Attention, ladies. . . .

For the discussion of general topics about the game.
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Attention, ladies. . . .

Post by Waukeen » Mon Feb 04, 2008 10:11 pm

Attention all female players of Forgotten Kingdoms!

Here's something that has gotten me thinking. In a recent discussion, Kelemvor asked "Why does it feel like every second female player seems to hate at least two other female players and that they then transfer that baggage to every alt they have?"

I was tempted to make this a simple poll, but that would only play into his hands and I wanted the chance to find out if anyone else thinks his observation is accurate.

Now, I don't want this topic to turn into a flaming session, or a bunch of thinly-veiled attacks on other players, but I really would like to get some answers on a few things:

- Are there problems? If so, what are they?
- Do you see it as a problem? Or is it all that other girl's fault? :)
- Is it something that can be fixed or just something that we have to accept and try not to carry over into all our RPs?

I understand that people won't always get along and won't always be friends. I'm not asking you to LIKE everyone on this game, but I'd hope that we're all smart enough to put aside cattiness, OOC gossip and other non-RP things along those lines and play the game like the big, mostly happy well-adjusted family I like to think we are.

. . . All naivete in that last statement aside, it would be nice if we could prove that all of the problems are Kelemvor's fault and if not, that we can discuss them and come up with resolutions or at least damp them down.

Female gamers are a rarity, but that shouldn't be because they're killing each other!
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Post by Nedylene » Tue Feb 05, 2008 1:46 am

I am sorry but this opens up a large can of worms Waukeen. Is there problems... Yes. Is it every female on the game... No. Is it JUST females who aid this problem... No. Can it be fixed? Maybe. Can it be fixed without making those involved feel victimized... I highly doubt it.


Truly though, I am curious whom would post their full opinions on things here. Some of the cattyness which has trickled into IC behaviors has already been displayed on the boards and has never once been regulated or commented on by our staff.
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Post by Waukeen » Tue Feb 05, 2008 2:40 am

I agree that it's not every female on the game . . . this is what I meant by proving Kelemvor wrong. ;) And by my comments, I mean I seem to notice that a number of female players seem to be targeting one another, in the game, for OOC reasons. This hasn't been noticed with male players against other male players at the same frequency it has for female players.

If you have any solutions at all for this, I'm all ears. It looked like you had an idea in your last post. :)
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Post by Nedylene » Tue Feb 05, 2008 2:57 am

In my opinion there is only one true way to fix the problem without making people feel victimized or singled out.

1) Let the past remain in the past and give everyone a fresh slate
2) Let people know the complaints email has a reason and that if a person feels they are being singled out by a person to USE it.
3) Have staff keep track of what they see and when they see OOC influencing IC actions
4) When Staff sees someone being catty for OOC reasons or when they have a complaint from a player pull the person in question aside IN PRIVATE so the discussion remains between the accused and the staff and does not generate more rumors.

It is not the best solution but perhaps the only one is to make those of us of the fairer sex know that we are being watched and whatever actions we, or anyone, is making IS being noticed and the staff is no longer letting it go unchecked. And something staff never wants to hear.... but both regular players and staff members should be watched. It happens from everyone.
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Post by Mele » Tue Feb 05, 2008 3:22 am

I think it's kind of bad how quick we are to assume that less happy ic actions happen because of unfriendly ooc relationships.

Are we sincerely going to believe ALL actions that happen less favourably IC are because of OOC hatred?

I would find that a good solution would be for people to handle their ic, icly. To not immediately assume something is happening to them because so'n'so doesn't like them. I'm willing to bet if someone actually took the time, they'd learn in most cases their supposed enemy, was not that at all.

If you dislike someone so much that you feel like you can't watch/be part of their ic without trashing them ic, or destroying the public view of them via messengers, leave them alone. We're not so tiny a community that you can't live without seeing that one person. If you feel like you are being treated poorly because of someone's ooc feelings, talk to them. It's text, people. You're not going to die. You cannot possibly know every single little feeling someones character has to assume there is no logical reason for their ic actions. Ask them about it.

I'm not in some little universe where I'm oblivious to the fact that half of the mud population male or female dislikes me. If I had a dollar for every pasted conversation of people talking poorly about me based on their assumptions of a situation I'd have like.. atleast 100 really big chocolate bars, nomnom. I'm also well aware of the number of them that try to get to know me, so I can't be bothered with pissing and moaning when something crappy comes my way beyond the normal venting to my friends.

Are we in some text high school that we should all be closely monitored? Are we going to have to stop the "cliques" from roleplay together now? Are we, the playerbase, incapable of fighting our own battles? The immortal staff comes to play the game for fun, just as well as the mortal playerbase does. Is it for one second fun for them to have to monitor the IC relations between two people because one believes the other doesn't like them, but hasn't bothered to talk to them?


Communicate. If you loathe someone so much you can't even do so, leave them alone. If you think someone is out to get you - communicate. If you can't, do your own thing, keep your alts to yourself. Tell people not to tell you other peoples alts, tell them not to paste you things, to talk to you about them, just leave it be.
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Post by Horace » Tue Feb 05, 2008 3:53 am

The best way to keep OOC feelings from affecting play IC - is for players to get to know each other outside the game, and to become friends. I know a lot of people don't like the idea of other people getting to know them beyond their characters, but this is the way I see it:

This hobby is very social to me. If all of your PC's were AI controlled, and they acted exactly like your PC's do, I'd dislike the game and find one with a human element. But for whatever reason many player's don't want anything to do with talking OOC, but they did at some time, so they still do with player's from back when they did...creating cliques almost. I think you'd find, that if everyone started talking to each other on a human level instead of just trudging forward with the "my character would do this!" mentality, the game would be more hospitable in the regards this thread is focusing on.

It's nice to think that everyone can just come in and play a character and that's that. But the truth of the matter is that nearly everyone plays muds like this to play with other characters and to be part of a community. Once someone feels that they have been slighted by another PC/IMM/Admin for any reason, a player will just dwell on it...and as long as they have no means of talking to the person about it, the taste in their mouth will only get worse.
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Post by Selveem » Tue Feb 05, 2008 5:00 am

People have bad days. Males are no different from females in this sense. I've had rough days where I've snapped at another player before when they were just trying to be nice to me. *hugs Shabanna*. When you realize you've done it, it makes you feel horrible. If you don't apologize, sincerly, that particular player may not want anything to do with you again.

I disagree, Mele, that this community is not so small that you should avoid interacting with a player and their characters completely.

If I didn't get along with Horace, for example, should I always log off when he enters the same "room" I'm in? Should I always politely excuse myself? Sure, it may be an OOC problem but that still translates IC.

I feel that if people thought more rationally rather than emotionally, tension would be far less. I know I have riled up many, many people. Not even intentionally. Sometimes my tone (and yes, I say text HAS tone) is terse. Almost none of the time do I mean it to be. That's not to say I haven't allowed myself to slip sometimes. I have. We all make mistakes and when I do feel I have likely offended someone or pissed them off OOCly, I actually send them a polite PM and apologize for the way I presented myself.

I don't think anyone of us should be that pathetic that we need to make real enemies in a fantasy realm. It's just ridiculous. So what are you going to do? Kill their character? LOL.

I just wish people'd put away their claws sometimes and just enjoy the game for what it is.

I have seen people's dislike of another affect their IC actions. Not just females, but I have noticed it more prevalent there. Often, it seems to only be one party. The other seems unreasonable and unwilling to make amends. It's sad that a MUD would have to faction off between sides. It shouldn't need to be like that.

I RP with who I want. Most of the time, I don't even know the other character's player. That's fine to me. I've gotten a couple surprise "LOL, that's you?!" IMs too. That's part of the fun of the game!

Personally, I don't care what sort of baggage anyone carries. I just think it's a waste of effort. :)
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Post by Mele » Tue Feb 05, 2008 5:36 am

Selveem, you seem to have only picked up half of what I said.

I didn't say avoid people you don't like, by any means.

I said, if you cannot communicate with someone you dislike to a point where you both feel comfortable ic, or if you cannot behave in a rational ic manner with the person, you should simply do your own thing. Don't get involved in big rps with them, don't involve in argumentive rp. Do your thing and let them do theirs.
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Post by Selveem » Tue Feb 05, 2008 5:50 am

My apologies, Mele.

I guess what I was trying to get at was that I just don't see the point of disliking someone so much on a game we all play. One that's based on fantasy and not real life.

It just seems like a lot of effort put into a game that we're all supposed to be enjoying.

My suggestion, however, would be that if the staff sees such behavior it should be addressed. Both parties should be (individually) taken aside and asked to explain what's going on.

Surely one of them will give the real reason they feel the events are transpiring. If there's bad blood, the last thing you want is to let it sit as is. It'll get herpes or something.

I'm all about conflict resolution. Get that crap over with. It's not worth dwelling over. If neither party can admit there is an OOC problem, continue to monitor. If things persist, give them another opportunity to come clean.

If after the second time neither say there is a problem and that it's all in good fun, it most likely is. If one or both respond that there is a problem, address it and explain the negative impact it has on the MUD community as a whole. Explain that if it continues to happen, measures will be necessary to correct the situation.

No one wants the 'you're with me or you're with them' stuff happening in an OOC fashion here. You get enough of that in real life. No one wants to have to police the MUD, either. I know the Imms have plenty more interesting things to do like figure out what to make me for my birthday.

Please seek conflict resolution yourselves. Failing that, ask for help. If compromise can't be reached, THEN seperation I suppose. I don't suggest seperation as a primary response, however..
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Post by Mariela » Tue Feb 05, 2008 7:16 am

Here's something that has gotten me thinking. In a recent discussion, Kelemvor asked "Why does it feel like every second female player seems to hate at least two other female players and that they then transfer that baggage to every alt they have?"
People are cold and callous creatures. Women especially.
No offense. Being a women, I have found this true in most cases.

We find someone we do not like. We decide then and there if they are friend or foe. And online it's really easy to tell if it's the same person. Some people are stupid observant when it comes to speech patterns and modes of game style. So you find that person you don't like, and then you notice EVERY character they have.. and hate them more.

And honestly, some people are down right annoying.
Are there problems? If so, what are they?
- Do you see it as a problem? Or is it all that other girl's fault?
- Is it something that can be fixed or just something that we have to accept and try not to carry over into all our RPs?

There aren't any problems that exist that you can fix with an open forum upon women and female logic. If we don't like one another, it's generally best to step back and let us claw each other to death and try not to get involved. Sorry IM's. There isn't a whole lot you can do but to look at the "complaint" objectively and just rule upon the matter at hand.

But as a general blanket, you cannot MAKE people get along. Female or otherwise. I have not met one single person on FK who hasn't found one person or another on the Fk that either they personally annoyed them, or they though that person's character was annoying and carried that annoyance through to the player.

I will admit it. There are some characters I actively avoid unless it cannot be helped. I am always polite to them, but to be honest they royally piss me off.

.. if I don't like a character or a player, I avoid unless I cannot help it. That way, they continue to have their own fun, and I can have mine and there is no conflict. If there is a conflict, if it's serious enough and I feel harrased, that is what complaints are for. If it's not, I sluff it off...

Or I Tell the source of the gossip to bite me and roll over and die. And just leave it at that.

That is actually the problem in FK ooc land if you had to pin it down to a problem. People gossip like old wives about everything. I can count like 10 different rumors about me that have gotten back to me.. and at least 2 of those have made problems between me and another player. AND IT WASN'T FEMALE WHO WERE GOSSIPING! Everything is all well and good, but the fact remains.. the "fighting" you percieve is definatly not restricted to just females. The men are just as giving with gossip and letting fights start.

Kick the beehive anyone?
Confusion heard his voice, and wild uproar Stood ruled, stood vast infinitude confined;
Till at his second bidding darkness fled, Light shone, and order from disorder sprung.
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Post by Kregor » Tue Feb 05, 2008 1:56 pm

In Kelemvor's defense, he didn't say EVERY female, he said every second female, so... :)

I've debated and deliberated as to putting my words into this or not, simply because I honestly question whether any of it will actually change anything in the scheme of things. I ultimately think no, but then this is just my year to wax cynical. It always happens on election year.

As far as those who would question as to whether there ARE issues in the game, where IC relationships bleed over into OOC and cause strife: I have seen the OOC interactions far more than would be thought of someone who's "outside" the network. Side effect of being social outside the game world is that people share things they see in places you don't. Evidence of the OOC/IC dynamic in the game can be reflected in IM comments read, like: "Let someone else (expletive activity deleted) <girl player B> or you can say goodbye to our friendship."

Granted, second hand passes thru filters before it makes its way to a third hand. Both sides of the discussion, the rest of the story, etc. So there's a disclaimer to go along with that. So it became more enlightening when I got to see the actions first-hand.

About three years ago, I decided to do something that I've not done within several years of online roleplay... I crossed over and made a bender character. Not just a female, but a twisted caricature of a seductress female. I saw it as a challenge to my penchant for method acting to see if I could pull it off. It became a very entertaining RP, it also became an enlightening one as to life on this other end of the interaction. Early on, I took great pains to keep our identities apart, so there was an insulation for me to see what happens on the side of a grrl player. Within just a few weeks of playing, I had my first taste of the claws as I RPed in the same room with another female character with a male PC... after a few flirts back and forth, I suddenly get besieged with one single word over a private OOC medium:

"MINE!"

That was one of several instances of either OOC communication, illogical IC hostility and etc at the hands of a select number of players during my girl's early days. And it quickly faded the more who realized that the other end of the screen had a family guy from the wrists up. So yeah, I know the grrl vs. grrl dynamic is there.

There were a few other repeating patterns I see, not just on the female alt, but my male alts as well, and as a player in general:

IC relationships wedged by assorted jealous "others" who will suddenly pop a new alt from the woodwork to become surrogate relations to supplant the current situation, with explicit instructions that things will change... or even more volatile, the pre-planned pairings of two people who create alts with the premeditation of hookup, either at the same time, or one created by request of another. More often than not, the results of such character creation resulting in the deleting or disappearance of one or both alts suddenly when inevitable random occurrence of game world life turns the relationship in directions that weren't desired, or they just get bored. Then there's the reverse, when IC interactions bleed into the OOC, and the RL of the players becomes influenced and dictated by the interactions of their characters. And in its extreme, the virtual world becomes a dating service for people in the form of their alts; this then turns in on itself and fosters even more cattiness, jealousy, and rinse repeat any of the above as we instinctively do our mating dances.

It's really no different than when I was roleplaying in the chat rooms of AOL. The only difference between FK and the Red Dragon Inn of AOLs antiquity is that we actually have dice rolls here. OOC networking, scamming, cajoling, is a given, and its plain to see; anyone who would deny it is either lying or naive. Kel is just calling a spade a spade.

It's all the same, in the end... IC interaction that is ultimately motivated by the OOC feelings, friendships, fancies, desires, et al, of the PLAYERS, not the actual situation reactions of their characters. All of it yields the same thing when things turn sour: loss of RP, illogical changes of direction in an RP, even damage in real life at the extreme... things that just end up dampening the enjoyment of something that SHOULD be virtual reality, and not taken so damned seriously or with any hint that ANY of it is actually real.

I really don't know a fix... splaying it out for the world that I'm not here to steal anyone's girlfriend (...or their boyfriend :P ), that I'm not here to MAKE one, either, that I'm here to escape the inescapable suck part of reality with the comfort of other people who want to do the same...? Would the disclaimer matter? Would requiring or expecting the same disclaimer of everyone else? Would anyone believe it? Would half of the people MEAN it? And would it bring an end to any of it?

I don't think so... it all comes from the primal urge to spray things and mark them, to form packs, and hedge out anyone who doesn't smell right when you sniff them. We can put people in space, but as a race, we've really done a pitiful job of evolving. *I* think all we've done in the end by discussing it is setting it out in plain view and getting it "out there". Paradigm shift is something the majority of humans just won't do... I've yet to actually see it truly happen, game, work, life or anywhere.
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Post by Waukeen » Tue Feb 05, 2008 3:23 pm

Kregor, I think you basically nailed that on the head. I think you got the concerns on the issue. And maybe getting the fact that they are there out in the open will help . . . a little, anyway. :)
People are cold and callous creatures. Women especially.
No offense. Being a women, I have found this true in most cases.
. . . Being that I'd like to think this isn't true, I'd like to see a little more effort in trying to prove Kelemvor WRONG than in proving him RIGHT. ;)
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Post by Selveem » Tue Feb 05, 2008 7:21 pm

I'm sorry Waukeen. The only time Kelemvor's ever wrong is when he disagrees with me. ;) *grin Kel*
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Post by Mariela » Tue Feb 05, 2008 8:55 pm

Sorry Waukeen... to quote one of my best friend's grandmothers while we were dating....

"All women are b*tch*s!"

And I am sorry, I was offended that this post was directed at females in general. Especially since most of my ooc problems have come from MALE sources.

Just cattiness is not the only problem oocly. There is the rampant gossiping and the demands we make upon one another. I think I have found maybe a handful of people who understand that..

A) I have more than one character. And most of my characters have their own pocket of friends outside their characters.

B) I don't want to date, screw or destroy anyone oocly. Even when I am playing my most EVIL character. (And she's something else.. trust me.) I am not out to get THEM oocly. It's all ICly.... it's a puzzle of a game in how much can my little evil make their character's life a living torment.

A handful.
A handful that see the game as a GAME and not...

A) A dating service.
B) Someplace where we spend our entire time ooc.

If I wanted a place to talk ooc, I would shut the computer off and walk my happy butt to my car and go out to see friends. I dont' want to do anything but game while I'm online. It's great when you can snatch someone's IM for meeting up times, but other than that..... why do I need to confess my deepest darkest secrets to people I have never met? If I feel like talking to you, I do. End of story.

Too many people take too many things personally.

You know what else offends me about this post? There was a post not too terribly long ago that was dealing with a few subjects. A few touchy posts later, just when it was actually waxing back on track and philisophical, the IM's shut the thread down as being unimportant.

To hell with that. It was actually getting GOOD. We were actually getting somewhere with it. A revelation could have been learned about how various people see gaming and the like. And instead, we were told to shut up, because it would look bad to the new players.

What does this thread look like?

Oh wait, I know.. all the females on FK are whores who are ready to cut you rather than talk to you.

Okay. I'm done. Rant complete. Blast me. :)
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Till at his second bidding darkness fled, Light shone, and order from disorder sprung.
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Post by Nedylene » Tue Feb 05, 2008 11:10 pm

I'm with Mariela... girls are catty, sometimes female dogs (Ya know PMS does that.. we are rightfully out of our minds for one week of the month) But.... When something gets to me badly I have my stress relief. For your own amusement listen to this song:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1Mzf_kwzfE

To those of you who don't like you tube here's the lyrics:


NEW FOUND GLORY LYRICS

"Boy Crazy"

Some girls are crazy
Just listen to what I have to say about it
You've gotta watch out for the beautiful ones
They'll twist your head right off your neck
And laugh about it with their friends
That's just one night for them
They target you with their eyes
And move with their lips
And it pulls you in
She shuts you down with her voice again
And now are you listening?
This song goes out to girls
That we haven't met just yet
This song is for stupid girls
Who think that every boy is all about them
These girls are crazy...
Just listen to what I have to say about it
You've gotta watch out for the younger ones
They'll tightly wrap you around their fingers
And brag to all their friends
It's nothing but a game to them
Then target you with their eyes
And move with their lips
And it pulls you in
She shuts you down with her voice again
And now are you listening?
This song goes out to girls
That we haven't met yet
This song is for stupid girls
Who think that every boy is all about them
You think you're on top of the world
When all the eyes are on you
Just wait until your heart breaks
And you'll know how I felt when I wrote....


Just ... It's humor relief =)
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Post by Lathander » Wed Feb 06, 2008 12:47 am

I dont' want to do anything but game while I'm online.
An excellent point! I completely agree. That's the best way to approach this whole thing.

Clarification - off point of this thread:
A few touchy posts later, just when it was actually waxing back on track and philisophical, the IM's shut the thread down as being unimportant. ... And instead, we were told to shut up, because it would look bad to the new players.
This is only a clarification and not meant to begin a new discussion within this thread. I don't recall seeing any thread locked lately. One of our focuses when the current imm team split/took over from some of the original creators of the game was to allow players to speak their minds on issues. We used to simply lock a thread when things got nasty. That hasn't happened in a long time. Yet, we imms are allowed our opinions as well. In the thread to which I think you refer, we expressed that our motivations were lessened because of the tone of the topic and the change in its direction away from the original poster's intent. No one was told to shut up, at least by imms, and the thread still exists.
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Post by Mariela » Wed Feb 06, 2008 3:17 am

The thread was not locked.
However the IM who stopped the discussion practically did by their tone and their statement.

And it is not the thread you think it is, Lathander. The thread it is, is irrelevant. And it is very off topic.
Confusion heard his voice, and wild uproar Stood ruled, stood vast infinitude confined;
Till at his second bidding darkness fled, Light shone, and order from disorder sprung.
--John Milton
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Post by Mouat » Wed Feb 06, 2008 4:40 am

We should all hold hands and sway back and forth singing...

We are the world
We are the children
We are the ones who make a brighter day
So let's start giving
There's a choice we're making
We're saving our own lives
It's true we'll make a better day
Just you and me

If that doesn't work, I'm all for having a group hug, especially if its with a bunch of women :)


I did not mean to make light of the situation, but life is too short, live long and prosper and may the force be with you and of course, don't sweat the small stuff. I guess I mean is can't we all get along?

Okay that's enough of me quoting other people's sayings...

Good-night John-Boy.
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Post by Shabanna » Wed Feb 06, 2008 5:22 am

AWwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww I got a hug!!!!!!!!!!!

XD

that made my day... no one EVER hugs me in the forums!!!!!!!!!!! usually quite the opposite! ;)

btw... there is plenty of dude hatin on dude out there... they jsut handle it in the fields where they whip out their swords and compare who has the biggest!!!!! XD

nuff said?

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Post by Enaria » Wed Feb 06, 2008 7:24 am

I rarely post on the boards, because despite the fact I am playing a text based roleplay game, I [feel that I] suck with words. Especially expressive words.

This thread sort of... bugs me. In an irritating way, but I guess you could say that I am more in shock. I know things get tense sometimes between players, but I didn't realize that people were seriously 'hating' eachother. Personally, I can't really comprehend hating someone over the internet.

I don't think there is any reason related to this, that is an excusable one for avoiding or rejecting RP. With any dislikes or annoyances I might have had at any point while playing, I've mainly come to understand that every player has their real life issues that can't help but show through while interacting, even over the internet. I would hope if any player was doing something that was unacceptable, they would have been privatley delt with. If it's not unacceptable, I guess people should just be more understanding to different personalities, and not take things too personally.

Now that I've written this, I don't think it's any help to finding a solution... but when asking someone to read it over pre-post, to make sure I made some sense, they said 'it sounds good, they need to take care of the player'. That sort of sounds... awkward, and perhaps beyond any responsibility any of you signed up for when making your first character, but what else can you do besides trying to make things better?
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