Haven't had time to get the feat tree for the Cavalier yet, but I had an other though.
I'm a little foggy on the whole 2.5x modifier for spells, but could we not apply the same to physical hits as well? Or is that too much of an imbalance?
Can someone in the know clarify this for me?
[Brainstorm] Fighters - Take 2
The problem with multiplying melee and weapon damage, is that there's no scaling. In other words:
Spells ultimately can reach 2.5x the damage potential of their D20 book counterparts, because of the change in level cap, etc of the damage. HOWEVER, spell damage differs from melee damage, in that it gets better as you go up in level with it. At 1st level, your burning hands spell does 1d4 points of damage. At 5th level, it does 5d4. So as you gain in level, your opponents typically gain in level as well, so the damage you deal stays fairly proportionate to the opponents you face. In D20, that 5d4 is as high as the spell will go; in FK, the cap is raised, to the maximum of 12d4 from a level 50 GM caster. This would do about the same percentage damage to a like level opponent, as a 20th level D&D caster would do against a like leveled D&D opponent.
Melee damage, however, does not scale. Your longsword does 1d8 damage, whether you're first level, 10th level, or 50th level. That's the design of the game, weapons can't just "get better".
If we multiply the damage of melee and weapons by 2.5, what you end up with is an imbalance at the lower levels of the character. Suddenly you can die from a single hit of a dagger, etc. You get the picture. Since melee damage doesn't scale, what you end up with is a far worse case of lethality at lower levels.
What DOES get better for melee, however, are the factors that should go along with level advancement. By 20th level D&D, characters are going to have several magical items with large applies, likely a +5 weapon with other flags, armor that increases not only AC, but max dex bonuses, a primary stat somewhere in the 20's, in fighters' case, 11 more points worth of feats that increase all sorts of variables for melee combat.
This is where FK will have to, and will, improve. It has to catch up to the new system. Weapon applies used to be kept low, because the applies for everything stacked. Dual wielding two +2 weapons meant you got a +4 on both hands, and that wasn't actually correct way to treat it in ANY flavor of D&D. Individual pieces of magic armor stacked their bonuses, instead of only applying to the part it covered. These were all things that had to be fixed, before we could really start bringing in things like Bracers of Armor +8, or the paladin could have his +5 holy avenger, or the thief could have his +5 short sword of wounding, etc... all those things that make for drooling in your favorite fantasy game can actually happen, once the underlying code to support them was there and working right.
Ultimately, yes, fighters and warriors who deal all their damage in melee, do have relatively less punch at higher levels in relation some other classes, but all the stuff above, that WILL come into the game, levels the playing field back up a lot.
Spells ultimately can reach 2.5x the damage potential of their D20 book counterparts, because of the change in level cap, etc of the damage. HOWEVER, spell damage differs from melee damage, in that it gets better as you go up in level with it. At 1st level, your burning hands spell does 1d4 points of damage. At 5th level, it does 5d4. So as you gain in level, your opponents typically gain in level as well, so the damage you deal stays fairly proportionate to the opponents you face. In D20, that 5d4 is as high as the spell will go; in FK, the cap is raised, to the maximum of 12d4 from a level 50 GM caster. This would do about the same percentage damage to a like level opponent, as a 20th level D&D caster would do against a like leveled D&D opponent.
Melee damage, however, does not scale. Your longsword does 1d8 damage, whether you're first level, 10th level, or 50th level. That's the design of the game, weapons can't just "get better".
If we multiply the damage of melee and weapons by 2.5, what you end up with is an imbalance at the lower levels of the character. Suddenly you can die from a single hit of a dagger, etc. You get the picture. Since melee damage doesn't scale, what you end up with is a far worse case of lethality at lower levels.
What DOES get better for melee, however, are the factors that should go along with level advancement. By 20th level D&D, characters are going to have several magical items with large applies, likely a +5 weapon with other flags, armor that increases not only AC, but max dex bonuses, a primary stat somewhere in the 20's, in fighters' case, 11 more points worth of feats that increase all sorts of variables for melee combat.
This is where FK will have to, and will, improve. It has to catch up to the new system. Weapon applies used to be kept low, because the applies for everything stacked. Dual wielding two +2 weapons meant you got a +4 on both hands, and that wasn't actually correct way to treat it in ANY flavor of D&D. Individual pieces of magic armor stacked their bonuses, instead of only applying to the part it covered. These were all things that had to be fixed, before we could really start bringing in things like Bracers of Armor +8, or the paladin could have his +5 holy avenger, or the thief could have his +5 short sword of wounding, etc... all those things that make for drooling in your favorite fantasy game can actually happen, once the underlying code to support them was there and working right.
Ultimately, yes, fighters and warriors who deal all their damage in melee, do have relatively less punch at higher levels in relation some other classes, but all the stuff above, that WILL come into the game, levels the playing field back up a lot.
"There is no safety for honest men except by believing all possible evil of evil men."
Kregor - Ranger of Tangled Trees
Rozor - Lady Luck's Duelist
Tygen - Ranger-Bard of Mielikki
Kregor - Ranger of Tangled Trees
Rozor - Lady Luck's Duelist
Tygen - Ranger-Bard of Mielikki
I really, really like Balek's ideas. He got all the information I wanted to see, and put it in a nice, orderly, eloquent manner. If nothing else, I'd like to see those feats introduced - they not only level the playing field, but let a person pick how he wants to practice and how he wants to play, adding flavor back to the class.
As a side note, I had some thought about changing around the Fighter's Guild a little, but that could be another topic, if you guys want. Just.. with the introduction of new and improved, more focused feats/skills, it'd seem like expanding the Guild for RP and training purposes would be a cool idea.
As a side note, I had some thought about changing around the Fighter's Guild a little, but that could be another topic, if you guys want. Just.. with the introduction of new and improved, more focused feats/skills, it'd seem like expanding the Guild for RP and training purposes would be a cool idea.
Jamais arriere.