RP of invis and sneak/hide

[Glim]

I think what we're all feeling the same way about this subject, just getting to it in a different way. I'm not saying that it should be impossible for a wizard to sneak up on someone. I'm saying that currently it should be considered at the discretion of the victim until something is coded to make that determination.

Wow, a surprise, we all agree on this. The victim rping their reaction at their own discretion is the best way there is.... currently. It isn't the way it SHOULD be, but it's the best we have at the moment. Thus... my proposal for listen checks.

And spots checks too... but thats for another debate. >.>

[Enig]

At the moment, yes, I would say it's appropriate to react to these echoes, because like Glim says, that's all we really have to go on at he moment. The point of this thread seems to be to propose a change that would affect whether or not a PC sees those echoes so the 'victims' could react or not react on the basis of code, according to the skills their character does or doesn't have trained (ie. spot and listen).

(Selveem)
Why is that not a valid comparison? Kadred's wearing the same equipment that a rogue would be. Selveem is wearing platemail.

This has nothing to do with clothing and it's not as if Glim has arbitrarily suggested giving wizards a sneak skill. The idea doesn't really seem to focus on about wizards specifically either, except insofar as they tend to have the easiest access to invisibility and flying. This thread is about the combined effects of invisibility and flight, and if Kadred had quaffed potions or had these spells cast on him in some other fashion he'd be subject to the proposed revision as much as any wizard, or any other character with the necessary enchantments.

Going to the other side a bit, I realise this is pretty poor form for a debate and doesn't exactly help my arguments, but let me ask you fellows for an opinion. One of the biggest *concerns* I have regarding the idea is that it might step on the toes of rogues a little, by taking one of their 'signature' abilities (hiding/sneaking/etc) and giving an admittedly weakened version of it to anyone with the capacity to drink a few potions. Are there any concerns from players of rogues that this might dilute the usefulness or uniqueness of their character?

[Glim]

Now, one other thing id like to add. Any class could potentially move undetected into a room. Since spot checks aren't coded, invisibility here is not even the main focus, the main focus is flying removing your feet from a surface that would make noise. But that doesn't mean that non-rogue classes that have no spells on them couldn't be unheard as they enter the room. There are many factors that would affect such.

Let me make some modifications to my proposal and see if that would be understood better:

Listen base DC for hearing someone enter a room: 10

Now, different things might modify that DC (make it easier or harder to hear you moving):
*Add these to the base DC when applicable
Very quiet room: -5
Very loud room: +5
Flying/levitation: +5
Raining: +5
Running: -5
Jogging: -2
Wearing heavy armor: -5
Wearing medium armor: -2

Gimme some time and I could think of some more things,
Hope that helps,

[Lathander]

A listen check for movement would remove these little gray areas.

I am likely missing the point of this and am asking for clarification. Isn't "listen" already in the game and functioning automatically once learned?

[Selveem]

The proposition as I see it is to have this functional skill to be applied to these circumstances, as well.

[Glim]

A listen check for movement would remove these little gray areas.

I am likely missing the point of this and am asking for clarification. Isn't "listen" already in the game and functioning automatically once learned?

Yes, it is. This is merely a proposal to add a listen check (and ideally eventually a spot check, but that isn't in the game), to movement echoes. The check would be harder or easier depending on certain circumstances (flying being one of them).

[Sairaven]

As someone that plays a thief, I rely on sneak and hide quite a bit in my RP.

When I am trying to engage in sneaky RP, I will often emote sneaking (while hidden) into an area and finding a place to hide. No matter the setting, there's usually somewhere to hide that can be inferred from the description of the room.

What bothers me is when I sneak into a room like the market where, despite the lack of PC characters, there is still a great deal of activity (as evidenced by echoes that automatically fire and room descs) and everyone is suddenly aware that I snuck in. They might not realize it's me, but they still start to act differently.

There are times I won't emote after sneaking in simply because I know that if I did it would give my presence away and people will start to act differently.

[Lerytha]

I think despite the "small-print" of the discussion, we all agree it is at the discretion of the "victim" to decide whether the flying/invisible character is noticed or not. Personally, I always make sure my character doesn't react to a flying/invisible character, unless (as Mele stated earlier) they fly in and out, in and out. Why do I always do this?

Because I would always prefer people to do the same for me (incidentally, if they don't, I don't complain I just roll with it because as mentioned, its up to them). My character has a reasonably high level in sneak (elves either used to get it, or still get it, I can't remember). If she enters a room sneaking and invisible, there's a strong chance nobody will hear her. However... if I cast flight upon myself (thereby removing the need to sneak quite as much, due to no foot-falls), and then fly into a room, everyone automatically knows I am there. That's the issue. That people can automatically know someone is there. I'd prefer people to give flying invisibles the benefit of the doubt. Not because I'm a power-hungry wizard-player desperate to spy on people (I can use much better spells for that), but because its a general give-and-take thing.

There are several small inconsistencies in code on the MUD, which just rely on people working together and accepting things. As I've said, I don't mind if people say they can spot me when I'm sneaking, flying and invisible (even if logically, it makes absolutely perfect sense that an experienced wizard knows how to fly slowly as well as quickly). Its not that big a thing. But sometimes it'd be nice if people would OOC ignore the mandatory "someone flies in from the <direction>" echo that anyone (even the most sneakiest sneaky rogue in existence) gives off automatically. I will continue to ignore the flying echoes. But don't feel bound to do the same, its the choice of the "victim" as (I think?) we've all agreed on already.

[Vibius]

Disclaimer: Personal Opinion.

Sneak isn't just a skill that allows you to move yourself over the ground without making noise, it also involves another factors as moving slowly enough so when you walk close to someone he doesn't notice the draft caused by your movement, control your breath as you move and such.

So if someone who is flying comes close to enough so he can overhear a conversation at an average voice tone, someone could detect him.

Ideally someone with the Listen skill should be able to notice that there is someone around that can't not be seen but he wouldn't able to tell where, in the other hand someone with (hide/sneak) is trained to control his body and so less prone to be detected just by hearing.

[Kregor]

I do like Glim's idea of making a DC for each type of movement and circumstance, and then using that to determine whether you notice someone entering the room or not. For lack of that, it does take common courtesy on the part of the witness. Though to be frank, it also takes thought on the part of the hide/sneaker as well. We're splitting hairs over the most simple form of someone sneaking into a room hidden, not wanting to be seen/heard. But I'm still fascinated as to the number of players with hide who give in to some instance of trying to treat hide like invisibility, which it isn't.

If you slip up and tickle someone, you're not hidden from them. If you're hidden, you can't pick up objects in the room and make them seem to "float". If you TACKLE someone and run out of the room (no kidding, I've seen it), you are most definitely NOT hidden. If you sneak up on someone hidden, cover over their eyes and say "guess who", they're not necessarily going to know who you are, but you've revealed yourself to every other person in the room, so you have to go vis.

This doesn't mean all smoting is inappropriate, of course, and doesn't mean every action taken while hidden is one that would reveal you. You're in a crowded street, and a hidden individual smotes bumping into you amidst the crowd just before picking your pocket, that is not an unlikely event, considering that the streets in Waterdeep are said to be busy 24/7, and hiding can also entail blending into a crowd.

If you smote whispering from behind a crate in the corner, you don't necessarily have to reveal yourself, but then, if someone smotes walking over to the crate and checking you out, you'd better be prepared to reveal yourself. Common courtesy, and common sense goes on both sides of roleplay