Trample and Shield

Gralock · Post by **Gralock** » Sat Dec 20, 2003 4:20 am

I understand why bash could only be done with a shield, but why would a fighter need a shield to bash with his horse. The trample feat allows a fighter to use his horse to slam into a victim, yet in order to do this the fighter still needs to hold a shield. In my opinion the fighter doesn't need a shield to cause his horse to run over someone. Unless I am not understanding this feat correctly, I think a person should be able to bash while mounted and having this feat trained w/o a shield. Just my thoughts, any other suggestions?

Gralock

Mingus · Post by **Mingus** » Sat Dec 20, 2003 8:21 am

Something else, if the opponent is wielding a proper polearm, wouldn't the horse get skewered if it attemted to do so? And by proper I mean a spear halberd, pike, triden, lance, voulge, ect., long and with a foward point at the end, unlike pilums or javilin which are too short or a lucern hammer that does not carre a foward facing pike head. Think in terms of that Brave Heart movie when the cavalry ran into the line of pikes. I would make wielding polearms more useful in such situations than a sword or mace.

Valens · Post by **Valens** » Sat Dec 20, 2003 5:44 pm

My mind's look at trample is that a horse rears back and stomps on someone. That rearing back would deflect weapons, but that's just me.

Dominik · Post by **Dominik** » Sat Dec 20, 2003 11:30 pm

The rearing back would make the horse that much more vulnerable to longer weapons such as polearms, as it reveals its softer underbelly. The hooves may well have a chance at deflecting a weapon or two...but, really, only a small chance.

Andreas · Post by **Andreas** » Sun Dec 21, 2003 2:44 pm

I agree with Gralock. Requiring a shield for trampling someone with your mount does seem a bit odd.

Maybe separate the commands?

Bash - the regular ol' shield-bash/shield-rush as per Combat & Tactics Trample - overbearing an opponent with your mount

And I would DEARLY love to see polearms that can be wielded one-handed but ONLY when mounted as per a proper lance for a horseman! Only thing I've ever found in the game that comes close are some crude spears... *cough* Not quite on the list of fashionable paladin wear these days, ya know?

Balek · Post by **Balek** » Sun Dec 21, 2003 10:12 pm

If it should be coded so that a polearm can be worn one-handed when on a horse, it should possible have damage increased (as you would be using the horse running as weight behind your attack), but should probably be limited to 1 or 2 attacks per round, since it wouldn't be too easy to move a lance around one handed and hit 5 times in a round.

Gralock · Post by **Gralock** » Sun Dec 21, 2003 11:08 pm

Though I think that the polearm ideas are interesting. This post was set up for asking if a warrior could use his horse to stun a person without the aid of a shield. Granted I have seem many old war moves, Braveheart comes to mind, where the horses are stopped instantly by a well places spear or polearm. Yet back to the point at hand, provided the horse does not get impaled, I think a horse slamming into you would knock you silly. And it wouldn't really matter what the rider had in his hands at the time.

Gralock

Mingus · Post by **Mingus** » Mon Dec 22, 2003 4:08 am

Getting off the subject again. Is the size of the mount taken into consideration when you attempt the bash? If you are going after a much larger creature, will it negate the bash or even land you your mount on your butts?ie bashing a giant/dragon or trying to assult another rider on his Clydesdale with your pony.

Gralock · Post by **Gralock** » Tue Dec 23, 2003 8:17 am

Well if we want to get down to size and all... I have bashed many things 2-3 times bigger than me. Though I can see that as being outrageous in real like. I am sure it would be very annoying to go through and put tags on everything to see if your bigger than it to bash it. Anyways, given the right conditions, a person can stun just about anything. Even a hillgiant that is 10+ feet tall, if you can trip them up or maybe climb up onto a boulder and body slam into its head

you can make them dizzy for a little while or maybe even black out for a moment.

But with mounts, and I see mounts as horses standing at least 5 feet tall, you really dont need to knock them in the head... just hit the creature with enough force to knock it back and hopes it trips and hits its head on the ground. I can see where it would be very hard to bash if you come riding in on the back of a wolf or some other small animal. Yet here's a question 'Is the feat Trample for all mounts or just horses?'

Gralock

Glim · Post by **Glim** » Tue Dec 23, 2003 9:21 am

Code wise:
Correct me if im wrong here but, I didnt think a feat could be specialized to what kind of mount you had, merely that you were ON a mount.

RP wise:
Um...not sure...im sure a riding fox could trample something if it tried hard enough

Stayne · Post by **Stayne** » Tue Dec 23, 2003 11:19 am

I agree with you Gralock, trample should work without a shield.

And to take into account what Glim said perhaps if the bash did a check like -
Check for Shield or (mounted + trample feat)
If the 2nd is true - check that mount size > medium (I believe all mounts capeable of trampling should be large or greater size but I cannot confirm every mount in the game - but you get the drift)
If all true then bash away

If the IMM's agree perhaps something for the TODO list?

Hope that helps
-Stayne

Andreas · Post by **Andreas** » Tue Dec 23, 2003 3:02 pm

Bash currently checks PC size vs. opponent size.

I've always RPed bashing big things (ogres, giants) as charging their legs or something to that effect.

No matter what size horse, you get hit with one and you're gonna feel it! I've had Shetland ponies that didn't come up to my hip take me down because I was careless and thought they were too small. Well, a horse knows how to throw its weight around and, despite popular opinion, they are vicious and cunning fighters. Now think of a 2,000 pound fully armoured warhorse charging you!

Until the advent of gunpowder, the mounted knight was the most fearsome opponent on the field of battle. He was the precursor to the armoured tank. His horse was trained to fight independently and he was a master of his trade: melee combat. 20 heavy cavalry (mounted knights) could easily decimate a force of 100 foot soldiers.

Getting back to the subject at hand...

I think Stayne and Gralock are on to something. Separating the shield bash/rush from the mounted charge would be a good idea. Same thing for the polearms that could be held one-handed but only when mounted. Maybe even another command to COUCH the lance?

Trample and Shield

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