[Brainstorm Copycat!] Wizards

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[Brainstorm Copycat!] Wizards

Post by Enig » Mon Jan 28, 2008 7:47 pm

Good morning/afternoon/evening!

This line of thought was mostly sparked by debate on fighters going on in the general discussion forum but seeing as it doesn't exactly relate to fighters I thought it warranted its own section. Actually, the thread deals with wizards, as per the title.

As the situation currently stands, I think that the process in which a wizard memorizes and prepares their spells may be causing a bit of a problem. All it takes is a very short period of time to swap out a spell or two, or even radically alter an entire array of memorized magic. Besides effectively reducing the advantage of being a specialist wizard (and reducing the value of bonus spell slots in general), this lends wizards a large amount of versatility that they really shouldn't have. In fact, FK wizards are sort of like a weird blend of traditional wizards and sorcerers with all the advantages of both, since they can scribe as many spells as they want from scrolls but can also effectively rearrange their spellbooks mid-adventure.

The level of versatility this opens up to wizards also seems to be cutting back on the usefulness of other classes, as is evidenced in the fighter's brainstorming thread. I honestly had no idea that there were wizards going around tanking things better than fighters but if that *is* the case then perhaps the spells responsible for wizards acting in that capacity ought to be made weaker, or the appropriate spell components altered to something more expensive. While the components for stone skin and etc. are already moderately costly, it's fairly evident that they don't come close to reaching the cost of plate, which has me pretty much floored. However, spell component cost has its own thread, so I won't digress into that here.

Besides hopefully sparking some debate and friendly discussion, I had a few ideas of my own about how this situation might be resolved, so I'm going to introduce them here in a handy, numbered format :)


1) Fun new memorization code

I've no idea what kind of a chore this would be to code, but here it is anyways. The process of selecting spells and arranging your spellbook would stay the same, what would be different here is the function of the memorize command. Instead of having your spells prepared one at a time it would prepare them all at once, but with a much heftier cost in IC time. Something like twelve hours, which would work out to about an hour IRL, unless I'm grossly mistaken. This amount of time seems both feasible from a gameplay perspective, but is still typically too long for people to just sit down and wait for, especially if they're camping out in the middle of a hostile camp of whatever monsters are currently in season.

2) Removing the meditation skill

This idea is a pretty simple one, really, and I'm afraid it probably won't earn me many fans in the wizard community (though I'll go on record that my only PC is a wizard, too, and that might help :P). The skill sort of reminds me of the old enhanced damage, insofar as I've never heard of anything like this in any other FR-themed place, though I'm hardly an authority on the subject. That said, it's the principle reason that spellcasters are able to turn over their spells on a dime, as it were, and I'm hoping its removal would encourage people to generally ration their spells more closely.

3) Enhanced Spell Failure

I do like the idea of casters being unable to cast spells and attack at the same time, which strikes me as being a bit silly. As an added bonus I'd suggest that being attacked, even if the attack does no damage (ie. absorbed by stoneskin/armour), might nonetheless botch up spells in progress and cause spell failure.


Anyways, that's the lot of it, really. Thanks for your time and patience in reading all the way down here. Naturally I'm out looking for a debate on the subject, so if any of you want to add something, be it negative, positive, or neutral, about these ideas or any of your own, please feel free! (Though I wouldn't suggest posting just to bash your own ideas. It really seems rather silly :P)
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Post by Selveem » Mon Jan 28, 2008 8:31 pm

Prestidigitation! :)

It would be nice, even for a short amount of time, to be able to have this as an RP spell. It could change coins to look like other coins, but this would be abused severely I believe. I think it'd be better to be able to RP using this spell.
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Post by Elenthis » Mon Jan 28, 2008 8:43 pm

I've alwats wanted prestedigitation. That being said, here are my thoughts:

I DONT think meditate should be removed, but I think it could be scaled down a bit. Here's how I'd like to see the memorization system improved (And I dont THINK it would be too hard to improve the existing code...)

Keep what we have, except the following:
*Slow down meditation by about 50%. Meditation would be mostly for last-minute spellchanges after you "COMMIT" to your mem'ed spells.

*Once per day (in-game) you can use memorise as it is now to choose the spells you want to have available. IE: if you can mem 50 spells, you prep 50 spells, but none are castable yet. Then you enter the command "Commit" COMMIT would lock in all of those spells and INSTANTLY prepare them all. After commiting you must wait 24 hours in-game before being able to use commit again.

*Meditate works like normal. If you wanted to swap out spells, you can, but it takes much longer.

*Commited combat spells would recharge relatively quickly, while all non-combat and non-commited spells would recharge relatively slowly.

****As a variation, It would be interesting if non-commited spells used components %150 faster while commited spells used them %25 slower.
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Post by Elenthis » Mon Jan 28, 2008 8:51 pm

Addendum:

I realise that one of the major wizardy topics has been specializing. I have thoughts on that too. First: Because of the current code GENERAL USE wizards (mages) are superior by far, but not in all cases. Certainly in general situations. But in specialised situations, those specialist wizards excell. That being said, I do have some tweaks that I think might help a little.

*For every Specialist class, there is a single spell unattainable by any other class. Something permanent, expensive, draining, and powerful. I have some ideas for examples, but I havent considered them for balancing yet, so I'll hold them.

*Bearing in mind my previous post on "Commit" specialist wizards would regain in-school spells 150% faster, combat or not. (and use components another 25% slower for commited in-school spells if using the variation)

The end....for now!
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Post by Caelyvar » Mon Jan 28, 2008 8:59 pm

I really like the idea of scaling down meditate. Just because it takes TIME to memorize spells. Frankly I see wizards and priests of all stripes sitting in a group and hanging out and talking quietly. That is not meditation.

Either scale it back or dont allow it in any sort of noisy situation. If someone is talking its DISTRACTING. I meditate IRL and honestly you need full concentration. Now think about meditating and reading magic words at the same time. This is probably very hard work.

Now I imagine this is offset by high int or wis or even con but thats just my two cents

The other thing I would like to put out there, at high levels Wizards should be FEARED. They have awesome powers that mere mortals should quake at, and I am fine with that

But why is it that I see quite a few high level wizards who have their spells all grandmastered and I have played my fighter who still hasnt GM'ed her primary weapon. In fact her ONLY weapon.

Now yes, spellcasters have MORE spells so it should be easy to learn them and master them. But umm. . .why is it a mage can disintigrate ME with a grandmastered Disintigrate when I cant hit him with a GM'ed longsword.

I should be able to learn my weapon as fast as a wizard or priest learns his spell. I use my weapon MORE than they use any given spell, but it has taken me over a year OOC to even PEAK at GM'ing a weapon.

I dont want to sound like I am complaining, but I see a real balance issue between wizards and fighters.

I also admit I have no Wizard PC anymore and so I dont mean to offend, but I really wanted to put forth my oppinion on this matter.
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Post by Elenthis » Mon Jan 28, 2008 9:08 pm

Well...I can only assume that in-part wizards GM spells and skills faster because of the HUGE gap in wisdom, int, and charisma. Generally speaking (GENERALLY SPEAKING) those 3 stats are dump-stats for fighters. I dont think that wizards should GM skills OR spells fast, and I can tell you that I only have ONE spell GM'ed, and very few higher that journeyman. I've got well over 1300 hours on my wiz.

Lastly...The fighter vs. Wizard scenario... Well...balance issues asside, heres the equation.

Fighter swings a steel sword at wizard. Wizard has spells that make his skin like stone. No matter how good that fighter is, a steel sword on a stone isnt going to do a whole lot, if anything.
-Wizard's turn-
Wizard bends time, space, and the laws of the universe to bring about a monumental distructive power, matched and exceeded only by the potiential of divine intervention, and aims it at fighter. Fighter is wearing steel platemail.

If it is broken down in those terms, I dont think the balance issue is really all there. This is a RP-enforced game about RP, and insofar as I can tell, the RP is there.
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Post by Caelyvar » Mon Jan 28, 2008 9:11 pm

can only assume that in-part wizards GM spells and skills faster because of the HUGE gap in wisdom, int, and charisma.
I think he just called me dumb AND ugly!!!!

At least I think he did, I should check with the other fighters first

*grins*
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Post by Selveem » Mon Jan 28, 2008 9:19 pm

See! Imbalance. Wizards now have a God complex! *ducks*
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Post by Elenthis » Mon Jan 28, 2008 9:23 pm

ok, ok, ok. So I was a little...flowery with the definition. None the less, I think my original "balacing/interesting" suggests at least merit conversation :-)

I look forward to a brutal picking apart later for my descriptions of fighter vs wizard.
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Post by Solaghar » Mon Jan 28, 2008 10:31 pm

A well-prepared wizard will never be able to be defeated by a fighter, and in fact shouldn't be. As Dalvyn points out truthfully, the classes are not balanced for PKill versus one another. The powers and protections a wizard can bring to bear far exceed anything that a fighter can do by design.

One thing I'd support is an inability to do anything while meditating. You don't see anything, you don't hear anything, you can't interact... much like sleeping is now. Right now people do simply talk through meditations, keep all their armor on, etc. It might also be taken that there are two degrees of meditation. The first is a sort of preliminary state, and after being in this for a little while, you'd enter a deep meditative state, which would be what our current meditate is. While in a deep meditative state, if you smoted or spoke, you'd be shifted back down to the preliminary state and have to work your way up again. A similar thing might be done for other people in the room speaking or smoting, their actions have a chance to break you out of your meditative trance. Hence meditation would generally be something you'd do in private, and hopefully not in the middle of adventuring unless it was absolutely necessary, such as a mage who had basically depleted all of their spells.
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Post by Enig » Mon Jan 28, 2008 10:33 pm

Hey, you fighters, stay in your own thread! :P

Or, in other words...

Perhaps I over-emphasised fighters in my explanation about what the catalyst was for my post here but nonetheless I think that any issues directly relating to wizards vs. fighters or wizards vs. rogues, or wizards vs. street sweepers ought to be shelfed off to a different thread. It's a subject all to itself and trying to mix it with this one wouldn't be doing justice to either of them.

Prestidigitation is the spell that's used for cantrips and minor magic tricks, right? It seems pretty neat to me, too, but probably would be best put by itself in the suggestions forum.

Anyways, let's hear some more great observations from people who play wizards and people who interact with them! Though for the purposes of this thread, I think we should try and keep on topic of the wizard class, what would make it more fun to play and would facilitate interactivity between other wizardly and non-wizardly PCs.
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Post by Tavik » Mon Jan 28, 2008 11:46 pm

I think that's pretty accurate Elenthis. In DnD, if a level 20 wizards wants to kill you and you're a fighter, you pretty much just start swinging and pray he didn't put anything into concentration, then you die. Now, on FK, obviously things need to be a bit more balanced. However, I do NOT think that wizards and fighters and rogues and priests should all be an equal match for each other at equal levels. Each class excels at something and at the same time is terrible at something else. Fighters fight. Wizards don't. In a no magic fight, the wizard loses to the fighter ever time. In a magic fight, the fighter loses (though the fighter can interrupt a wizard and gain an advantage there). Read any FR book. You don't mess with wizards, or they mess you up. The difference between FR and FK: numbers. In FR wizards are a VAST minority. In Fk, they are fairly prevalent. Now there are three options to remedy this.

1) Make it REALLY hard to make a wizard. After all, wizards in FR only become powerful after years upon years upon years of study. Many kill themselves off in failed spells. In FK though...This is a bad option. We still want wizards around, don't we?

2) Drop their power. This makes a little more sense, but it's still not the greatest. Sure, it evens the playing field in PvP, but what happens when your group NEEDS that disintegrate spell? Someone describe wizards in another thread as bombers. I think this is pretty accurate. When you need a boom, call a wizard.

3) Accept them as they are. FK does not revolve around PvP. It revolves around group play. Wizards SHOULD be more of a support class. Bulls strength doesn't do much at all for a wizard. Why do they have it? To make the big guy bigger!

Personally, I like option 3. Not because I want to run around and put all fighters to shame, but because I like playing a highly effective support class. I haven't played a fighter in a long time, so I don't know how bad off they are, but I can tell you that from my experience, they aren't taking advantage of the benefits wizards can offer them... I play, almost exclusively, wizards and it has been a LONG time since any fighter or ranger or rogue has sought me out for enhancing spells. I think some players have lost sight of the support aspect of wizards and focus solely on the offensive aspect. The way I look at it is, can my wizard deal out a ton of damage? Yes. Can my wizard make many OTHER people deal out even MORE damage? Yes. Which one benefits more people?
Frankly I see wizards and priests of all stripes sitting in a group and hanging out and talking quietly. That is not meditation.
You're right Caelyvar. In reality, you shouldn't be talking or anything while meditating and for a very long time in FK you couldn't. It was intentionally changed to allow wizards and priests and such to RP while they were waiting for the meditation to do it's job. Before, you had to plop down and start meditating and just sit there. You couldn't respond to anyone, you couldn't add to a discussion, you just sat. Is that realistic? Yep. Is it fun and beneficial to RP? Nope.
But why is it that I see quite a few high level wizards who have their spells all grandmastered and I have played my fighter who still hasnt GM'ed her primary weapon. In fact her ONLY weapon.
If it makes you feel better, my lvl 50 wizard has almost 1500 hours and hasn't GM'd any spells at all.

Summed up, I think a lot of this problem will be fixed if more wizards embrace the support side of their capabilities. This whole aspect is almost completely ignored as far as I can see.
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Post by Velius » Tue Jan 29, 2008 12:26 am

Tavik wrote:3) Accept them as they are. FK does not revolve around PvP. It revolves around group play. Wizards SHOULD be more of a support class.
FK does revolve around combat though. All RP revolves around combat in some way, and if a wizard can take upon the role of a fighter, they are taking the fighters RP away.

Yes, this MUD should revolve more around group play, but with the way wizards are, we can't accept them as they are. First off, where does the fighter fit in in this group play? Wizards out-damage them, and apparently they can tank better than them now.

A few suggestions? Keep the wizards in as the 'bombers', but at the same time, find a way to prevent them from being one-man armies.

Sorry if I derailed a bit on this post, and really sorry about all the comparisons to fighter class.
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Post by Elenthis » Tue Jan 29, 2008 12:36 am

In this post we REALLY need to put some effort on NOT derailing. Its clear that we've hit a nerve. Perhapse someone should start a different thread for fighters vs wizards or something if its a subject people feel strongly about.

Main subject: I was giving some throught to something Tavik said. I know Wizard is one of the main 4 classes, but maybe a low kismet cost wouldnt be such a bad idea. What do you guys think along those lines? (And the generally un-commented upon ideas of the first few posts).
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Post by Jaenoic » Tue Jan 29, 2008 12:42 am

I don't believe that lowering the power of any class is ever a good idea. Increasing the time it takes to memorize a spell with meditate accomplishes what... Making people wait more? That's not fun. Being able to memorize once per day? Well then the wizard is worthless after he spits out all his spells. It's not like DnD where you can rest and magically pass over 8 or 16 hours. Making components disappear faster only makes wizards poorer. That's not fun at all.

I'm of the mindset that wizards have received a lot of attention codewise lately, and they're fine the way they are. Other classes like fighters and rogues need the tweaking a lot more.
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Post by Tavik » Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:16 am

To clarify a few things I said and get this back on track: First off, I was not implying FK doesn't revolve around combat we all know that to be the case code wise. What I said was that it doesn't revolve around PvP. The vast majority of what we do is group with others and kill mobs.

I don't think I made it real clear what I meant by support in my previous post. When you think of a military, artillery is support, gunships are support, even machine guns are support. They all, in some way, augment and improve the effectiveness of the infantry. I see wizards in this role. THAT was the point I was trying to make. Feel free to disagree with me, but I've ALWAYS seen wizards as a supporting class, not a main attack class. I think that trying to push in that direction is going to make wizards more interesting. The fact that wizards nowadays have gone to become almost literal tanks I think is simply due to a lack of thought put into what a wizard really should be doing. Now, please note, this is not a derogatory comment to those who've been doing this. I think it just happens. I don't think people are intentionally trying to become "the chosen one" with their wizards. Anyway, what I was trying to propose was a movement to make wizards more apt to take on a support role and less of a giant gun role.

How do we do this? Well...One of the things we can do is to promote more apprentice/master RPs. Right now, I don't see them hardly at all. My wizard has had three apprentices in the four years I've had him. Is the apprentice RP seen as a hassle? If so, what can we do to improve it? I think that if more first time wizards had that RP, they could be instructed better as to how to do more than just blast things.

As for Elenthis' comment, I actually wouldn't be opposed to a kismet cost. Rogues already have a kismet requirement (though for different reasons), so I don't see why we can't put one on wizards. They aren't the easiest class to start this mud with anyway.

Hopefully that cleared things up. If not, sorry.
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Post by Velius » Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:24 am

GAH! Even more kismet requirements...

No, please don't. That'll only kill off new players. Wizard is a popular beginning choice for new players, and it'd suck if you had to be stuck playing a class you really don't want to play (You wouldn't be able to play thiefs or wizards if that was the case).
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Post by Enig » Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:29 am

Velius: I wouldn't worry about mentioning fighters, really, and I happen to agree with you, so you won't hear anything negative from me, at least :) I also agree with Elenthis, though, and another thread to discuss the subject would take the heat off both the brainstorming sessions for wizards and for fighters. Instead of debating whether or not wizards can tank *better* than fighters, I think we should look just at wizards and ask ourselves, "Can they tank better than they ought to?". Other classes are an easy thing to point to as a comparison but it tends to be like throwing an umber hulk into a crowd of Tempurians; angry and confused :P

Jaenoic: Instead of making them wait I'm hoping it would make people think more carefully about the spells they're memorizing. Do they really need that identify, or should they prepare another lightning bolt? Should they machine gun fireballs at those zombies, or should they dig into their pouches and get some holy water grenades? Stuff like that breaks up the monotony of just frying another goblin/ogre/etc, and makes adventuring fun (from my perspective). As for being useless when they run out of spells, well, that's the life of a wizard. But even in that extreme case they can still contribute codely by stabbing at things if they're in range, or shooting with a bow/sling/crossbow. And of course they can always contribute to an adventure via RP, which is fun as can be.

As an aside, this might even make scrolls more valuable, too. Wizards might feel compelled to carry some for their utility spells if they knew they wouldn't be able to just prepare them on the fly.

Tavik: As it stands a wizard can both support their group and be the main attacking force. Just cast your buff spells, forget them, and rememorize attack spells in their place. I'd hazard a guess that this is one of the reasons us wizards (and I'm guilty of this too!) are often running around zapping everything in reach like lightning was going out of style. Not that there's anything wrong with that kind of thing if that's your style, but I think that it should come with a cost in terms of utility.

About the kismet cost, though, I don't really agree. Of course, I don't know about the rogue kismet cost, either, but I think it was put there to prevent people abusing steal or somesuch, yes? I'm not really sure what we're encouraging with it, but it sounds to me something like 'Make a throw away character and play it for a bit before you make your *real* character', and I don't know that we ought to be encouraging that.
Last edited by Enig on Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:37 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Elenthis » Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:34 am

That may be, but can we all agree that wizards ARENT an easy class to start with? I mean...just talking in the sense of code alone, wizards have about 20 helpfiles more than fighters that you HAVE to read to be effective. Granted, however, priests are at about the same level. I retract my previous reccomendation that kismet costs should apply to wizards.

Jaenoic. I may not have stated the entirity of the idea clearly, but the end result wouldnt be fewer prepared spells at ANY given time. It would, instead, be more like a "choose your spells for today and stick to them" idea. Choose your "role" for the day. Enchanter? Buffer? Nuker? Maybe...protector?

If you want to get moe clarification, you need only to ask.
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Post by Dalvyn » Tue Jan 29, 2008 5:32 am

Re: talking while meditating

I actually (surprise, surprise ...) disagree with you, Chris. :) I think that it's really great that wizards can talk and smote while meditating; it's something I remember we had to battle hard to get (quite some time ago). Why? Because, simply, it's not fun to be stuck in front of a frozen screen. The same could be said for trade lag or - in a smaller measure - travel lag [I add "in a smaller measure" because really, travel lag is not that bad]. More to the point, going back to a system where wizards are stuck in front of a screen without any ability to interact with others for an extended period of time is a bad move, in my opinion. The number 1 activity of this game should still be interaction with others ...

Re: PvP, wizards vs fighters

*yawn* *blink* Oh yes...

Re: Enig's initial ideas

I think it's an interesting idea to increase the time needed to refresh spellcasters' spells. When I first read your post, a few "yes but" comments sprang to my mind:
  • Yes, but ... it's going to be really really booooooring at low level. If we make Mr Newbie sit for 12 in-game hours = 1 RL hour before he gets back his two "magic missile" ready, then we won't keep Mr Newbie around for a long time.
  • Yes, but ... then what do wizards once they are out of spells? I don't bother too much about clerics: they can still fight some, but what about wizards?
  • Yes, but ... let's not just simply increase meditation time and/or force them to a reduced state of activity for an extended period of time.
Point 3 is easy solved: remove meditation as a "position" to speed up spell recovery and use insta-refresh/reset of all spells happening now and then. Therefore, no need for a "meditation" state, only for some sort of "timer" that would indicate how much time is left before the spells are refreshed. Let also this timer be expressed both in RL and in in-game time, and let it run even while offline (i.e., if you log off then log back in, your spells are not magically regenerated, but if you log off for a long enough time, when you log back in, your spells are back).

That would mean that we would need to actually have 2 lists of memorized spells: the current list (where spells can be ready or cast), and the new list (which will become the current list when the timer reaches 0). The only effect you can have on the "current list" is to change ready spells into cast spells ... by casting them. As for the "new list", you can add in spell and remove them (just as what you currently do with the 'mem' function).

When the timer reaches 0, the current list is forgotten and replaced with a copy of the new list, with all spells set as "ready to be cast". Then you can modify the (new) "new list" without changing your ready spells. We could even add in a system with several "spell lists", so that casters can prepare a spell list for adventuring solo, a spell list for adventuring in a group, a spell list for chilling out in town, and so on and "quickly" change the new list to any of them.

Point 2 is a bit harder ... One option would be to increase the efficiency and ease of use of ranged weapons like crossbows. Make the "I'll just use my crossbow and save my spells" a good option for a wizard in the party. Another option would be to also incite other classes to take breaks now and then (e.g., no more automatic healing, some fatigue system, ...). A third solution would be to introduce some powers that can be used indefinitely.

I'll explain the third solution a bit more (even though I'm not 100% sure it's a good idea).

One way is to do it "à la 4th edition" (at least, that's what I think 4th edition is going to do with wizards): to say that wizards can use some sort of "blast" spells at will. This "blast" spell would deal raw magical energy and would be less efficient than all spells - but it would always be available. This could be for example some "magic missile" with reduced damage.

Another way to do something like that is to use the idea of "reserve feats". Reserve feats are feats that can be "bought" by wizards and that were introduced in some books (Complete Mage maybe?). The idea is that, by learning a Reserve feat, you learn to tap into the energy of a memorized spell without actually using it up. The effect is a "blast" that is less powerful than the memorized spell, but which can be used at will. An example could be "Reserve feat: acid arrow". That feat would allow you to cast some sort of acidic blast (for minor/mid-damage) as long as you have an "acid arrow" spell memorized. If you actually cast the "acid arrow", you can no longer use that "blast".

Point 1 now, which - I think - is the most important : not make lowbie's life harder than it already is. I described above what would happen when the timer reaches 0 (i.e., the "current list" is wiped out and replaced with a fresh copy of the "new list"). Obviously, once that is done, the timer "resets" to some value.

Maybe the solution to Point 1 can be concentrated in how we set this new value of the timer. We could set the timer back to say, 1 RL minute for level 1 characters, and up to 30 RL minutes for level 50 characters, with a nice curve in-between.

Comments welcome.
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