New armour/combat code - questions, comments and bugs

[Dalvyn]

Dodge is included in the AC computation (though not shown in 'defence', because it sometimes applies, and sometimes it doesn't apply). Dodge as a "You completely avoid the blow, no matter whether it's from a stupid dummy or a dragon" is gone.

"Dodge" remains as one of the echoes meaning that an attack missed.

Hit rolls have been changed to be more like 3rd edition, in that the first attack is made at the normal "to hit" bonus; the second attack has a -5 penalty; the third attack, a -10; the fourth attack, a -15; and so on.

[Selveem]

Hit rolls have been changed to be more like 3rd edition, in that the first attack is made at the normal "to hit" bonus; the second attack has a -5 penalty; the third attack, a -10; the fourth attack, a -15; and so on.

But have hitroll increases based on class been added? I see myself hitting the first attack, but not the following thereafter. If the penalties are in, I think the bonuses based on class and level should be too. Otherwise, why have anything beyond 1 attack?

[Dalvyn]

Let me suggestion something.

Join up with other people and compare your hits with other characters directly (instead of comparing your defence through AIM or other means, do that in game);

Try something else than just always fighting the same old golem again and again and drawing conclusions from a few echoes.

[Kregor]

Oh.. wow.. this is making my brain hurt.. I'll just hope that people who love me will look at me and let me know if something I have is good to keep or not. I'm not sure how to RP getting something Identified and whether it will help or not...way too much to keep track of..Or maybe I'll just bug the heck out of Kregor.. HE love me... don't you Kreg?

I do, but I'm missing two days at a time of posts trying to make a house ready to sell in less than a month

Anyone in the market for a cute, cozy little 10 year old house in suburban metro Atlanta?

[Kregor]

Hit rolls have been changed to be more like 3rd edition, in that the first attack is made at the normal "to hit" bonus; the second attack has a -5 penalty; the third attack, a -10; the fourth attack, a -15; and so on.

Oh yeah, the BAB adjustments... I feel less jealous about that fifth attack now

Do take consideration as well... mobiles have the same BAB adjustments for their successive attacks in a round as well. So the penalties for successive hits are not putting you on any less a footing against a mobile than they are a PC.

[Selveem]

Do take consideration as well... mobiles have the same BAB adjustments for their successive attacks in a round as well. So the penalties for successive hits are not putting you on any less a footing against a mobile than they are a PC.

So.. what is the purpose of having skill levels in those then if even when you're GMed at those attacks they'll still miss a good portion of the time?

I'm not trying to be difficult here, but I think, if I'm not mistaken, this is a pretty big slap on the hand for warriors attempting melee..

Let me suggestion something.

Join up with other people and compare your hits with other characters directly (instead of comparing your defence through AIM or other means, do that in game);

Try something else than just always fighting the same old golem again and again and drawing conclusions from a few echoes.

I understand you're trying to be helpful here, Dalvyn, but please understand this is a very frustrating answer to swallow. I don't see code like Immortals do. Keep in mind you've essentially put a blindfold on the players by not allowing them to see actual numbers in anything as 'part of the mystery of the game.' I'm not that type of person. I'm what is called a fact-finder personality. If I don't know something I'm interested in, I seek to know it.

I'm trying to be polite. I just want a simple answer. I'll try to be more specific with my question: With the change in code to give penalties for each successive attack, have the bonuses based on class leveling been added? For instance, a warrior gets +20 BAB+Str mod (and others, like +hitroll on weapons, feats that increase the to-hit chance, etc..). I'm just interested in understanding if a wizard is getting the same base attack bonus as a fighter is..

Regarding your suggestion, I have actually. But, because I can't see code or breaks between rounds, it is very difficult to see how many attacks are attempted, how many are missing. There is a huge amount of scroll because of this. "A few echoes" hardly does justice to the amount of attempts I've made at dummies and other mobs. Yes, other mobs are easier to hit, but it still seems much more difficult to even take advantage of the attacks that are a basic 'feature' of my own class.

[Kregor]

So.. what is the purpose of having skill levels in those then if even when you're GMed at those attacks they'll still miss a good portion of the time?

The attack skills have never determined your success at making a hit with that attack, they determine the chance you have of actually getting that attack off in a round. If the % chance scores lower than your skill in the attack x 4, you get that attack.

Frankly, I digress here, I made the casual suggestion that we should also just do away with the "X attack" skills, and make the number of attacks you get dependent on your Base Attack Bonus, which is also D&D's way of doing it, and I'll reiterate it because I frankly think it makes more sense considering the rest of the combat system in place.

Since we penalize each successive attack in a round, having a skill to determine whether we get that extra attack or not now simply makes for a double penalty.

If calculated out, wizards would end up at level 50 with two attacks, rogues and clerics with 3 attacks, and warriors with 4. We could even opt to change the BAB divisor a little on fighters to give them that 5th if we wanted to diverge a little.

Regarding your bonuses, consider the base mechanic of d20: everything you do based on a roll of a 20-sided die and that roll has to beat a predetermined number. In the case of combat, that's the hit roll against the AC of the opponent. So...

If you set combat +power attack, you take a -4 penalty to hit for the extra damage.

By the time you hit fifth attack, your penalty to hit is -20. If you have tht feat above set, you are at -24.

Your BAB (Base Attack Bonus) as a fighter at level 50 is +20. So the penalties above take your total hit modifiers to -4. Add back 5 if you have a STR of 19, that's 1. Unless you have some other stuff to pump up your hitroll (bulls strength, a magic weapon, a +hitroll item, etc), You're pretty much a guaranteed not-hit on your fifth attack against that metal golem... which likely has an AC in the 20's somewhere. Even against something with an AC of 10, you would have to roll a 9 or better on your attack roll (a 60% chance).

The combat system is designed that way, each successive hit is supposed to be harder to make, and yes, most creatures will no longer be getting in that very last attack. It's designed to be an epic thing, to be able to get that many attacks in on someone, even at a really high level.

[Balek]

I would be in favor of doing one of two things with the current numbered attack skills. One option is that we could remove them entirely and make all attacks automatically occur in every round as Kregor suggests. Additionally we could make it so that a low or untrained skill level will negatively impact hitroll and a high skill level will positively affect hitroll. In either case, it makes sense now to uncouple attack frequency from skill levels so that we aren't doubly penalizing fighters.

[Kregor]

Technically, that would still be a double penalty, even if it translated to a penalty/bonus to hit, because it would stack atop the BAB penalty for the successive attacks built into the combat engine.

D20 makes it to where you get an additional attack per round for each +5 BAB you gain with your levels, which is why wizards and up with two (their max BAB is +10), clerics and rogues with 3 (BAB max +15) and warriors 4 (BAB Max +20). This BAB max also sets the classes apart in combat prowess; a rogue or cleric will never have as good a hit roll as a warrior of the same level, just like wizard will never have as good a hitroll as anyone else of the same level. Monsters without classes get their BAB max depending on what race type they are (and thus, this would naturally limit the num attacks they get in a round as well)

What I was saying about diverging, so that fighters could keep their "distinction" of having the fifth attack, is making a variance so that fighters get their attacks per +4 BAB, this would have them gaining their attacks slightly faster than other warrior classes, and ultimately with the extra attack when they reach BAB +20.

[Tempus]

Selveem - without giving you actual numbers, I can tell you that the aim of the modification to the combat code was to better reflect combat as described in the d20 srd. This means that your BAB depends on class, and on the 'number' of the attack, as described in said document.

Kregor has already detailed how the skills we have currently interact with the core rules, but this may be looked at in more detail once the current round of changes have bedded in.

One important principle of making changes to any system is to make them incrementally, and take time to observe the impact of those changes. If it is observed that, as a result of the recent changes, the balance of the game has been significantly altered then rest assured further changes will be made in an attempt to restore this balance.

(It might be worth pointing out that the changes also removed a bug which allowed enhancement bonuses on weapons to stack - e.g. wielding two swords with +2/+2 previously would give you +4/+4 to all attacks. Now the enhancement bonus only applies to attacks made with the enhanced weapon. This might account for a slight reduction in hit rate and damage inflicted, but allows the builder team to make more powerful individual weapons without having to worry about someone getting two of them and having the bonuses stack.)

[Mouat]

So, if when you type defence and get...


Body You can't be touched...


Does that I will not get any physical satisfaction anymore? Or I can't be hurt?



On a serious note, about the stacking of defensive spells, does it mean that if I cast armor, shield and stone skin and my defence rating doesn't go up from just casting armor and shield that I should not be casting stone skin to protect me against attacks?

Sorry if it was answered already, I just read a slew of posts and my brain is swiss cheese.

[Rawlys]

1) I've been noticing that when performing a suprise attack (when hidden) that I haven't been using my sneak attack skill. It treats it as a regular attack, therefore, the enemy has the opprotunity to parry the attack as they normally would.

I've tried it on a couple of different races in a couple of different areas, all with the same result. Now, if I'm paired up with someone else and fighting an NPC, sneak attacks happen (not real frequently, but they happen).

It really doesn't bother me, as long as I still have the backstab skill available.

2) With the skill of 'dodge' more in lines of D20, is it possible for the skill to directly affect that AC in regards to the higher level of dodge? IE: At inept, you might recieve a +1 to AC. At adepts, you might recieve a +4 to AC... That way, the skill could still be trainable and have a possitive result because of that.

3) Do shields have a max dex bonus to them?

4) On a slightly more selfish note, when the new combat system gets ironed out, could stat numbers (along with skills, AC, etc) be more visible to the player? Hehe... it's just a little frustrating to myself that I can't tell if I feel more nimble after wearing a ring on my finger or that because of the armour I'm wearing that I can't move around as well any more as I use to... just a few things like that I find 'challenging'.

5) Thanks for the new combat system and all the work that has went into it!

[Dalvyn]

1) I've been noticing that when performing a suprise attack (when hidden) that I haven't been using my sneak attack skill. It treats it as a regular attack, therefore, the enemy has the opprotunity to parry the attack as they normally would.

I've tried it on a couple of different races in a couple of different areas, all with the same result. Now, if I'm paired up with someone else and fighting an NPC, sneak attacks happen (not real frequently, but they happen).

It really doesn't bother me, as long as I still have the backstab skill available.

Sneak attacks when fighting an enemy that a friend of yours attacks too should only happen when you "flank" the enemy, that is, when the enemy stands between you and your friend. There is no "position" on FK though, so we approximated it by saying that, each time you and a friend attacks the same target, there is a given chance that you are actually flanking (and thus sneak-attacking). That is why sneak attacks only happen on some of your attacks and not all.

As for backstab, the command is still there, but I got confirmation that it does not do anything more than 'kill'; i.e., it simply initiates a fight.

2) With the skill of 'dodge' more in lines of D20, is it possible for the skill to directly affect that AC in regards to the higher level of dodge? IE: At inept, you might recieve a +1 to AC. At adepts, you might recieve a +4 to AC... That way, the skill could still be trainable and have a possitive result because of that.

The "dodge" of d20 is actually a feat, which gives you a +1 AC against ONE opponent.

That is more or less what we did with the dodge skill on FK. It grants you a random (but positive) AC bonus .. but since this bonus is random, it does not show in "defence".

3) Do shields have a max dex bonus to them?

No.

4) On a slightly more selfish note, when the new combat syst
em gets ironed out, could stat numbers (along with skills, AC, etc) be more visible to the player? Hehe... it's just a little frustrating to myself that I can't tell if I feel more nimble after wearing a ring on my finger or that because of the armour I'm wearing that I can't move around as well any more as I use to... just a few things like that I find 'challenging'.

That's another topic. I believe that there's another thread about it.

5) Thanks for the new combat system and all the work that has went into it!

You're welcome.

[Tobias]

I was curious but weapons with the +backstab enchantment. Does that go to count towards a sneak attack bonus now? since it goes towards the backstab skill level?

[Rawlys]

Dalvyn, thanks for the responses to my questions. I understand how a thief should be able to backstab an opponent if he flanks him (with another party member) but my main question/concern was that it doesn't seem that I am able to sneak attack someone in a 1v1 situation when hidden.

Maybe it's because the NPCs I'm going up against have the 'blind fight' feat and since that feat seems to have been given a slightly larger role in the new combat system, that makes it difficult to perform a sneak attack on them? *shrug*

And from what I can tell, the 'backstab' command still works as before, still dealing the same amount of dammage as before (or could be wishful thinking). It still acts as a suprise attack, not allowing the defender to parry the attack and if you miss, well then, the battle continues as normal.

Could be a bug or it could be the fact that I'm missing something. Oh! Two more questions I just thought about...

1) Are there any prerequisites to uncanny dodge and improved uncanny dodge? Does uncanny dodge get an upgrade at a certain level to imporved uncanny dodge?

2) In a normal combat situation, where it's a 2v1 scenario (or 3v1 or whatever), does the fact that an opponent is being flanked by one or two other people improve their chance at a hit (not including the thief class)?

[Vibius]

Does dual-wielding incur in a overall less chance to hit?

[Kregor]

Yes, dual wielding results in penalties to both your primary and offhand weapon, more on your offhand weapon, unless the offhand weapon is a light weapon.

[Tobias]

A few dual wielding feats like two weapon fighting/improved two weapon defense and such would fit nicely with the new system!

[Kirkus]

I got interested in the flanking bit a couple of posts up. What if we put in a command, flank, and this would allow all those nifty flanking bonuses like backstabbing and attack bonuses... hey that promotes grouping!

[Dalvyn]

1) Are there any prerequisites to uncanny dodge and improved uncanny dodge? Does uncanny dodge get an upgrade at a certain level to imporved uncanny dodge?

Barbarians and thieves get them automatically, though I forgot at what level. Check the level in d20 when they get them, and multiply it by 5/2, and you'll get the level in FK.

2) In a normal combat situation, where it's a 2v1 scenario (or 3v1 or whatever), does the fact that an opponent is being flanked by one or two other people improve their chance at a hit (not including the thief class)?

Nope, the number of opponents is not taken into consideration.

The implementation of sneak attacks was recently updated (it's still on the test port - this new code needs to be tested first, so keep your ears open for calls for testers if you are interested) so that both skills "backstab" and "circle stab" are used.

"Backstab" will be used when you "surprise" an opponent; that is, when you start the combat while your opponent does not see you. It should always generate a sneak attack.

"Backstab" will also be used when you attack an opponent that cannot see you. In this case though, all your attacks might not be sneak attacks (how many actually are depend on your skill).

"Circle stab" will be used when you and a friend both target the same opponent. Not all such attacks will be sneak attacks (it depends on your skill).

Both skills are thus kept and made useful.