[Brainstorm] Fighters - Take 2

[Grafghur]

Okay, lets try to do this one more time and keep it on topic. I'm cutting and pasting my ideas for feats. I know others have posted some in the other thread as well and I invite you to add them here.

Keep it constructive, if you don't think an idea works, then state why and provide an fix or alternative. No going back and forth.

Share your ideas on what new skills/feats might make the fighter class more interesting.


So without any other delays, here is what I came up with.
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A few feats that might be of interests, based on D20 system

-Close Quarters Fighting (took tons of liberty with this one)
Gets a kick in (based on the kick skill) every other turn. Must have the kick skill
Though lets be honest, the kick does very little damage. Perhaps extend this into a tree that makes a grappling fighter. Would have to limit his weapons to short lengths.

-Faster Healing
Heal as it is currently (if we are to remove healing as is). CON must be 18

-Greater Two-Weapon Defense
Get the AC bonus as if having a shield, but lose the bash. Would need to have GM'ed 5th

-Toughness
If you really only get +1 hp for point.. then this really should be looked at

-Phalanx Fighting
Bonus AC and Reflex saves. Must have a shield tower shield

-Hold the Line
Get one attack of opportunity if it's set and you get attacked. You get one attack of opportunity if they flee

-Swarmfighting
Basically, the more fighters that have this, the better they all get. Some restrictions to size, but this could be a fun thing to add to a party

The big ones, need to quest for them perhaps?

-Combat Brute
After successful bashing you get a +? for the next attacks, required bashing
After successful sunder you get an attack of opportunity, requires sunder (Has anyone ever used Sunder?)
Must have bashed, during the second round, reduce your to hit and add it to damage for one round 1.5x or x3 for two handed weapons. Must have bash and Power Attack. Obviously can only be used one due to bash and set via the config menu

-Formation Expert
Lock shields and get +1 AC if someone else is in the front line and has a shield
Auto rescue if member in your group reaches X hp, set in config menu
Wall of polearms, gain +2 on attack role, must use a polearm, spear, halberd, etc

-Giant Bane
Duck skill, If foe is 2 sizes bigger and is successful you get +1AC and one attack of opportunity. I'm a little iffy on this one but thought I'd add it for discussion purposes

There are also some weapon feats but I think they are a little too powerful.

[Orplar]

-Phalanx Fighting
Bonus AC and Reflex saves. Must have a shield tower shield

Think this would be better used for group setting with other 'warriors' or tractic trained characters who know the same feat.

[Raona]

Make stamina important to the Dexterity AC adjustment. In a long slog, the nimble get tired, and are less nimble. But the fighter's heavy armour still works fine. This would make fighters valuable to parties when the party needed to rest, as the fighter could stand watch. Almost everyone else would need to rest, and would be vulnerable while doing so.

Make some interesting, and more powerful, weaponry available only to fighters. Fighters can master any weapon. Add some that others would want to master, but could not. Maybe halberds, double-bladed axes, great blades, and the like should become only the station of the dedicated - fighters willing to train with them incessantly.

Add some ranged weapon firepower for fighters as well: heavy bolas that ensnare an enemy for a short time, heavy crossbows that stun, stuff like that. Weapons that make other classes say "gee, if we had a fighter, (s)he could whip a bola in there and tie up that evil mage for the first round, then use a halberd to keep him back far enough that he has a tough time making touch attacks."

Mercenary work (quests) available only to fighters (or groups led by fighters?), like serving in this army or that for a while, from which they get some fighter-only goodies. Perhaps they can even call in favors from their old cavalry friends, summoning 1-4 NPC fighters to join a PC group while still in a normal FK city, once per week, or month, or something.

More situations where a broad and deep knowledge of weapons is very valuable. NPCs issuing challenges to combat using specific, exotic weapons, perhaps. Or combat in confined spaces, or under water, requiring certain weapon types. (A bola's not going to work under water, and only great STR would let you swing a sword. Piercing would be the call of the day, for example.)

Finally, I believe that in cannon fighters get more attacks per round than anyone else, including other warriors. I'd advocate for that in FK.

[Tobias]

Hmmm what of Defensive Stance...

It is actually an ability of a dwarven class but i think it would do great for a shield using fighter. You can use the stance X amount a day as you gain in levels you can use X a bit more. When you are in a stance you gain a bonus to your ac the draw back is when you in the stance you can't move from where you are at meaning you can't get up and walk out of the room unless you move outta the stance..then you are wearied for a bit of time befor you can use the stance again

[Velius]

What kind of feat trees would there be? I have a few to recommend, but since I know nothing about D&D I'll try to be as general as possible.

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Feat Trees:

Weaponsmaster:
This feat tree would focus on your skill with a weapon. At the beginning of the tree it'd give you various damage/hit roll bonuses to the weapons you've GM'd, and later in the tree it'd give you access to special attacks for GM'd weapons.

Battlerager:
Don't know much about Battleragers and dwarves, but this'd be awesome addition for dwarven fighters.

Berserker:
This feat tree would focus on you, rather than your weapon. You'd gain access to a 'berserk' or 'rage' that you can go into, I can't think of anything else for this though.

Mounted Combat (Cavalry):
Take a guess

Guardian:
Defensive bonuses.

Armsman:
Offensive bonuses.
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I also thought that Mage Slayer tree that Selveem came up with was also great idea.

[Selveem]

Finally, I believe that in cannon fighters get more attacks per round than anyone else, including other warriors. I'd advocate for that in FK.

In my Player's Handbook for 3.0 and 3.5, Monk, Ranger, Paladin, and Fighters all get a maximum of five attacks. Monk can get up to six with flurry of blows.

[Balek]

To "fix" fighters, I would do several things:

Fighter Bonus Feats
-Add additional feat points for fighters (11 more?).
-Add lots of additional feat trees.
-Specific feats I like will be included at the end of this post.

Make sure weapons are correct
-Weapons are the major way fighters do damage.
-Spells are coded to do up to 2.5x more damage because we have up to 2.5x more health here at a comparable level to 3E D&D.
-Weapons are not coded in this fashion, as far as I know. Since the average spell damage is probably not 2.5x, perhaps we could make weapons and damage roll modifiers 2x instead.
-Weapons in 3E are differentiated by their damage rolls, critical hit range, and critical hit multipliers. I would like to make sure that all of the current weapon types are coded at 3E standard.

Add Exotic Weapons
-There are a lot of exotic weapons in 3E that are useful because they do extra damage or have better critical hit ranges or multipliers. Many of these are racial weapons that are considered to be martial weapons for members of that race so that fighters would be able to train to use them without even spending a feat.

-Orcish Double Axe - Double weapon is used as if dual wielding, 1d8/1d8 damage, x3/x3 criticals. Like dual wielding two medium battle axes.
-Dwarven Waraxe - 1d10 x3 damage. Slightly better than a battle axe.
-Gnome Hooked Hammer - 1d8/1d6 x3/x4 slashing/piercing damage. Like dual wielding a warhammer and a heavy pick.
-Elven Thinblade- one handed, 1d8 18-20/x2 damage, treated as a rapier or longsword for weapon focus-style feats.

Once Feats are Revamped, Remove Dual-Wield and Numbered Attack Skills
-All attacks should go off every round. They should get progressively harder to hit with by using the standard -5 attack roll modifier for each additional attack. Right now the game checks the attack's associated skill to see if the attack even happens, then checks the attack roll to see if it connects with the target. This greatly penalizes fighters (and to a significant degree, all other classes with multiple attacks).
-Dual wield should simply have negative to-hit modifiers based on what weapons the character is using and what feats they've taken.

Appendix: Feats I Like

Dual Wield

Two-Weapon Fighting
Prerequisite: DEX 15
This makes the penalties for wielding two weapons equal, and less as per the above post.
A 2nd level ranger in D&D gets Dual Wield automatically, even with less DEX (much like rogues get uncanny dodge), but ONLY if they wear light or no armor. We could do the same, but extrapolate it to level 5 in FK levels.

Two-Weapon Defense
Prerequisite: Dual Wield
When wielding two weapons, you gain a +1 shield bonus to your AC. When you are fighting defensively (combat +defensive), this shield bonus increases to +2.

Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Prerequisite: Dual Wield, DEX 17, Base Attack +6
In addition to the standard single extra attack you get with an off-hand weapon, you get a second attack with it, albeit at a -5 penalty.
A 6th-level ranger (15th in FK levels) who has chosen the two-weapon combat style is treated as having Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, even if he does not have the prerequisites for it, but only when he is wearing light or no armor.

Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
Prerequisites: DEX 19, Improved Dual Wield, Dual Wield, base attack +11.
You get a third attack with your off-hand weapon, albeit at a -10 penalty.
An 11th-level ranger who has chosen the two-weapon combat style is treated as having Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, even if he does not have the prerequisites for it, but only when he is wearing light or no armor.

Improved Two-Weapon Defense
Prerequisite: Dex 17, Two-Weapon Defense, BAB +6
Improves Shield bonus while dual wielding to +2 or +4 while fighting defensively.

Greater Two-Weapon Defense
Prerequisite: Dex 19, Improved Two-Weapon Defense, BAB +11
Improves Shield bonus while dual wielding to +3 or +6 while fighting defensively.

Weapon Focus

Weapon Focus
Prerequisite, Base attack +1, proficiency with weapon
Choose one type of weapon. You gain a +1 bonus on all attack rolls you make using the selected weapon.

Weapon Specialization
Prerequisite: Proficient with weapon, Focus with weapon, Fighter level 4 (10 in FK)
You gain a +2 (Or 4 if we choose to double damage as above) bonus on all damage rolls you make using the selected weapon.

Greater Weapon Focus
Prerequisite: Weapon Focus in weapon, Fighter level 8 (20)
Your bonus to hit increases to +2

Greater Weapon Specialization
Prerequisite: Weapon Specialization, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus (all in the same weapon) Fighter level 12 (30)
Bonus damage increases to +4 (Or 8 if we choose to double damage as above)

Melee Weapon Mastery
Prereq: Proficiency with selected weapon, Weapon Focus with selected weapon, Weapon Specialization with selected weapon, BAB +8.
When taking feat, select Slashing, Piercing or Bludgeoning. Gain +2 (Or 4 if we choose to double damage as above) damage and +2 attack with all melee weapons with that damage type.

Ranged Weapon Mastery
Prereq: Proficiency with selected weapon, Weapon Focus with selected weapon, Weapon Specialization with selected weapon, BAB +8.
When taking feat, select Slashing, Piercing or Bludgeoning. Gain +2 (Or 4 if we choose to double damage as above) damage and +2 attack with all ranged weapons with that damage type.

Weapon Supremacy
Prereq: Proficiency with selected weapon, Greater Weapon Focus with selected weapon, Greater Weapon Specialization with selected weapon, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Weapon Mastery with selected weapon damage type, Fighter Level 45 (Originally 1Cool.
+4 bonus to resist being disarmed (Grip skill),
+5 bonus to one attack/round after first strike (not sure how we'd want to handle this, since we can't really allow the player to select which attack to add the bonus to)
+1 AC
Once per round, can take an attack roll of 10 instead of rolling. (Not sure about this one either. Maybe just make the first attack always hit if a roll of 10 would allow it to do so? Or maybe make it so the worst attack that would hit with a roll of 10 automatically hits? Not sure how feasible that is).

Armor and Shield Feats

Shield Specialization
Prerequisites: Shieldwork
Increase Shield Bonus by +1

Shield Ward
Prerequisites: Shieldwork, Shield Specialization
Gain shield bonus against touch attacks, and vs. Bash, Disarm, Trip, other special attacks.

Active Shield Defense
Prerequisites: Shieldwork, Shield Specialization
Gain an additional +4 against attacks of opportunity when fighting defensively.

Armor Specialization
Prereq: Proficiency with selected armor type, BAB +12
Choose 1 type of medium or heavy armor. When wearing masterwork or magical armor of this type, gain damage reduction 2/-. Any time Dex bonus to AC is lost, so is damage reduction.
Can be taken multiple times but only for different types of armor.

Heavy Armor Optimization
Prereq: Proficiency with Heavy Armor, BAB +4
Armor check penalty reduced by 1, Armor bonus increased by 1.

Greater Heavy Armor Optimization
Prereq: Heavy Armor Optimization, BAB +8
Armor check penalty reduced by an additional 2, Armor bonus increased by additional 1. Total reduction of 3 armor check and addition of 2 armor bonus.

[Orplar]

I like the feat ideas.

[Tobias]

I like your ideas Balek! Mmmm I think a slightly difference with how many attacks per round going off since this is a table top game. Perhaps have it dependant on your weapon skill and class. So fighters will be capped at five attacks with a weapon they are highly skilled in whereas if they are not as skilled they do not get all there attacks in yet. It would show a bit of learning with that weapon as the get progressively better, and as it goes from fighter to ranger to rogue the amount of attacks get capped at 5 then 4 then 3. Barring it wont let you use your offhand to the same degree so some sorta code to go with such to limit offhand attacks and how many you get unless you get a feat that might allow an extra offhand attack.

[Elenthis]

Just a thought...there's a few feats in 3.5 (one might be a template...not sure).

Monkeygrip: Allows you to use a two-handed weapon one-handed, OR allows you to use a weapon from 1 size catagory larger than your size permits.

Four-armed (dont remember the name) gives you 4 arms...4 weapons, or 2 weapons, 2 shields. Works like 1 on-hand weapon and 3 offhands.

[Grafghur]

One thought I had was to take this feat and make it a tree:
-Close Quarters Fighting

The result is having a semi-monk like warrior that would avoid using weapons. Though there would be need for some magical brass knucles that he could get to balance out the lack of a magical weapon.

Perhaps though it's not a direction FK wants to go towards. Unarmed uber warrior.

[Tobias]

if it was a template to help build a monk feat tree..you could give a feat that basically made his brawling aka both his fist use a bit of chi or ki so his bare fist would have a mystical quality to them?

[Kregor]

Actually, you could do that with a tree off of Improved Brawling with the d20 tree of prerequisites:

Improved Brawling
First off, to make this feat really shine, we need to remove the ability to make an AoO (Attack of Opportunity) while unarmed, *unless* you possess this feat. D20 gives you the plus and minus on being unarmed on either end, because the logic is, the unseen parries you would be making during a round with a weapon against another weapon, you do not get to make, hence the AoO. We already have coded that you yourself incur an AoO from your opponent if you are unarmed and they are not, unless you have this feat, further adding the restriction of *Making* an unarmed AoO adds to the value of the feat, and yes, allows you to intentionally build an unarmed monk-like fighter. Further, fighting unarmed to do lethal damage (killmode kill) should be at a -4 to hit penalty, unless you possess this feat. Killmode stun without the feat would incur no penalty, and having the feat would allow either mode with no penalty.

going up the tree, we have:

Deflect Arrows
Already present in the game, and works for the most part as it should, I think, other than the fact that many mobiles who WOULDN'T be able to use it, use it. but I think for the most part unused by PCs because there isn't a tree going further to make it more appealing. If there is perceived value in the Improved Brawling feat, then it will add to the value of this feat. More perceived value in archery and missile combat with their respective feat trees will also make this one more valuable.

Next in the tree:
Snatch Arrows
As opposed to deflect arrows, above, where you simply deflect the incoming missile, with this feat, you actually catch it, and immediately reflect it back to the attacker, as a free action, even though it isn't your turn. This return would be considered a ranged throw attack for purposes of tohit chances. Seeing the feat at work in tabletop is an impressive sight, and it would be akin to riposte is to melee combat in the MUD.

and finally
Stunning Fist
This feat allows you to deal a stunning blow to your opponent. Basically like using the STUN command without the need for the Stun skill or a crushing weapon.

[Kregor]

The Archery Tree
Feat tree for archery. Including some of the existing feats because they may need a rework w/ the new system:

Point Blank Shot
Allows config +ranged with missile weapons. Gives +1 to hit for attacks in the same room.

Far Shot
Prerequisites: Point Blank
Extends the range of your ranged missile attack, at 3/2 the range penalty.

Precise Shot
Prerequisites: Point Blank
Allows using a missile weapon in melee without the -4 to hit penalty for doing so.

Called Shot
Prerequisites: Point Blank, Precise Shot, DEX 13
Like Power Attack for melee. Subtract 4 from your hitroll for each melee attack in trade for +4 damage.

Rapid Shot
Prerequisite: Point Blank, DEX 13
Get one extra attack per round with your missile weapon, but each shot is at a -2 penalty.
(change from current) Add a +rapid to combatmode, to allow electing to take penalties for the extra shot or not.
a 2nd level (5th level in FK levels) ranger with the Archery combat style gets this feat automatically if wearing light or no armor.

Improved Rapid Shot
Prerequisite: Point Blank, Rapid Shot, DEX 16
Negates the -2 per shot penalty.

Manyshot
Prerequisite: Point Blank, Rapid Shot, DEX 17, Attack Bonus +6
When attacking with a bow (and ONLY a bow, no crossbows, slings, etc) You can knock multiple arrows for a single shot.
Add combatmode +Manyshot to options. Option only applies with the SHOOT command, not point blank melee mode.
When you SHOOT, it launches one arrow with a separate hitroll for every +6 BAB, all at the normal BAB, but with a penalty to hit of -2 per additional missile.
(ie, at +12 BAB, shoot launches 3 arrows at a flat -6 to hit each.)
Using the feat limits the shoot command to once per round.

Close Shot
Prerequisites: DEX 13, Dodge, Precise Shot, Point Blank, BAB +4.
Attacking with a missile weapon in melee using point blank mode SHOULD normally draw and Attack Of Opportunity each round from your opponent. This feat negates the attack of opportunity.

Penetrating Shot
Prerequisites: STR 13, Precise Shot, Point Blank, BAB +10.
Make a single shot in a round, attacks every enemy in a line (random chance to hit group members of target, perhaps.)

[Kregor]

And lastly,

Other Combat Feats I like

Combat Reflexes
Make more than one Attack of Opportunity per round, up to your DEX bonus. Still only get one attack per opportunity.

The Shieldwork Tree
A feat tree to address AC matters, particularly for those who RP as weapon/shield fighters. I noticed Balek quoted it above, but I've been thinking to revise it a little:

Improved Bash
Prerequisites: Shieldwork, Bash
Make bash without AoO

Shield Specialization
Prerequisites: Shieldwork
Increase Shield Bonus by +1

Shield Ward
Prerequisites: Shieldwork, Shield Specialization
Gain shield bonus against touch attacks, and vs. Bash, Disarm, Trip, other special attacks.

Active Shield Defense
Prerequisites: Shieldwork, Shield Specialization
Shield bonus increases to +4 when fighting defensive.

[Velius]

LOVE it Kregor. Also love your ideas Balek, think they'd work in a Weaponsmaster Feat Tree?

WEAPONSMASTER FEAT TREE:
Basically the tree you'd learn if you want to be better using your weapon. Short. (Again, I'll try to be general)

Primary Feat: Weapon Focus Feat ( See help file )

Weapon Mastery: Gives hitroll bonuses to all weapons enhanced by the weapon focus feat. Pre: Weapon Focus Feat

(Insert Balek's dual wield feats here )

and...

Mastery of the Spear: You know how to use your weapon well and have learned new techniques.

You gain access to these abilities while using a polearm/mounted polearm

Impale: You thrust your spear hard at your foes chest, attempting to deal massive damage. (Works like backstab, but has a lower chance of working since your opponent is facing you)

Sweep: You swing you spear at your opponents legs, attempting to make them fall over. (Trip, basically, but also damages legs)

Spear Wall: You keep your opponent away from striking distance for a round or two. (You wouldn't be able to attack your opponent, and your opponent wouldn't be able to attack you if this worked out. Made for grouping. If this is unsuccessful, it draws an attack of opportunity from the opponent)

If people like Weaponsmaster tree, I can continue. Feel free to comment

EDITED: spear wall.

[Grafghur]

Any current feats for the fighter that should be looked at?

At the top of my list is: Toughness

As well, it would be great to see some feats work with skills that we never use, such as kick, punch, sunder, etc..

I think there is a feat tree we can look at to make the warrior a cavalier or sorts. Expand on the whole mounted combat. I'll try to find it.

Kregor, can you add your Whirlwind idea (skill)?

[Velius]

I think there is a feat tree we can look at to make the warrior a cavalier or sorts. Expand on the whole mounted combat. I'll try to find it.

That'd be AWESOME Grafghur.

[Velius]

Berserker Feat Tree

Add a berserk skill into the game then add...

Skill: Berserk (there is already a helpfile. (help rage)
Going into a rage sends your warrior into a frenzied state, increasing your
attacks per round to a maximum of six and your strength by one. While
you are raging you cannot flee. Pre: None

Feat: Improved Berserk
You are able to control your rage now. You are now aloud to flee while berserk. Pre: Have a high skill level in Berserk, and have a str of 16

Feat: Bloodlust
Rather than focusing on the damage you recieve, you focus on the pain you give. When you hit 40% hp, you add 5 to the penalty of each blow beyond your first attack (Currently each attack after your first gets a -5 penalty, 2nd attack being a -5 penalty, 3rd attack being a -10 penalty, so on and so forth. With this feat there is no penalty on your second attack, a -5 penaltry on your 3rd attack, a -10 on your fourth, and a -15 on your fifth) Pre: Improved Berserk

Feat: Tireless Rage
You no longer lose stamina when you swing your weapon. Pre: Improved Berserk

Feat: Warcry
You let out a loud roar, raising your morale temporarily. You gain a morale bonus on attack rolls and saves. Pre: Improved Berserk

[Lathlain]

Bear in mind that barbarians/berserkers are a coded class that will be introduced later on with its own guild. It would cheapen it rather if every fighter had access to their abilities using a feat tree!