Teaching system - a few months later

[Dalvyn]

Now that the new teaching system has been in for a few months, what are you impressions about it?

Do new players know enough about it, do they know that it is actually a very valid alternative to searching the mud for mob trainers?

Did you experience a teaching from the student's side? How did it go? Was there enough roleplay? Did you enjoy the experience?

Did you experience a teaching from the master's side? How did it go? Was there enough roleplay? Did you enjoy the experience?

Did the new teaching system allow you to strengthen a master/apprentice kind of relation, or was a "one-lesson" thing?

Both older and newer players are welcome to share their opinions!

-----

We are considering opening up the applications for more advanced teaching feats in the next days. We will most likely do so as soon as we get a few answers here.

[Caelyvar]

I would like to say that I have had one character learn one thing with the new teaching system and it was actually a language, I know this isnt like a HUGE leap, but I really enjoyed the RP around it, and really my character only learned the language up to Inept and then spent the next few days just trying it out, trying to learn it.

I had a good time with the RP and not knowing what the hell anyone was saying it was just an awesome time. I mean, I could have just paid a ton of plat and learned it up to expert or something then went back to the RP, but really learning it from inept to grandmaster just hanging out with people speaking the language was really interesting.

If a skill can be learned THAT way, where its intense and lots of RP, I am all for the teaching system. While you cant do that with all skills, you can do it with a lot of them. Even using a dagger can involve teaching the person just the basics and then forcing the person to practice over and over before teaching the next step.

It builds IC bonds, and thats good for PC's and players alike

Just my two cents

[Nedylene]

Now that the new teaching system has been in for a few months, what are you impressions about it?

Personally, I LOVE this new system but it working requires alot on those who are utilizing it.

Do new players know enough about it, do they know that it is actually a very valid alternative to searching the mud for mob trainers?

This is a learning curve. I have taken the time to teach a new player about the teaching system at their request and even had the pportunity to teach a not so new player about the teaching system and have a lovely rp of language learning where both sides were teacher and student It's like the plague.. it catches on slowly then spreads quickly infecting everyone with a teaching bug.

Did you experience a teaching from the student's side? How did it go? Was there enough roleplay? Did you enjoy the experience?

I experienced it from the teacher's side once/twice. Once I spent nearly an hour learning the sylvan tongue from a centauress which proved a funny and challenging RP all around. It began with just simply phrases as you would in a language class... Hello, goodbye, etc etc ... Moving onto my name is, I'm hungry etc. It was fun, challenging and led to alot of laughs at all of the mistakes.

I also slipped into the role of student with Aldren which did not entirely utilize the teaching system but the lesson was in the spirit of how to properly learn. See I have a khopesh .. It's a long curves egyptianesque style sword. Anyone ever know how to USE one of these WITH a two hand grip? Yeah.. I don't. So Aldren spent the time helping me understand how to better utilize it in smote fighting. While a "skill" was not actually taught I still find that this is the proper utilization of the teach system.

Did you experience a teaching from the master's side? How did it go? Was there enough roleplay? Did you enjoy the experience?

I have also been a teacher. And I had a BLAST. I also had super good students who took every rp hint I dropped at them and ran with it. They also added touches to their own with failing at something and succeeding and it led to very entertaining, sometimes funny, sometimes harrowing rps. I have thoroughly enjoyed all it has brought to the game in the experiences I have had.

Did the new teaching system allow you to strengthen a master/apprentice kind of relation, or was a "one-lesson" thing?

Not only has this system allowed me to strengthen master/apprentice relationships but it has given a whole new definition of master/apprentice. Now I don't have to just go through the relation on how to act but can add perks to it.

[Orplar]

I couldn't have said it better.

Teaching system = Greatness

[Dranso]

I really do like this teaching system. I only have one problem with it however. I was recently teaching a language to someone and I went through some good rp to teach him, then I typed the command and it taught him. Then thinking because I had grandmastered that language, I continued teaching him. So I rped some more then tried to enter the command again but it said I couldn't teach him anymore. So I could only teach the person to the inept level. I don't know if its just me but I think if you are that good at a language you should be able to teach a person a little more about it.

[Dalvyn]

Dranso, do you have the "Teacher" feat?

[Dranso]

Nope, but I was thinking about taking it.

[Glim]

Im considering taking a few of the feats but have a couple of questions, first:

Would it be best to apply for each feat seperate or could you include it all in one application? In my instance, im considering and planning ahead to take 2 scholar feats and a teacher feat.

Would you need different recommendations for each feat? Meaning if I could include them all in the same application, would I need 9 total recommendations or only five?

Theres quite a few threads on this system so if this isn't the best one to ask in, feel free to move it
Thanks for the help,

[Nedylene]

Personally I would like to see having to get nine full recommendations for ALL the feats. But then again I would also like to see a quest you have to do to actually GET the feat. Like the imms give you a token that shows you are worthy to larn but first you have to provey oruself scholarly, go throught he lessons etc.... But.. that isn't what this thread is about is it?

[Dalvyn]

Only one feat per application, with a minimum delay (still not set precisely) between two recommendations.

One of the points being discussed right now is whether any sane player could be reasonably asked to spend up 6 feat points on this system or not. We could consider to grant the feats for free to players who have shown that they can make good teaching roleplay, but ... that would be another open avenue for those who like to cry favouritism.

[Nedylene]

*6* .... .... Well.... Six is a bit extreme considering that these feats themselves would be open by application only. That and I only saved 4 for the whole ordeal... I swear I'm not biased or anything. BUT, six is slightly extreme for the four feats. Personally I believe the applications should all be carefully considered and a person's rp watched (if possible) after the application is sent to assertain if they are deserving of the feats themselves. Then it is kept four feats points for ALL characters without a cry for favoritism but still a slightly monitored application to ensure those deserving and those who display the proper aptitude and RP knowledge gain them

[Glim]

Six? I thought there was only four. Scholar 1 and 2 and Teacher 1 and 2. Or is there going to be a third feat for each or a new feat you can take twice added? And I do think that six, and possibly four is a bit much. Many older players have used all of their feats (I am lucky enough to have saved three of mine but I have been tempted to use them in the past).

[Glim]

I know this might be a bit of a radical suggestion because the teaching system has already been coded, but this is just an idea if it is seen that too many feats are required for the system. I was looking through D20 and trying to find something similar to teacher and scholar and all I could think of was the Profession skill. So here is just a suggestion: Require the normal application to take a special teacher/scholar feat, and when you do you are given a skill called Profession: Teacher (or professor, or scholar, or whatever). The only way to train this skill would be to teach others, and as your skill gets higher, you can teach higher level skills, require a lower skill level for those teachable skills, and can teach others to a higher level. Basically the feat would allow you to teach, but the skill level would duplicate the higher feat levels, requiring less feat points.

I agree with what Dalvyn, I think that is some people were given the feats for free but others had to spend precious feat points, I think that many would feel left out or cheated.

Just hoping that helps,

[Dalvyn]

You are correct. The number is 4, not 6.

[Meekir]

I still feel like a relatively new player. I really like where the teacher system is going. I had a good experience where I could actually teach a new player important things about a skill in terms of commands, roleplay, and useful things to know. The tendency in the past was just to point them in the direction I think they could find a trainer, because I couldn't do much else. They seemed to really enjoy being able to learn something useful mechanically *and* roleplay with someone.

A second occassion I had to teach I was disappointed I couldn't teach them any more about a skill I had grandmastered, and they were a novice at (mount), or a skill I was an apprentice at and they didn't know (handle animal). (I feel like it's taken me hella long to acquire the few skills I have, but that's another story.) As before I gave the new person a lesson in word commands within roleplay, how to roleplay, etc. but I was unable to follow through with a little bit of mechanical teaching. Although I think the student found this somewhat useful it was disappointing for both of us not to be able to follow through so he could at least practice a new skill.

As a new teacher, the system is expensive. I had to spend precious stat points and glory-to-stat points to utilize the Teacher feat. That hurt, but I wanted to roleplay teaching. More people would teach and learn from PCs, if more people could be teachers.

So, although I think it's a great first step, I still wish it were easier to teach and to learn from PCs. I'm baffled by the application system and all the requirements in place. In my mind, a little bit of teaching should be something everyone can do. When the alternative is to hunt for NPCs with *no* roleplay, incentives to interact player-to-player make sense.

[Dalvyn]

I still feel like a relatively new player. I really like where the teacher system is going. I had a good experience where I could actually teach a new player important things about a skill in terms of commands, roleplay, and useful things to know. The tendency in the past was just to point them in the direction I think they could find a trainer, because I couldn't do much else. They seemed to really enjoy being able to learn something useful mechanically *and* roleplay with someone.

That is exactly the motivation behind the new teaching system.

A second occassion I had to teach I was disappointed I couldn't teach them any more about a skill I had grandmastered, and they were a novice at (mount), or a skill I was an apprentice at and they didn't know (handle animal). (I feel like it's taken me hella long to acquire the few skills I have, but that's another story.) As before I gave the new person a lesson in word commands within roleplay, how to roleplay, etc. but I was unable to follow through with a little bit of mechanical teaching. Although I think the student found this somewhat useful it was disappointing for both of us not to be able to follow through so he could at least practice a new skill.

Here's the current progression between the master's level (horizontal axis) and how high they can train their students. The green line is for Teacher-0, the yellow line for Teacher-1, and the red line for Teacher-2.



As you can see, going from Teacher 1 to Teacher 2 is more of an improvement than going from Teacher 0 to Teacher 1 (that is to be expected, since the first move does not require any application).

As a new teacher, the system is expensive. I had to spend precious stat points and glory-to-stat points to utilize the Teacher feat. That hurt, but I wanted to roleplay teaching. More people would teach and learn from PCs, if more people could be teachers.

Yes and no ... We do not really want any character to be able to teach, because it could quickly degenerate into an easily abused option where teaching isn't really supported with good roleplay anymore. On the other hand, I agree that it needs to be a valid alternative to mob training (which is why I'm not sure that the cost in feat points should be kept).

So, although I think it's a great first step, I still wish it were easier to teach and to learn from PCs. I'm baffled by the application system and all the requirements in place. In my mind, a little bit of teaching should be something everyone can do. When the alternative is to hunt for NPCs with *no* roleplay, incentives to interact player-to-player make sense.

As shown above, everybody can do a little bit of teaching (check the green line). My take on the applications (though I might be wrong about it) is that people who I think "deserve" to be teachers will have no problem getting people to support their application, simply because they have already interacted with others and those others will have no problem saying that "that interaction was good, that player deserves to be able to get the advanced feats and thus have code support his/her teaching roleplays". Do you think you would have a hard time gathering enough positive opinions about your roleplay? (Remember they are OOC opinions from players, not IC opinions about your characters).

[Glim]

Sorry, more questions. Tried to read and figure out but alot of this happened while I was not playing so im trying to understand and catch up at the same time:

1. Teacher 1 is currently in game and does not require an application, will this change? Meaning will teacher 1 eventually require an application?

2. Applications are not currently being accepted for teacher 2, scholar 1, and scholar 2?

3. Currently, you can only teach skills that have been raised to expert (with teacher 0) or a little below adept (with teacher 1), but they must be skills below level 20 (because scholar 1 and 2 are not possible yet)?

Thank you for any help and please tell me if this isn't the right forum for quests and you would instead prefer opinions posted here, I would be happy to ask in a better thread

[Dalvyn]

1. No change planned.

2. Right.

3. Correct.

Though applications should soon be accepted. You will only be able to apply for ONE feat each time (i.e., EITHER Scholar-1 OR Teacher-2 first).

[Dranso]

For the applications, should the recomendations from other people be IC or OOC?

Edited to say

Whoops sorry bout this, I'm really stupid and should consider reading the posts all the way through instead of just skimming. I see the answer to my question now.

[Raona]

It was before the teaching system was revised, but this still seems on-topic, if rather long:

Teaching RPs can be fun! Raona improved her orcish a little in an RP with Miriel, and I thought it was great. Miriel taught Raona not just words, but orcish culture: (I hope Miriel's player doesn't mind my posting the edited version)

Miriel clears her throat, 'Now... I have taken the liberty of constructing a list of common orcish nouns and verbs.'.
Miriel hands you a sheet of paper and nods at her words.
Raona nods, then turns to look over the sheet.
Raona ogles at the list, saying 'I can see pronunciation is going to be a right challenge...this one is?'.
Miriel says 'You will find there several verbs, in various forms. To hunt; to kill; to eat; to... ah... mate - though I put that politely, without the common vernacular of its forms.'
Miriel says to you 'Mind you, if you ever want to swear, orcish is the perfect language to do it in.'
Raona points to *that* word, then blushes and points at another.
Miriel nods at you 'That word is... ah...' She frowns, 'To hurt.'.
Miriel says to you 'Though it is to hurt another, rather than to -feel- hurt.'
You nod at her.
Raona attempts to pronounce the word, hesitantly.
You now speak orcish.
You say 'Hurt other'
You now speak common.
Miriel taps her lips, 'A moment.'.
Miriel utters the words, 'comprehend languages'.
Miriel's face brightens with understanding.
Raona looks to Miriel, seeking correction 'Anywhere close?'.
Miriel winces, 'About as close as a small prawn is to a whale?'.
You wince.
Miriel says to you 'But prawns can be swallowed by whales and thereby absorbed into its digestive system... so with work, you can be a whale.'
Miriel blinks at her absolutely appalling analogy.
You ask Miriel 'It be that the words are not simply phonetic, or that my phonems need work?'
Miriel strokes her lips, 'Hmm... before we go further, you need to ask yourself what you want to achieve. I can teach you orcish, and you can directly translate your grammar to orcish.'.
Miriel says '-Or- you can try to speak in an orcish way, then use that to understand their language.'
Miriel says to you 'I do both, depending on my mood. I find it difficult to sustain the stunted intellectualism of the orcish way of speaking, but often I find it useful to make myself instantly understood to an orc.'
You say to Miriel 'To be true, your sociology lessons seem the most critical to my present urgency...and to whit, I need to learn to think like an orc. Let us try to avoid translation.'
Miriel nods.
You say 'It will hurt'
Miriel says to you 'Then let us converse like orcs. You in the orcish tongue, myself in common but in the orcish style.'
Miriel sits down and relaxes.
You nod at her.
Miriel asks 'Ouz gonna bash da pansies?'
Raona sits, taking a seat and a sip of tea.
You say 'Yes'
Raona keeps it very simple.
Raona asks 'Does a nod indicate the affirmative, in their culture?'.
You now speak orcish.
Miriel nods faintly, 'I believe so. If not, they have had by now sufficient interaction with enough culture that utilise the nod.'.
Raona nods, for emphasis.
Miriel asks you 'What ouz gonna do to da pansies when ouz bash dem?'
You say 'HURT them. All of them.'
Miriel corrects, 'Dem.'.
You say 'Then eat well.'
Raona tries to take on more of the vernacular, but seems slow to pick it up.
You exclaim 'Big feast!'
Miriel says to you 'Wonderful'
You say 'Mes make jerky of panzies.'
Your rub your tummy and say "Yummy!".
Miriel smiles at you 'You see, you encapsulated there, the typical orcish response. They say what they are going to do - eat. A verb. And then without a sentence, they use a noun phrase shortly after.'.
Miriel frowns... 'Allow me to give another example.'.
Miriel speaks in common.
Miriel exclaims 'Mez lead da boyz! Me gonna smash da pansy castle!'
Miriel exclaims 'Big fight!'
You ask 'Ears good trophies?'
Miriel says to you 'Whereas elves or humans might say, "I lead the boys, and we're going to smash the elf castle. There will be a big fight. Hmm? Yes, orcs value ears as trophies.'
You learn from your success and improve at orcish!
Raona nods, trying the form 'Qmcri! Bkg eysrlf, big highr!'.
Miriel smiles proudly, 'Yes.'.
Raona points at herself 'Fiiht voo. Oe.'.
Miriel says to you 'Alright... now you're going to try to defend your mating and hunting rights verbally. Please, no Tyrran legalism here. I want you to try and approach it like an orc.'
You exclaim 'Panzie smashing!'
Miriel exclaims to you 'Ouz stops talking now! Dis -my- land!'
Raona looks aghast, then puzzled, then determined.
Raona stands up, putting her hands on her hips, and says 'Xous btriam nlmt, tjfo.'.
Miriel speaks in common.
Miriel says to you 'Incidentally, I'm not sure if orcs bury their dead.'
You Hmmmm out loud.
Miriel says to you 'They may eat them.'
You now speak common.
You say 'Drat, I thought it witty, but didn't consider that...'
Miriel chuckles.
Miriel says to you 'No matter.'
You say 'I'll need consult Goz's book on the subject.'
You wink at Miriel.
You now speak orcish.
You say 'Youz must be lost, little orc. This my land.'
You exclaim 'Dis! DIS!'
Miriel exclaims to you 'Me lost? Dis my land! Ouz not leave... big fight!'
Raona tries again, correcting herself.
Miriel says to you 'Oh. You probably wouldn't call him an orc, any more than I would call Larethiel an elf.'
Miriel says to you 'Or you would call Jaenoic a human.'
You say 'Youz be lost, little one...youz on me land, and place of youz death if you not move.'
Miriel smiles.
Miriel speaks in common.
Miriel says 'Good, good... but remember to cut down on your conjunctions and clauses.'
Raona tries to add some swagger, but it is clearly forced.
You now speak common.
You say 'This is difficult to keep up! I feel as though I am losing eloquence...'
You chuckle.
You now speak orcish.
Miriel chuckles.
Miriel says 'It might be better to say...'
You learn from your success and improve at orcish!
Raona tries 'Yosz most, lhutlf npd...dgu me lcle, njbcf wiere yovz dhe.'.
Miriel says 'Ouz lost (note there, I remove the verb 'be')! Ouz on -my- land! (Perfect, Raona) Ouz be dead if ouz stay! (Keep it even simpler - don't place emphasis on -not- doing something, place emphasis on what will happen if they -do-)'
You nod.
Miriel says to you 'I understand what you're trying to do by calling him little one... but remember you're trying to solve this verbally even if you are an orc. So keep insults to a minimum. Threats are fine, that's how orcs assert authority.'
Miriel says 'Not insults, unless you expect a fight.'
You nod at her.
Miriel exclaims 'Me be dead? Dis -my- land! Dis -tribe- land! Dis -Gruumsh- land!'
You exclaim 'You leg cook up tasty. Butter!'
Miriel says to you 'Note there, I've asserted the three most important parts of orcish society. I've claimed personal ownership, but have backed it up with tribal right and then given it the endorsement of Gruumsh.'
Raona shakes her head at her own retort, then nods at Miriel's.
Miriel says to you 'Remember that orcish society is extremely tribal. If an orc angers a tribe, his tribe may castigate and exile him for it.'
Miriel says to you 'Alternatively, your orc - the one you are pretending to be - may know his tribe is just looking for an excuse to go to war with the tribe of -my- orc.'
Raona nods.
Miriel says to you 'Pretend your orc has the backing of his tribe to invade this land.'
Miriel leans back, steepling her fingers and considering you.
Raona thinks a moment, then offers 'Gquuksh xhqhpo...urrnpg vribf iave lbld. OY ttkbe.'.
Miriel smiles at you 'I know what you're trying to do, and you came close.'.
Miriel says 'But you've still got too many conjunctions and verbs. This is how I would have said it...'
Raona lowers her shoulders a bit, listening to Miriel's counsel.
Miriel exclaims 'Gruumsh bless -my- tribe! -My- tribe strong! -My- tribe wants ouz land! Dis -my- land!'
Miriel says to you 'See, what I've done there? Your orc has directly challenged my legal right to this land...'
You now speak common.
Raona nods, observing 'Just be transparent about it, hmmm? Say what you intend, plain and simple.'.
You now speak orcish.
Miriel says 'My orc asserted his personal ownership, then his tribe's strength, then Gruumsh. So your orc has claimed the blessing of Gruumsh, asserted his tribe is stronger, then followed logically to assert his own personal claim.'
You nod at her.
You now speak common.
Miriel smiles at you 'Aye. But being transparent doesn't mean that your orc doesn't have his archers in the trees ready to shoot my orc, or that my orc hasn't already made sure his shaman has blessed him against arrers.'.
You nod at her.
You ask 'The only hope of deescalation being one party deciding they can't win an actual contest?'
You ask 'In other words, a real threat need be palpable?'
Miriel muses, 'Yes, or if the shamans of each tribe has had a vision from Gruumsh calling the orcs to invade alien lands.'.
You nod at her.
Miriel says to you 'Either a real threat, or a unified cause.'
Miriel says to you 'Because to be fair, the orcs are generally the threat. They are generally not -threatened-'
Raona frowns slightly, wondering 'Does this mean that the orcs seek to bolster the peace because they have other battles in mind?'.
Miriel says 'They could.'
Raona hmmms bitterly, nodding.
You now speak orcish.
Miriel speaks in common.
Miriel says 'Orcs often infight even in war. It takes a truly strong leader to unite several tribes. That is why, when orc chieftains die, their tribes scatter.'
You say 'Too much think. Me smash panzies.'
Miriel winks at you 'My orc needed to respond first.'.
You say 'Sorry...thought was done.'
Miriel exclaims 'Ouz tribe stronger? No! -My- tribe stronger! Dis -my- land!'
Miriel grins at you 'I was responding for your orc.'.
Miriel says to you 'Imagine by the way, this ritual or negotiation as similar to two cats. They will try to make themselves look larger, hiss and jump at each other. They will repeat that for some time before actually fighting.'
Raona nods, thinking for a time, then finally tries a ploy: 'Oua trkbe jblf dead lqw...yos vylkinf, tgey bxing.'.
Miriel speaks in common.
Miriel exclaims 'Ouz fight us?!'
You say 'Soon be just youz.'
Miriel exclaims 'Ouz lie! Ouz must lie!'
Raona makes a fist with her hand, punching it into her other one.
Miriel smiles, 'And then I am afraid I cannot know what the orc would do.'.
You nod at her.
Miriel says 'If he fell for the ploy, he might back down and accept your leadership over his. Or he might fight, hoping by the rights of combat to seize control of your tribe.'
You now speak common.
Raona says 'Whew...that be quite intense, I must say.'.
Miriel chuckles at you.
Miriel says to you 'Indeed.'
Raona shakes her head, as if to clear it.
You say 'Not much opportunity to think through one's tack...'
Miriel says to you 'I'm not sure if I said, but Ooma may not understand when you talk that you argue as an orc. So... once you have mastered the language, it -may- be best for you to speak as a human, just slightly blunter.'
You nod at her.
Miriel says to you 'No. The orcish life is one of violence and swiftness. Of strength and battle.'
Miriel says, OOC, 'I actually enjoyed that. I'm such a nerd.'
You say to Miriel 'You are a consummate instructor, Miriel. I could not have hoped for a better tutor.'
Miriel chuckles, 'Well, I have always wanted to be a teacher.'.
Miriel says 'It is not enough to have knowledge, one must pass it on.'
Raona smiles, saying 'May the Binder bless our efforts...I concur wholly with your sentiments.'.
Miriel says to you 'Mind you, I feel slightly ashamed that I understand orcish mating and territorial rights better than I understand the legal systems of Evermeet.'
Miriel rises from her rest.
You chuckle at her.
Miriel sighs, 'I never was wise enough to understand such things.'.