[Brainstorm] Fighters

[Kregor]

Please be less offensive and more patient. Especially when there is a good cause for the griping, thus defining it as reasonable instead of petty.

When a thread opened with the explicit request for constructive suggestion, and the topic digresses to criticism and bickering, then yes, it's petty. Insults in the thin veil of a tactful request are also petty. I will leave the topic of pettiness at that, however, and not respond with like pettiness.

The issues with the combat system, and the perceived flaws of armor and such already have another thread, we could have kept them there. This thread, I believe, was intended to pull other suggestions for skills, code, devices, and the like that would help fighters feel like they were more useful in a group. As Christophe's starting post was quite explicit. What could have been a clean, concise thread is now a 4-page morass of taking sides on the issue of what's broken.

Now that we've addressed this, let's not turn it into yet another digression of taking sides on the virtues and rudeness of players who don't agree with everything we think, and try to stick to topic, k? And that said...

I love, love the idea of feat trees. Whirlwind has limited use here, but when you CAN use it it would be very fun to have. Maybe not powerful, but fun nonetheless. Unfortunately, though, AC needs to be fixed for this to really work. A warrior tanking 5+ mobs in an area designed for those of his caliber generally will find this extremely detrimental to his health and labor-intensive on the poor Cleric of the party. You will find that the intelligent players of said parties would still rather have a wizard or priest tank with stoneskin and an offensive shield as it's far more efficient.

Again, a thread for "fix"ing the AC is already in place, it's not here. It's tangential, but not directly related to the topic. Regarding the feat trees themselves, I think Whirlwind would be a very useful tool for those fighters who would choose to take it. Simultaneously hitting the opponents against your party means being able to take them out quicker, reducing damage taken for ALL members of the party, ultimately.

Some of the cited benefits of the caster, that are reflected as "shortcomings" of the fighter class are not an issue of code, or balance, but rather party tactics. We need to break out of the box beyond the PvP or solo player mentality and think as a party. It will help with coming up with constructive suggestions that are more party oriented, rather than simply sounding like pleas to make the fighters more powerful (another qualifier stated in Christophe's first post).

Almost every damage reduction spell, like stoneskin, and every deflection shield a caster can cast are castable upon others. This is done for a reason. These same wards can be cast just as easily on the fighters in the group, rather than the caster first, who should be concerning themselves with buffing the party and warding the warriors and trusting them to protect them. Did you know, one cast of (mass) bulls strength will practically guarantee a warrior to make at least one additional of their extra attacks? The fighter who has stoneskin cast on him has BOTH the benefits of the AC of the heavy armor AND a damage reduction of 10 points! Any caster who doesn't first ward and buff their warriors in combat is either a selfish bastard, or doesn't properly understand party tactics.

I don't know if the extra 11 feats fighters are supposed to get are going to help until the other feats are coded, but it's definitely a step in the right direction, in my opinion.

Yes, this, like anything, has to have the discussion, and some component has to be the horse, and the other the cart. Would the extra points be beneficial to come first, perhaps, because there might be some existing feats that could be taken with a few of them, in anticipation for the rest. Also such new feats would probably be a gradual roll-out.

I would also recommend the addition of trip as a feat (provoking attacks of opportunity for the attempt without 'improved trip as well as the attack of opportunity for picking yourself up off the floor.

Seeing as we still have the Improved Trip on trainers about, I don't know what happened to the trip skill and why, though I think it would be nice to bring back. I also wouldn't mind seeing a rendition of the Neverwinter Nights Knockdown feat, one of the fighter class mainstays on that game.

I actually would like to see automatic healing disabled, but think of the affect on our new players and low level characters. Those braving Howling Peaks and the like. However, this would make priests far more important instead of priests clamoring for "RP opportunities" that are granted via returning the dead to life.

Let me shake your hand on this one, I've said many a time it's counter-productive to encourage group RP and adventuring, when the main role of a cleric is trivialized by the ability to sit down and regenerate like a troll. Not a fighter mainstay suggestion, but a suggestion for encouraging group play in general.

[Sindri]

I agree that more feat options would be great... Sindri actually has a lot of unused feat points, since I see most of the existing ones as not really fitting (for example, he has short arms, so I just can't imagine him pulling off a cleave. Even bashing seems kind of ridiculous, unless he's breaking people's kneecaps).

So, bring on the feats/customization! And one question... can fighters take ranged combat feats (point blank shot, etc.), or do only rangers currently have access to them?

[Grafghur]

Some of the cited benefits of the caster, that are reflected as "shortcomings" of the fighter class are not an issue of code, or balance, but rather party tactics. We need to break out of the box beyond the PvP or solo player mentality and think as a party. It will help with coming up with constructive suggestions that are more party oriented, rather than simply sounding like pleas to make the fighters more powerful (another qualifier stated in Christophe's first post).

Just a quick note. Tt seems and please do correct me if I'm wrong, that all classes, especially the casters have been made stronger (did spells get a 2.5x modifier?), while at the same time, the fighters were made weaker. So I'm from the camp that while I STRONGLY believe that the fighter should be made more useful to the party, they should also be make stronger in PV and solo. From experience as a orc, you need to be strong to survive as you're always alone.

Currently a fighter will always lose to an equal or lesser ranger and by a LARGE margin. Toe-to-toe, a fighter should pretty much always win. This can only mean that a fighter should be made stronger.

Now this can be done in several ways such as:
1) Fixing the AC (heavy armor)
2) Adding new skills
3) New Feats trees
4) Tweaking the other classes (such as casting and attacking at the same time)

Since we can pretty much all agree on item 1, may I suggest we put forward recommendations for 2 and 3.

Name what skill or feat you think might be a great addition to the fighters and how it should be implemented to fit the MUD.

May I nominate: Hitall (JUST KIDDING!!)

[Selveem]

I believe, what Grafghur is trying to say is that since in FK we have 2.5x the hp a normal character in D&D would have, the spells have been modified to deal 2.5x the damage. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem that weapons deal 2.5x the damage. Also, this is visible when you look at feats. Training weapon focus adds +1 to hit and damage. When, in reality, since everyone has 2.5x the health, it should add 2.5x the damage (edited to include: Note: Not 2.5 the bonus to hit, just the damage). So, adding weapons specialization (which would replace the damage bonus that weapon focus currently gives) should allow for 2.5 damage added per melee attack instead of just 1.

Edited to also include: Let's say a fighter gets 25 hp/level + 10 for con bonus (4 con bonusx2.5) multiplied by 50 levels: 1750 hp maximum.

Magic missile does 1d4+1 hp damage per missile. Should only get a maximum of five. Modify that to FK standards: Maximum damage is 10+2.5. Let's say 13 to keep it in perspective. 13 damage times five is 65 damage. You cast that on a warrior once and his hp shouldn't lose more than 3.71 percent.


Gah, double-post. I'm sorry. Ignore the one two below. I can't delete my previous post nor this one!

I cast it on Grafghur being GMed at Magic Missile. I indeed hit with five. It did 4% to him (obviously the amount of damage magic missile should do was rounded). That's with him wearing an item that also gives him HP.

So, basically to be fair melee should be rounded too. And should get the 2.5x damage bonus. =) I also think toughness, if it isn't already, should add 3 health instead of one.

[Orplar]

O_o Did not know that.

[Selveem]

Please understand I have no access to the code and have no way to verify this information, but I would assume this is how it works. If a level 50 warrior in FK has the same that a level 20 would in D&D, this conflicts with information I've received from others (including staff) I've received in the past.

[Kregor]

Again, we digress...

Just a quick note. Tt seems and please do correct me if I'm wrong, that all classes, especially the casters have been made stronger (did spells get a 2.5x modifier?)

Again, this is not a discussion of how weak fighters are toe to toe compared to X class. BUT... to clear up this misconception before it perpetuates further in this and other threads:

No, spells did not "just get" a 2.5x modifier. What has been mentioned about spells damage and 2.5x that of D&D book values is just that: it's talking about the book value of D&D spells, NOT the damage of FK spells. The damage values of the spells wasn't significantly changed with the 4.0 update, which introduced working saving throws. In fact, from some of the notes back and forth, seems some of the spells were actually *reduced* in damage when found to be too powerful. Otherwise, we are dealing about the same damage on spells as we have been for two to three years, and some of them were actually reduced THEN too. What did happen was a slew of higher power, higher level spells that most PCs still do not have anyway.

The 2.5x refers to the cap of damage that a spell can do at it's highest level in FK versus D&D. This is because at level 50, a character has 2.5x the hit points that a D&D character at 20th level does, but a caster has the same *number* of spells at level 50 as a 20th level in D&D. at inept, a fireball will still do 1d6, and still increases at 1d6 per 2 levels, JUST like D&D, but the max number of dice rolled at a level 50 GM is 2.5x more.

This is also not the case on ALL spells, many that should be heavy damage dealers anyway, yes.

May I nominate: Hitall (JUST KIDDING!!)

Note my above post on Whirlwind Attack, it's what hitall always shoulda been

[Selveem]

Forgive me, I suppose I don't understand...

You say that our spells don't do 2.5x damage that they do in D&D.. Yet if a character has 2.5x the hp a character of that class would in D&D and the spell does the same percentage that it would in D&D, that would mean the spell has been modified to 2.5x damage.. right?

*confused*

Ah, my apologies. I understand your post. I never suggested that spells "just got" the damage. I stated that they "do" that damage. I apologize for the confusion..

But, what I'm getting at is that melee should be changed to reflect that amount, too. +1 damage is 2.5 less than it should be..

[Grafghur]

A few feats that might be of interests, based on D20 system

-Close Quarters Fighting (took tons of liberty with this one)
Gets a kick in (based on the kick skill) every other turn. Must have the kick skill
Though lets be honest, the kick does very little damage. Perhaps extend this into a tree that makes a grappling fighter. Would have to limit his weapons to short lengths.

-Faster Healing
Heal as it is currently (if we are to remove healing as is). CON must be 18

-Greater Two-Weapon Defense
Get the AC bonus as if having a shield, but lose the bash. Would need to have GM'ed 5th

-Toughness
If you really only get +1 hp for point.. then this really should be looked at

-Phalanx Fighting
Bonus AC and Reflex saves. Must have a shield tower shield

-Hold the Line
Get one attack of opportunity if it's set and you get attacked. You get one attack of opportunity if they flee

-Swarmfighting
Basically, the more fighters that have this, the better they all get. Some restrictions to size, but this could be a fun thing to add to a party

The big ones, need to quest for them perhaps?

-Combat Brute
After successful bashing you get a +? for the next attacks, required bashing
After successful sunder you get an attack of opportunity, requires sunder (Has anyone ever used Sunder?)
Must have bashed, during the second round, reduce your to hit and add it to damage for one round 1.5x or x3 for two handed weapons. Must have bash and Power Attack. Obviously can only be used one due to bash and set via the config menu

-Formation Expert
Lock shields and get +1 AC if someone else is in the front line and has a shield
Auto rescue if member in your group reaches X hp, set in config menu
Wall of polearms, gain +2 on attack role, must use a polearm, spear, halberd, etc

-Giant Bane
Duck skill, If foe is 2 sizes bigger and is successful you get +1AC and one attack of opportunity. I'm a little iffy on this one but thought I'd add it for discussion purposes

There are also some weapon feats but I think they are a little too powerful.

[Dalvyn]

Alright ...

The first two days after starting this thread, I checked the answer regularly. There were some good ideas, some interesting questions, and I tried to answer and focus the discussion.

Then the thread degenerated into non-constructive posts that one could call whinings, comparisons (how-far-away-can-you-pee contests) between classes ... and the signal-to-noise ratio (the percentage of interesting, constructive posts) dwindled down quickly.

Therefore, I paid less and less attention to this thread. I know that, because of that, I missed some good ideas and comments, but I just cannot get myself to be interested in reading through most posts anymore.

While I was motivated to "patron" useful changes to fighters at the beginning (which is why I started this thread), now, I feel completely uninterested and unmotivated.

It seems to me that several posters just forgot the number 1 rule in communication: consider who you are talking to. Make what you can to keep the people you are talking with interested in what you are saying. This is true when you teach a lesson, this is true when you DM a game, you this is true when are at a job interview, this is true when you send in an application, and this is true when you want to suggest changes too.

Several posters hijacked this thread and turned it into a place to vent off their (justified or unjustified) frustrations. This topic no longer interests me; you've lost my interest. Blame me if you want, but consider that: I'm actually classified as "very very very very patient" amongst the imms; others would have just ignored or closed the thread long ago.

The thing people need to keep in mind is this: modifications to areas, or to the code, or to the game as a whole take time away from other things. We (unqualified, broad "we") do it because/when we feel that it's fun to do. Now, if you read through the posts of this thread while having that in mind, you might start wondering "If I was in a position to modify the code/discuss changes, would this post make me consider it a fun activity, or would it rather decrease my interest in this topic?"

[Rawlys]

Yup, that was me on probably a couple different areas who helped de-rail this thread from the original focus. For that, my apologies to the players and Imms. While I did, at the time, believe my few ideas were relevant to the discussion, I later viewed them as being nonconstructive. I did have intentions of editing them/making another post stating my apology, but quite frankly, I believe I have already made enough posts here on this thread.

To sum it up: Sorry for my crap. Thank you for wanting to make the fighters more enjoyable/interesting to play. See you in game.

[Selveem]

I'm truly sorry to hear this.

But, keep in mind you created this thread just a few days ago and it's already one of the largest threads. Regardless of being on topic or not, all questions and suggestions are valid. They are what many people believe would be very important to this MUD regarding a specific class.

I think I am mostly to blame for the 'noise' but by expressing freely what each person would be helpful (and important) is constructive. No one suggests that everything should be added.

I certainly didn't suggest that I knew exactly how the code works, but just gave some insight as to what might need to be looked at for overall standardization. Comparison to other classes helps gauge what _has_ been done as near as we can see on a player perspective. I think these things are important, too.

As players of this game, we are aware that there are humans behind the coders, testers, builders, and other staff of the MUD. We do not expect any of you to be able to think of everything. I think I speak for pretty much everyone when I say 'we want to help!'

Surely you, or anyone else, can look at this thread and say 'Wow, people are actually, really trying here.' Sure, we digress plenty and go off on tangents, but in the end it's all relevant. We're just people too.

We don't want the staff unmotivated anymore than the staff wants us, the players, to be unmotivated. Everyone gives their time, effort, and wisdom towards this game. Everyone contributes a personality to the place that's been a home to many of us (including myself) for over seven years.

We all are aware that the time and effort placed into the code, areas, and RPs, are all driven by people. The changes suggested are hardly just for a specific person; they help all fighters current and future. I don't think that this is an unwise investment for a top 10 ranked MUD. If it is, I shudder to think what the top 9 consider a good investment.

[Selveem]

By the way, Grafghur, Swarmfighting is an AWESOME feat.. It will make Halfling warriors and other 'small' sized races very powerful. It would be cool to see 5 halfling warriors ganging up on one Ettin. And, even more fun to imagine it.

[Kregor]

Oh, LOOK! A reason for dwarves to have an advantage at being size small

[Selveem]

Oh, LOOK! A reason for dwarves to have an advantage at being size small

Shhh you!

I specifically didn't mention Dwarves hoping no one would. *still lobbying for Dwarves to be medium!*

[Velius]

What kind of feat trees would there be? I have a few to recommend, but since I know nothing about D&D I'll try to be as general as possible.

Feat Trees:

Weaponsmaster:
This feat tree would focus on your skill with a weapon. At the beginning of the tree it'd give you various damage/hit roll bonuses to the weapons you've GM'd, and later in the tree it'd give you access to special attacks for GM'd weapons.

Battlerager:
Don't know much about Battleragers and dwarves, but this'd be awesome addition for dwarven fighters.

Berserker:
This feat tree would focus on you, rather than your weapon. You'd gain access to a 'berserk' or 'rage' that you can go into, I can't think of anything else for this though.

Mounted Combat (Cavalry):
Take a guess

Guardian:
Defensive bonuses.

Armsman:
Offensive bonuses.

[Grafghur]

In the spirit of keeping this alive (*cough* Dalvyn)

I haven't found any skills that should be added other than Wirldwind as described by Kregor and perhaps the Heal skill (Could be something to use if the current form of healing is removed), to used only in non-combat.

So, with that in mind, what are your thoughts on the list of feats I previously posted?

[Lathander]

Regardless of being on topic or not, all questions and suggestions are valid.

The sentiment of this quote is just not true. It does matter whether or not a suggestion/question is on topic. If it isn't on the topic of the thread, start another thread. Then it will be on topic and valid. I second Dalvyn's post.

[Selveem]

Mage Slayer (Requires Sellcraft 2 ranks, Base Attack Bonus of 3 [level 3 fighter is earliest this feat can be taken]): +1 bonus on Will saves, spellcasters you threaten can't cast defensively.

Pierce Magical Concealment (Requires 13 Con, Blind-Fight, Mage Slayer): Ignore spell-based concealment of creatures you attack.

Pierce Magical Protection (Requires 13 Con, Mage Slayer): Ignore spell-based bonuses to Armor Class.

[Velius]

Mage Slayer (Requires Sellcraft 2 ranks, Base Attack Bonus of 3 [level 3 fighter is earliest this feat can be taken]): +1 bonus on Will saves, spellcasters you threaten can't cast defensively.

Pierce Magical Concealment (Requires 13 Con, Blind-Fight, Mage Slayer): Ignore spell-based concealment of creatures you attack.

Pierce Magical Protection (Requires 13 Con, Mage Slayer): Ignore spell-based bonuses to Armor Class.

Another Feat Tree eh? I like it.