[Brainstorm] Fighters

[Dalvyn]

Today's brainstorm question is this:

How to make fighters more interesting to play?

Considerations:

• A few possible options: make heavy armour useful (perhaps the real problem here is the free availability of the glory -> stat point exchange?), add feats? ...
• The goal is to enable fighters to do special "fighter things" while in a group, i.e., to provide the group with benefits that a fighter-less group wouldn't have.
• The goal is NOT to balance classes. We are using D&D. It's a group-based game, not a PvP game. Players can PvP 1-on-1, but that's not the focus of the game and it's not part of the main goals.

Brainstorm away ...

[Tobias]

I agree with all of what you said but what do you mean about free availability of glory exchange?

and Mmm. Maybe introduce a few skills or class abilities that would greatly enhance being a fighter and what not.

[Hviti]

Some suggestions:

If workable, giving fighters the guard skill discussed in:
http://www.gallwey.com/fk/board/viewtopic.php?t=6050
and
http://www.gallwey.com/fk/board/viewtop ... ight=guard
would be a nice difference and give them a few extras.

Nonmagical heavy armor isn't normally perceived as "useful" (damages easily, expensive to repair, and not as effective as lighter magical types); perhaps making its AC slightly higher would promote more of the bread and butter plate-girded fighters.

Heavy armor could also give an advantage to skills like bash, shove, and rescue. Reasons:
Bash: more/heavier armor = more weight when you slam into the fellow
Shove: same as bash
Rescue: If you're less worried about getting hit (wearing heavy plate) then you might be quicker to jump in front of another person.

[Selveem]

Note: These are different suggestions. I am not expecting all (or any, for that matter) to be applied. These are just things that I, having played fighters for well over 5K hours (not including my other characters), have noticed to be lacking in my opinion.

The guard suggestion is one I think highly of, but with the way armor code works you might as well have a ranger or priest do the rescuing. I don't think it should auto-rescue as this is easily abused. Simply to make the mob attack the fighter that is 'guard'ing the room. If more than one uses it, whichever is last to use it will override anyone else. There should be an echo to the effect of: So'n'so is guarding their party. Should only work when grouped. (This could make a temporary room flag until a direction command is issued or until guard is typed again by the same character. Mobs upon entering rooms would be affected by the room flag and if aggressive, should attack the fighter? I dunno, just trying to think of a way to code it).

Additional feats available to Fighters.

Change weapon focus so it only adds to hitroll. Weapon focus is required for weapon specializations.

Combat feats only trainable by fighters: greater weapon focus, superior weapon focus, weapon specialization, greater weapon specialization, superior weapon specialization.

Make great cleave more useful in "real" situations.

To that note, make heavy armor actually do something. Give it damage reduction and/or increase the max dex bonus on them so there's incentive to actually _wear_ them as a fighter.

If it hasn't been changed already, make each step of more protective armor harder to damage. Cloth should scrap as easily as it does. Heavy armor should be very difficult to destroy.

Lower penalties on attacks back to skill level. Reason: What's the use of having a fifth attack if it's destined to always miss.

Change disarm so that either an opponent retrieving his weapon is treated as having no dex bonus (they're prone) and take an attack of opportunity or simply remove the attack of opportunity when attempting to disarm someone.

Increase skill-up rate of grip.

Increase skill-up rate for dual wield (applies to all).

Add bleed damage for melee or allow limbs to be damaged (and eventually severed) as normal during spars (one of the greater reasons why melee classes get OWNED in duels). I know this will be considered "PvP" but I felt it should be mentioned.

Increase magic affects for heavier armor. Wizards need only three items that make them pretty much immune to whatever they want whenever they want it. Fighters have nothing of that sort. Instead have to 'twink' and 'rainbow match' (as I think it was called in another thread) to get any form of resistances that are even 'decent.'

Increase availability for enchants on weapons. Not just to add damage or chance to hit, but affects.

[Rawlys]

The glory to stat point conversion is a good thing, in my opinion. I don't think it's a detriment to any classes, all though, it is a bit odd to see a wizard who can carry over 300 pounds and still burn your butt with a fireball.

With the limmitation of trainers who are able to train anyone up to a stat level of 20 (and even then, difficult to find out without the 'inside know how'), there really isn't a worry about excessive stats that would make one class more/less valuable than another.

I would like to see things more equivalent to the actual D20 system, with combat feats being more available for fighters. Some of the skills that we currently have in FK are actually feats in D20... I like the way we can gradually improve on our skills and would like to keep that same type of system, but have feats be feats. Much like this:

1) Spend a feat point to learn a feat
2) Train up that feat to become more proficient in it (not all feats, just certain ones)

For fighters:

1) Gain an extra combat feat point every two to three levels, only usable in a special combat feat list.
2) They would also still gain feat points as they normally would, to be used either for combat purposes or more regular things

The addition of a combat feat list would be simular to what is available in D20, such as:
-Combat Reflexes
-Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
-Greater Weapon Focus
-Weapon Specialization
-Greater Weapon Specialization

Of course, there are quite a few more to be added to the list and some of those would be very difficult to obtain, but such is life. While some of those wouldn't be very beneficial with our current code, I believe they could become beneficial with the introduction of attacks of opprotunity.

Over all, this isn't about balancing out every class. It's about making fighters be good at what they do, with the possibility of having them become very good at it. Wether that's a PVP situation or helping out a group in the UM, it doesn't matter. The benefit to a group will come with how the fighter RPs the situation and how the group reacts to it.

[Mele]

Something little I'd REALLY like to see, is for fighters to become a "tank" class over a fighter. What I mean by this is...

RESCUE.

Rangers and Priests get rescue as well. The most ANNOYING thing I've ever seen is a priest rescuing a fighter. Or even a ranger in their little ranger leathers rescuing a tin can fighter. I'd like to think the fighter with the higher CON than Priests, and better armour than rangers would logically be the ones tanking, and rescuing.

Ranger - a warrior class that specializes in ranged attacks.
Priest - a healer / buffer with melee capabilities.

I'd love to see rescue becoming a skill either made only available to fighters, or impossible to use on fighters or something.

[Vibius]

This is may be tricky because feats that make the fighter more powerful (weapon specialization, greater weapon specialization, Improved Shield Bash) doesn't necessarily make it more interesting since does what has been doing but simply better.

Also a problem I think exists in FK is that fighters have lost "their mojo", the trademark of fighters in D&D is the huge number of feats they get in comparison with other classes, and also some of the feats that exist in D&D are skills meaning that classes less-intensive in feats have even more feats to spend making the perhaps most attractive quality of fighters obsolete.

[crazy idea warning]

But perhaps if we can't to differentiate fighters from other classes, perhaps we can differentiate other classes from fighters, perhaps it could be possible turning the ranger in a 3.5 ranger meaning that his hit dice would be reduced to D8 (and fighters would be the only class with D10), and giving the ranger a rangerish compensation as in 3.5 (several racial enemies as more levels more bonus against those races, Animal companion and being able to hide everywhere)

[/crazy idea warning]

If we combine this with some fighter-only feats, perhaps they will more interesting to play (specially if we mix it with eventual fighter/martial RP)

As a final note I will say that Full plate + low dex > leather armor + HIGH dex: (8AC+1DEX)>(2AC+6DEX), and you have plenty of stat points to allocate elsewhere (STR or CON).

[EDIT][Even more crazy idea warning]

In D&D you have to think carefully where you put your stats points and and feats since they are very limited, in FK because the generous number of feats and stats points you can have classes which are not STR-CON-DEX intensive with high values on these stats, effectively overlapping the area of work of other classes since suddenly they have an awesome AC bonus or loads of HP. By adopting the feat/stat points system of D&D the fighter would shine again since others classes would be very busy assigning their stats points and feats to things that really matter.

[Selveem]

Being a "tank" doesn't make a fighter interesting. It makes them boring. This is my opinion. The wonderful thing about fighters, regardless, is their ability to CHOOSE their own fate. You want to be a great tank? Get Heavy Armor optimization. You want to be a good melee powerhouse, you take weapon focus and specialization feats.

Please, oh God please, do not make fighters useless beyond absorbing damage..

You want a real tank, you make a priest. They get damage reduction spells, heavy armor, buffs, and deterrants. The difference in HP, 2 hp/level, is negligible in comparison. Especially when they can heal themselves easier than healing others.

[Mele]

Not what I meant. But nevermind. I'm not really wanting to have opinions argued about.

[Selveem]

Not what I meant. But nevermind. I'm not really wanting to have opinions argued about.

Perhaps I misunderstood your post then. If so, I sincerely do apologize.

I thought the first part was one idea, the next was another. I'm mistaken?

[Orplar]

I think everything above would be great.

More feats, make heavier armor abit more worth wearing, more skills.
I think that wielding a two handed weapon could use an overhaul too, not sure what the bonus's are if any, in comparison to a shield and weapon for +ac and dual wield for the extra attacks.

I think the 'tank' option would be useful too, depending on the characters rp.

[Nedylene]

I would love fighters to GUARD other characters. So that when someone or some mob tried to attack them they would intercept the attack and take it themselves so that they could actually be a full bodyguard type.

[Tobias]

I think heavier armour and materials such as steel and such should be harder to damage or make it lest costly to repair them. A fighter in full plate that gets his armour damaged is looking about twenty platinum per piece to fix or even more..so a platemailed fighter could go up having to spend a hundred + to repair all his armour ;;

[Dalvyn]

I agree with all of what you said but what do you mean about free availability of glory exchange?

What I meant about the glory exchange was that everybody can/could get very high stats. As a particular case, everybody can get high Dex. That makes heavy armour less interesting.

If you have to carefully balance your stat points to increase EITHER your Strength OR your Dex OR your Constitution OR your Wisdom OR your Charisma, you need to "sacrifice" some stats. If you choose to "sacrifice" Dexterity, then heavy armour becomes a valid choice again.

Considerations:

I forgot one consideration in my initial post above ...

• Make is that the improved fighter is "a more interesting character to play" not in the sense that he's now able to SOLO more things, but in the sense that he is more useful/required/necessary in a group.

That actually might be fine-tuned either by not giving the fighter an increase in offense, or by compensing an increase in offense with some other negative (e.g., more hit points, but loses the ability to heal on their own).

Actually, that makes me think that perhaps removing the ability to heal naturally from everybody would be nice. And that would allow us to add in a new "meditative" state that would offer regeneration in both hit and move (and fighters would have it). That might actually incite fighters to take breaks/"meditate" along with other characters. Maybe add to that a higher cost in move points to physical attacks (perhaps with another skill to reduce that cost, available to fighters), and we have plenty of options to fine-tune.

Heavy armour as damage reduction

The idea might seem to be good at first, but in practice, that system sucks, really sucks. That is actually what we had before.

It meant that low-damage creatures had no chance at all to damage creates in heavy armour. That includes fist-fighting creatures or even dagger-wielding opponents. When you deal 1d3 or 1d4 as base damage, and you face an opponent with a damage reduction of 2 or 3 ... you might as well stop fighting and flee.

Maybe ... just maybe ... a more complex system of damage reduction might work. Something with a minimum damage value. For example, damage reduction 5/3 meaning that the armor would absorb 3 points of damage, but only if the reduced value is higher than 5. Hits from fists or dagger would most likely not be absorbed (they found holes in the armour), while hits from long swords might be partially [always partially] absorbed.

[Selveem]

That actually might be fine-tuned either by not giving the fighter an increase in offense, or by compensing an increase in offense with some other negative (e.g., more hit points, but loses the ability to heal on their own).

Could you explain what you had in mind, more?

[Dalvyn]

I simply meant that the goal was not to just make fighters more powerful in the sense that they would be able to solo more easily, but rather to make them more interesting/useful.

[Grafghur]

Well as it stands heavy armor needs some tweaking to make it useful. (Though Dalvyn, really not sure how much damage you really can do with fists against a full plate armor, you're more likely to hurt yourself first)

I'm all for making the fighter more interesting and unique. After all, I always hated the fact that you would start as a fighter so you can eventually become a ranger or paladin.. a figher +

[Tavik]

Just a few suggestions I thought I would throw out:

Add a taunt skill. This wouldn't work like a traditional taunt (rescue), rather it would throw their enemy into a 'rage' of sorts wherein that enemy loses any dex bonus they might have and gives any rogues grouped with the fighter a bonus to sneak attack (flanking).

Add a martyr feat/combat mode. If the feat is taken and the mode is on, upon reaching 0% health, the fighter regains 20% health and a +3 to hit and attack rolls. The rest of the group is disengaged from combat (allowing them to flee). The bonuses gained should give the fighter a good chance to fell their opponent, but upon doing so, the fighter also dies, or is just killed from losing the extra 20% health. Either way, the fighter dies, but it would add to RP and allow them to help a group take out some really nasty opponents.

Add a sharpen skill. This would allow a fighter to sharpen any bladed weapon giving it a temporary +1 to attack (the edge wears off after a set number of hits dependent on skill level). This would be usable only a certain number of times a day and require a semi-expensive whetstone that disappears after a certain number of uses.

Add a second weapon defense feat/combat mode. Basically, the fighter learns to use his offhand weapon underhand and as a shield. It would apply a low level shield value to the fighter's AC AND still allow the fighter to use that weapon to attack, but would also incur a -2 to hit on that weapon. This would be good for the fighter that wants to play the group's "meat shield" while still allowing him some offensive value.

Give all fighters an automatic intimidate affect wherein if the fighter scores at least three critical hits on a target, the last of which kills that target, all other hostile creatures in the room must make a very hefty will save or flee in terror. This is not only functional, it's fun! "Nothing says 'Run like hell' more than a big dude gibbing the guy next to you."


I haven't played a fighter in quite some time, so I don't know if any of those would be helpful or not, but there you go. And don't try to look those up in your PHB, I made them all up.

[Orplar]

I like you.

[Grafghur]

Great ideas Tavik, though my thoughts are even though skills would be a much welcomed addition, it still doesn't make heavy armor an attractive choice to use.