opponents makes things much, much more interesting because you're really pitting yourself against someone who can truly oppose you.

This is the crux of my argument for those looking for something specific
As we try to think of more things for organizations like the Zhents, Harpers and such to do, much of it falls down to stuff whose end result would be PK, and the official policy is that we don't want to encourage PKill, which I understand. But I think that the fact of the matter is that there is almost no way to affect what goes on in this game apart from other players. We're all players existing in what is a fairly static world. This means that if we want to interact with others, have conflict with others, then that interaction takes the form of bothering one another, befriending one another, etc. But in the end, we're almost all entirely personal beings.

One of the few organizations out there, and I like it a lot, is the Waterdeep Watch. It's not as organized as it once was, but it still provides a way for people to interact within the city, gain a position of influence and power within the city, that is based more on their RP than anything else. It allows the players to interact with the city. We need everyone in this game to be the feature characters, not second bananas to auctioned characters (something which I am glad has gone down from the past, I think it was actually harmful to have the true movers and shakers out there).

We need to have more ways people can interact. We need to remove the restrictions on people being in multiple organizations and change them to restrictions on people -leading- multiple organizations. We need to make it much easier to start an organization, removing restrictions almost entirely from player-organized groupings. And we need to turn over some authority in the various cities in the game to players, with concrete results for the way the game reacts to things. This will give evil people something to do besides player killing/harassment, but also provide things for good people to do. Zhentil Keep and the Zhentarim itself is ruled by auction chars. Evil people need to be able to fight for leadership of the Zhents. They need to be able to try to get the influence of the Shadow Thieves to secure their position as one of the premier nobles in Darromar. We need the Zhents to recruit for the Zhentilar, a military organization parallel to the Waterdeep Watch which will make laws for Zhentil Keep.

Evils right now have nothing else to do but harass other players, whether through killing, plotting against them, stealing from them, etc. There is nothing that makes you feel evil about killing some Elven mobs anymore than someone feels 'good' about killing some goblins or drow mobs. In my opinion, killing, training, has always been the dullest part of this game, I thrive on interaction with other PCs, but I'd also like to feel like my character as I grow to become powerful and respected and feared, can turn that into real power and authority. Gaining a high rank in the Zhentilar perhaps.

For humans, perhaps becoming confirmed as a noble or city councilmember in a city like Darromar, Berdusk, Daggerford. And once these things are possible, and you make it an ability for people to actually RP some limited control of these areas, their resources, as well as to have internal RP based on this, it only takes a few people to turn an area into an active RP site. If Darromar for instance, had as few as three active players who committed themselves as citizens of that city, established a leadership structure, etc... they could represent the city. We could have RP with this stuff, even if it's all entirely pretend! You could have meetings of cities. But right now we can't even pretend to have any influence over cities, militias, organizations. For the active Zhents, no matter how good their ideas might be, it always falls to an auction character. In a city like Waterdeep, with their council of 12, players have no authority whatsoever there. Why not open up the open lord seat to PCs? Or a few hidden seats to PCs who keep it a secret? Even if the admins pick the person, it's better to have some leadership from the playerbase, someone who has grown up as a character here and is part of our world taking some responsibility, rather than just some mob who sits in a room and doesn't interact.

Evils will never be truly respected or considered as equals here until they have things to do apart from bothering other players. The benefits from adding more of these systems would apply just as strongly for goods, but it would cause a real paradigm shift for evils. The tyrant, the brute, the enforcer, the chaos-monger in all of us would have a chance to come out, and we could compete for the limited number of positions there would be in the world. We'd have more incentive to speak to and encourage younger players, because as a leader you'd want them for your militia, your spy network, your mage circle, whatever. And little to none of it would revolve around just harassing people for no reason, because right now I feel as though sometimes the only way I get any interaction is to stand around and deliberately court an insult, something that will force me to respond in an evil way. I don't like that.

I want people to oppose me for doing truly evil things, instituting evil laws, repressing people, even if they're mobs and it's just heard in a post, bullying people who come into what is legitimately my territory, etc. There is a reason that in D&D by 9th level or so, people start taking strongholds, gaining minions and the like. Killing NPCs and gaining treasure without having an effect upon the world gets dull. You want to be the main character, not just an addendum. Give us all the chance to be main characters, and you will see how things can be. And the worst that will happen is it doesn't work and we shrug and say, "Oh well." Literally nothing will be lost by trying this out, and I'm sure that players would be more than willing to put in an application suggesting how they'd like to organize a city or town along their lines, who they would allow in, how leadership would be chosen, etc. If that option was open, I'd do so right now without a thought. Let as few as three people organize the towns outside of ZK and WD. Let the admins select the leaders of WD and ZK, and use the Watch as WD's militia base, and the Zhentarim/Zhentilar as ZK's. Make it easier for people to run these things, and give them some real (if only RPed) power, and you will see more interesting things being done.

Edit - I also want to add that the Purple Sphere RP is specifically evil oriented and I look forward to its return. The admins have definitely heard us in regards to that, evils have been basically shut out of the game-wide RPs that have taken place, despite many of our desires to get involved in even peripheral ways. I'm really thankful they are opening this one up to us and I look forward to the next chapter in it.

[Dalvyn]

What prevent evils from vying for control in Zhentil Keep? Nothing. You want to change the rulership there? It's all fine. You just have to send in a application to let the imms more or less know what you plan to have happening. As you mentionned, there is a trend towards doing away with the auctioned characters, so this kind of application will most likely be accepted. I think no imm would have a problem with an established character taking control.

As for having control of a city, I feel that it's quite unfair to present it as a novel idea, or as something that the imm would not support before. Ask active Watch members like Gwain or Raona, and you'll see that most - if not all - of their ideas and requests were added to the areas of Waterdeep and/or the watch areas in a rather timely way. If you want things to change in ZK, send in ideas. Others did, and they were quickly coded. So stop presenting this somehow as a bias of imms against evil characters.

As for evils being left out of major imm-run roleplays, there are a few points that need to be made clear. First, it's always hard to include both good and evil in the same roleplay, because most of the time, it will just degenerated into a pkill feast. Second, there were never any deus ex machina/divine intervention to force evil out of a roleplay. The gem shard roleplay was cited as an example above. The theft of a shard was an evil twist that surprised me and delayed some plans, but I rolled with it. In the end, I had to perform some trick so the good would get the shard back because (1) the roleplay was stalled, and (2) what was once interesting (i.e., if you want the shard back, do this/pay us/give us this) had degenerated into an imbroglio of conflicting requests that nobody understood anymore.

[Aegir]

I... don't think its possible for me to agree more with Solaghar.

Way back when (before the coded law system came in) Zhentil Keep had their Sheriff and Magistrate positions filled by PCs. Today Sheriff can still technically be a PC position (through the Zhentarim), but I don't think theres actually been a PC Sheriff since the last one went inactive (Hi Schlem!).

The Waterdeep City Watch is sorta like this, as the leader of the organization would hold a considerable amount of power, but to my knowledge Waterdeep has never had anything along the lines of a PC Magistrate. Having it so individual cities could have actual PC leaders would be a great thing: if they have an auction or NPC char that leads it, fine: so far as FK is concerned, the PC can take over for them.

But yes, I think something like this would be a large step in the right direction, and would work well as part of the organization system.

[Nysan]

Hmm, so Dalvyn... If I read you right, an established character can apply to take control of a position of power and there will be little hassle over it? Pictures of small shrines appearing in one of the nameless villages around the realms and some otherwise bored priest claiming the village in the name of his...or her diety comes to mind.

[Solaghar]

What prevent evils from vying for control in Zhentil Keep? Nothing. You want to change the rulership there? It's all fine. You just have to send in a application to let the imms more or less know what you plan to have happening. As you mentionned, there is a trend towards doing away with the auctioned characters, so this kind of application will most likely be accepted. I think no imm would have a problem with an established character taking control.

I never meant to express that this is something the admins are against, but rather not something that is being actively promoted. I was never aware that our ability to take control of places in such a way would be given positive consideration.

As for having control of a city, I feel that it's quite unfair to present it as a novel idea, or as something that the imm would not support before. Ask active Watch members like Gwain or Raona, and you'll see that most - if not all - of their ideas and requests were added to the areas of Waterdeep and/or the watch areas in a rather timely way. If you want things to change in ZK, send in ideas. Others did, and they were quickly coded. So stop presenting this somehow as a bias of imms against evil characters.

I in no way meant this as an attack against the imms, or an intimation of bias in that sense. I think there is a difference between OOC ideas being implemented and having IC power. While Gwain and Raona might have that power OOC'ly to get things done, and I complement them on getting it done, they can't speak for Waterdeep itself. They can't interact with other cities on Waterdeep's behalf, though there are no other cities to interact with per se. The logical progression by my view should have been that Gwain or Raona should have taken a Waterdeep Lordship and gained that prestige and power themselves, and had much more of a free hand to organize the city as they liked, institute policies, etc.

As for evils being left out of major imm-run roleplays, there are a few points that need to be made clear. First, it's always hard to include both good and evil in the same roleplay, because most of the time, it will just degenerated into a pkill feast. Second, there were never any deus ex machina/divine intervention to force evil out of a roleplay. The gem shard roleplay was cited as an example above. The theft of a shard was an evil twist that surprised me and delayed some plans, but I rolled with it. In the end, I had to perform some trick so the good would get the shard back because (1) the roleplay was stalled, and (2) what was once interesting (i.e., if you want the shard back, do this/pay us/give us this) had degenerated into an imbroglio of conflicting requests that nobody understood anymore.

Sorry for the confusion, I never stated that evils were forced out of roleplays so much as it was made clear we weren't welcome, in my personal experience not once by the admins, but instead by the other players who were involved. I understand that that was simply the nature of those RPs. Just as in some RP to return Bane to life, I wouldn't expect good characters to be invited along. I do appreciate that this RP is being put together for us, as I noted in my original post.

I did not mean for, and I hope others did not take, my post to be an attack in any way, just an explanation of how things could be opened up and players given more options. Now that I know how accepting the admins will be to such an idea, I hope to put one together before I go to sleep.

[Nedylene]

I believe what he meant is that the staff is open to players taking initiative. For them to put their 'best foot foreward' and make this game their own.

I have avoided posting on this thread which is perhaps poor of me as my ultimate favorite character is a long time evil. I LOVE playing evil. I have very successfully carried out plots on the evil end and have left a mark (however not as ... public as those like Zarafae). I have never once met resistance from staff. In fact... I have often had staff enjoy watching the "drama" unfold.

Perhaps because of this I have always been of the mind of "If you want something to happen, do it yourself". There have even been people I have been speaking with and bouncing ideas with to try to plan an event in the future (not applied for yet, not fully thought through yet). I have also been asking in character to see if there is an interest for it. I never once in the time I thought "This would be cool" to the time where I thought "How will this be done" believed that I would have staff/imms against me. In fact I thought if I can plan this well, find out the interest that they would be happy to see such a thing. So needless to say (did I mention I talk to much) this entire discussion is a bit .. well.. WOW to me. .. .. And that reaction is why I have avoided saying such.

This is a game. It is a roleplay game. The staff, the immortals.. they do not dictate what happens here. We, the players do. The staff and immortals are here to ensure that nothing gets 'out of hand' that noone abuses the system and to ensure that everyone has a fair chance. And that means EVERYONE. Finding that balance is difficult. Not just for the staff but for the players. Right now we have more active "goodies" then we do "badies". That's fine. Evil rp is not for everyone. But I need to ask... Why are we here discussing the schematics of it all... when we can be using this energy, using these ideas and using this passion to bring changes to the game?

An action is worth a thousand words. I challenge everyone who posted on this thread to prove that statement. Try to change things before you try to give a discussion on why it is not working.

[Rhytania]

Sorry Dalvyn, I really dont mean to make it sound like a conspiracy. Maybe what I was shooting at was the main reason the gems never got back to the goodies becuase, and this is straight out of one of the players mouth who was extremely involved on the good side, 'Dalvyn wont let his RP get railroaded so even if we never get the gems back, he'll do something to get it back on track.'

Thats the mentality im talking about.

[Kregor]

"Getting it back on track" in an RP is something that is the propriety of the DM in a tabletop game, it's the same privilege, far as I'm concerned, for the immortal running an imm run RP.

A Dungeon Master has to think off the cuff lots of times, because players can never be predicted. For example, if your entire party ends up in a situation that results in TPD (total party death), unless you are a total arse of a DM, you don't just tear the character sheet of every player around the table and say "roll again, game over".... unless maybe every member of the party was doing something incredibly stupid to result in the TPD.

Little nudges here and there in a direction are typical, because in the end, it's the DM's world he's trying to preserve. You don't think for one minute that there wasn't nudging around Greenwood's table with the entire shape of the Forgotten Realms universe was being made in the hands of his campaign party? That's not partiality for good, or any one person in the party, that's an intention to preserve the game world's big picture. You're not going to be allowed to gang up and kill Cyric, for example, unless it's the DM's design to knock down Cyric in the game world.

To counter that with an argument of "Well, this is an MMO" is not really a complete story. This is not a MMORPG, it is not a WoW or Guild Wars slugfest. It's an RPIMud, an online game with the first influence and priority being roleplay, with code to back up the character and give substance to the actions he does, and measure the actual capability to do what he intends to roleplay.

In the end, it's still the DMs' world, and we're playing in it. Just like the gods would step in and nudge this way and that to preserve their view of the world, we should expect it to be done here.

[Lerytha]

There've been some crossed wires, here, and they've turned what was a constructive post into a rather tense one.

I don't think anyone was directly criticising the IMMs, merely the mentality that some people have. Nor (on the other side) do I believe the IMMs have ever been biased against evil characters. There are some roleplays that need to be finished because of time-restraints, which might account for the shard RP. In other roleplays, the evil characters will be able to effect things more. But in that instance, it is up to the IMM looking after the roleplay, because otherwise the overall plan for the roleplay ceases to be the plan they had (or even similar to the plan they had), and becomes instead a WHOLLY different event.

In tabletop, when you're all (mainly) friends around a table, with nachos and chips, and crisps, and chocolate, that's fine. The DM can clear his (or her) throat, pop to the bog, and use those few minutes to hastily think of how to run the roleplay in the different direction the players have taken it.

On the MUD, that is FAR more difficult, which means yes, there is less flexibility. But its not bias. DMing is difficult anyway. And when you're trying to do it online, remembering commands for the MUD, remembering grammar, remembering to check between different windows (etc), you sort of have to stick to a plan. I think its a testament to the willingness of our IMMs to let our players have the limelight, that the shard RP "derailment" lasted as long as it did.

That being said, I fully agree with Solaghar that having characters named to the position of a Lord of Waterdeep, etc, would be fantastic. So I'll just ask these questions:

1. Would applications for IC ranks be accepted?
2. What limits would be placed on those IC ranks? (no negotiation of treaties without ALL the Lords of Waterdeep agreeing, for example?)
3. Would it require a certain amount of kismet or glory?

I also fully agree that a MUD with Harper/Zhentarim/Shadow Thief interaction would be wonderful. Its a question of finding people willing to invest the time to bringing the organisations awake again, though.

Anyway... just some thoughts.

~Ol