Experience and Training

[Dalvyn]

I'm not going to reply to all posts individually ... some of you suggested interesting ideas (asking for low-level quests, and so on); know that I keep all those in a corner of my mind, so I can come back and look clever later by pretending that it was MY idea.

I know when I first joined this game, I had NO idea what a MUD was, or that there was even such a thing as a text based game, the only reason I played it was because a friend told me to. I didn't go out and RP in the square, I didn't know what good RP was, I was just interested in killing and exploring the world. I think the view you're coming from is someone that's already acquainted with MUD's, they already know a bit about roleplaying and how a MUD works, if you're new to the concept then you just want to explore the game, kill a few baddies, meet a new friend and kill baddies with them, then you start fleshing out your RP. That's how it was for me at least.

What is interesting there is that we should make more effort to help and guide newcomers to the game and to communicate exactly what this game is and what can be done in it.

Look at it from this point, someone brand new just came onto this MUD, granted their attention span is probably pretty short, because there is nothing here at first to entice the player, there aren't any graphics or anything visual like that, so if you're forcing them to kill a ton of dummies over and over just to get up a few levels they're probably going to say 'this sucks' then log off and never come back.

Actually, I think that this argumentation is slightly flawed, because it assumes that the newcomer's only goal is to level up and that this is fine. Let me explain ...

It's all fine for a newcomer to come to FK with "I want to level up and be powerful" as his only goal. Where I start to disagree with you is when you say "so, we should let them level up fast to keep them." My point here is that doing that would be like tricking the newcomer; it's like telling them "yes, yes, get addicted to FK by killing things and feeling powerful, so we can better punish you and mock you later when you fail to roleplay".

In my opinion, the best thing we could do for that newcomer is not really to let him reach his power goal quickly but to show him that it might not be the only interesting goal. Incite the guy to meet other players and try to interact with them. Incite the guy to develop his character's role and to try roleplaying it. Incite the guy to discover the world and make his character act, speak, and think as a living being of that world. THOSE are the goals of playing on FK and telling the newcomer "We are a roleplay-enforced mud; we expect you to do more than just bash mobs" from the start is more fair than "seducing" the guy with easy power.

I'm not sure I managed to get my point across here ... but I tried!

They don't have a chance to explore the awesome world or the various other opportunities, and they're probably not interested in RPing unless they've done it before. And to say 'Well then we don't want those kind of people, because this is a RP enforced mud, and they just want to hack n' slash', they'll eventually get a grasp of RP then start RPing better. The movement points idea is good but it's not only movement points, it's also getting killed easier, and not being able to adventure with other people in lowbie areas cause you're too weak.

Hey, I never said that the current situation is perfect. Far from it ... but I believe in applying the right solution (i.e., make all those things possible at low level and incite newcomers to try them) rather than a quick patch (i.e., make levelling up easier and "trick" them on what FK is really about).

I don't think anyone should be punished for staying in one area and killing the mobs for a few minutes, a few hours or whatever, I mean I could see if someone's doing it for equipment to sell off, now that is a situation that an area IS definitely getting abused, people are taking the equipment that should be for the adventurers that go through their to take as loot and are selling it off to merchants for money. Now the adventuring party that does go through their for legitimate reasons gets nothing. But if you're just killing mobs to train your skills up then I don't see how that could be seen as abuse of an area.

I disagree with your whole point about "let's allow people to camp areas and farm XP", but I am curious as to why you think that farming XP is fine and should be authorized, but farming equipment and money would not be fine?

[Mouat]

I'd like to add my two cents into this...

As somebody that when I started on FK was just a powerleveler that would go kill kill kill (although, lately, I have found myself doing that a few times here and there... but that is for different reasons...), eventually that does get boring and that is most likely why I do not play those other muds that I played in the past. I keep playing Forgotten Kingdoms because of the interaction/RPs, which is something I find easier with my newer chars than my old ones, because I have put more time into their RP/background/and overall behaviours....

I think to keep newcomers (i.e., to keep them playing for the long haul) would be to RP with them.

[Kirkus]

I had missed this earlier...

(*)

I totally agree. There are days when I have walked in, which is pretty rare by its self, to market square. I do the whole bit; smot walking in, looking at vendors, going to the fountain and washing my hands or getting a drink. And then I sit there and if the weathers bad I do a nice little smot or what not to show that i am enjoying the bad weather, which by the way most people totally ignore the weather.

Most of the time I do this hoping someone will either look at me and be like ' Hey he follows Talos, that makes him evil, lets do something about that'....

But sadly I most of the time feel that I have wasted my time, since no one seems to want to rp challenging an evils faith but prance about and just act silly.

Dal, just wanted to say thanks.

[Harroghty]

I think to keep newcomers (i.e., to keep them playing for the long haul) would be to RP with them.

I agree with Mouat. I came from from a MUD some of you may have played before that is pay-for-play, text-based, and very detailed. It is fun but you can only kill the word "an orc" (or whatever), even a well-described one, so many times before you either want more substance or better graphics.

On the flip side: I believe that some hack and slash from time to time is not a bad thing. This is a game and if your idea of fun at the time is to tank through an area then that's fine (within reason and with too many qualifying conditions to list) in my opinion. I also have played the chat-type role-playing story-lines with no dice and no rules. Victory to the fastest and the most descriptive typer, but only if you can find someone who isn't content with the medieval version of Cheers. Man cannot live on smotes alone.

I believe the strength of this game is its versatility. You do what you believe is role-playing (interact with others) as best you can for the benefit of others and because to just wander around killing things is really cheating yourself. That's what WoW and games like that are for - to go gather a small army of people, go kill things, and use something that's not quite the English language to describe it.

We have something better here and I believe we should preserve that balance of qualities. That is what I believe will both attract players and entertain everyone enough to stick around. Cheers.

P.S. Kirkus, if Harroghty sees your character enjoying the weather just once... I'm not sure I can be responsible for his actions.

[Kirkus]

P.S. Kirkus, if Harroghty sees your character enjoying the weather just once... I'm not sure I can be responsible for his actions.

I look forward to the rp.

[Telk]

That's not what I meant Dalvyn. I was pointing out that a large majority of characters that do hop on feel that way. I was actually using myself in that example, when I first hopped on this MUD that's EXACTLY how I felt, I just wanted to kill things and have fun, I wanted to RP but I wanted to explore the world first.

By locking people in the temple and forcing them to go out and RP when they want to explore then they're going to quit, which is going to severely hurt our Pbase of new players. When I first joined this MUD a long time ago if it was this hard to level up, I can guarantee I wouldn't be here today, I would've just quit and went on another game, like I said the attention span of someone new to a MUD is probably pretty short.

What's wrong with a level 25 fighter new to the game that's exploring the world, making friends, killing baddies with friends and RPing? THAT is character development, not locking someone in a temple and telling them "Develop your character before you can go out and explore and kill things" And I'm not saying seduce the character with power and leveling, leveling isn't easy when you don't know the code, let the player discover the world at their own pace, but don't lock them up in a temple and forced to spam kill dummies for 15 hours straight, because killing dummies isn't fun. I'm saying make it easy to get through the first 10 levels, it's always been easy to get through those levels and I can't think of any one instance where the MUD or a character, or player's development was hurt by that fact.

I'm just saying, if you lock people in a temple for a long time and force them to kill dummies just to get level ten they're probably not going to stick around.

I disagree with your whole point about "let's allow people to camp areas and farm XP", but I am curious as to why you think that farming XP is fine and should be authorized, but farming equipment and money would not be fine?

For one, it's not farming experience, it's training your skills, I don't see how that's abusing anything, it's not hurting anyone, it's your own time you're using, and if you're enjoying it why shouldn't they be allowed to? To punish characters for training is just ridiculous. It's not camping, it's killing mobs to level up your skills, what's wrong with that? Why shouldn't that be allowed, where's the harm? I disagree with farming equipment because that IS farming, it's not IC, you're ruining the economy in cities by draining the money, you're taking away from other people's adventure loot, that IS hurting people and hurting the MUD. Training your character is not, and I don't see how it could even be remotely seen as abuse, in fact it enriches the MUD like I said, it makes characters diverse instead of everyone the same power. To be clear, I'm not against killing mobs for coin, that's fine. I'm against killing the same mob over and over again for his sword that you then go back to Waterdeep and sell for 15 platinum each. And I'm not talking about lowbie leather armour so lowbies can get money, or something like that. Case in point, the little pink prince and his palace, I think that's abusing an area.

[Oghma]

I just want to say, that if you have encountered areas or items you feel are gained to easily or abused as in farmed, you should report the incidents to fkbuilders@lists.skynet.ie (for item suggestions or concerns) or fkcomplaints@lists.skynet.ie (for reporting instances of farming or abuse of a particular item or area). By making these teams aware privately, you can go into detail and have no fear of leaking any information that would be found out icly and not oocly otherwise.

Another thing, when you post, please don't attempt to represent a large majority of characters that you think feel the same way, post with the intent of airing your concerns firstly and then if anyone has similar concerns they will also post them. The important thing is to represent yourself and maintain the topic at hand. Economic situations can be resolved, but they are separate from training issues in my opinion. Those that abuse systems repeatedly or farm them for items and reselling are eventually dealt with, it just takes a bit of time.

[Dalvyn]

I'm just saying, if you lock people in a temple for a long time and force them to kill dummies just to get level ten they're probably not going to stick around.

Look, this discussion started well and has a potential to be constructive. But if you rehash the same thing over and over and you misrepresent what I say, I doubt we'll go much further.

I never said I wanted to lock the newbies in a temple and force them to kill dummies for a long time. But, for the sake of simplicity, let's say that it's the current situation. We both agree that this is a problem, but we do not agree on how to fix it.

Your suggestion to fix it is to make it possible to reach level 10 quickly by killing less dummies and to remove the experience modifier I guess, so newbies can get out of there and explore on their own as quickly as possible.

My suggestion is to incite those newbies not to concentrate only on killing mobs, but to present them alternative occupations which actually correspond to what they will do later if they stick around, i.e., make the other options available to them right then, without forcing them to reach level 10 first. It means adding quests, it means adding areas, it means giving more OOC help and advice, it means increasing move points, and so on.

For one, it's not farming experience, it's training your skills, I don't see how that's abusing anything, it's not hurting anyone, it's your own time you're using, and if you're enjoying it why shouldn't they be allowed to? To punish characters for training is just ridiculous.

Exactly the same arguments could be used to justify allowing people to run others through quests, or allowing people to raze and loot whole temples and guilds. The limitation is the unICness of it: killing all the mobs in an area, then waiting for a repop, then re-killing them again, and so on, does not make any IC sense. Besides, allowing this unIC behaviour while training remains the only activity the code rewards means digging deeper the gap that already exists between different categories of players.

[Selveem]

Dalvyn raises a good point. Perhaps there could be some more lower level quests that perhaps do not involve killing. Quests much like the deliveries quest that help introduce the players to new places as well as enforce the value of interacting with other players?

That was one of my favorite quests because it helped me learn Waterdeep more even as a long-time player.

Can quests give experience? If so, could we possibly increase the experience gain for things like the deliveries quest so that low levels benefit more from interacting with other players than killing dummies over and over?

Another thing, when you post, please don't attempt to represent a large majority of characters that you think feel the same way, post with the intent of airing your concerns firstly and then if anyone has similar concerns they will also post them.

I'm going to go ahead and post that I agree with Telk's intentions of doing so. I have often done the same thing and likely for the same reasons as he: to ensure that the staff is aware that other players feel the same way and that this is annoying/upsetting other people.

I can understand the staff's concern with wanting each person to post on their own, but the idea is unrealistic. There are some people who would prefer simply to never post anything negative. Some feel this reflects poorly upon them as a person; maybe it does. Maybe it reflects poorly upon me, too. But, if these concerns are not raised, we run the risk of losing players.

I used to work in a sales for service-based environment. I was always warned "the hardest customer to retain is the one who DOESN'T call you up complaining or being abusive. It's the one that just leaves without giving a reason or a false one." And, honestly, I've found that to be true throughout my time working there.

I think that's something to keep in mind for the staff when they consider their stance on this.

*Edited to include:

Ah, and the quest that you learn about Gods. Perhaps players of the faiths can submit quests to learn more about specific Gods. Much like the Elven Pantheon has. I think this would also be a valuable opportunity for those lower level characters because they do need to learn about faiths and how they will interact with the new characters.

[Raona]

I'm saying make it easy to get through the first 10 levels, it's always been easy to get through those levels and I can't think of any one instance where the MUD or a character, or player's development was hurt by that fact.

Well - let me step forward as an example of this. When I first came, I too had or got the impression that I needed to become powerful enough to stand on my own before I even said "boo" to anyone. I crushed dummies until they evicted me from the temple. I never explored, never spoke with anyone, and perhaps most importantly never died. So when I did venture out, and drowned, it was the "real thing." ...and I didn't know anyone, so I thought I was done for. I never read the helpfiles on death until I...uh...died. I think that's pretty common. My character, as a paladin hopeful, became a relatively high-level warrior with meager skills before she was faithed or became a squire - that made the path forward from there much harder. I genuinely wish that I'd found myself in a situation where I needed help, needed to interact with other players, and would have gotten some good advice, before level 10. Not only would my character have been better served, but I would have gotten hooked sooner: because it was RPing with characters like Gwain, Miriel, Kristopher, and Rilm that sealed the deal and made me really want to play the game.

I'm just saying, if you lock people in a temple for a long time and force them to kill dummies just to get level ten they're probably not going to stick around.

I think the problem is the perception that one is locked in the temple until level 10! For we oldsters, where authorization was slow, perhaps this really was the case - and those of us from that generation may still assume it to be true. But it is not - and I've tried to add bits to the helpfiles telling people that before level 10 is the time to really explore. Perhaps the temple itself also needs some tweaking to push people in that direction. ("You'll learn the etiquette of a dummy if you only interact with dummies, lad/lass. Ye should step out of the temple and have a look about, you know?") I'd be really curious to hear from newer players, and about how they viewed their early levels. I've tried to break the pattern by going into the Font from time to time and encouraging new PCs to come out - and talking to them, to break the perception that older players don't want to be bothered with the new ones. But in honesty, I don't know if it is working.

Ah, you are right, of course, about Express Deliveries. Any idea why the level 10+ restriction was added (it was actually not there initially)? Because some players ran several characters quickly through it, collecting 100+ platinum on each of those characters, then pooling them together for one character they wanted to keep and deleted the other characters. Sad, eh?

Yes! I wonder if perhaps this quest could be set to work only once per *account* per unit time? I know that would probably require hard code, but I really think this is the most useful quest there is for new players, and if policing it is necessary, that might be a way to do it. I know that any quest that a PC discovers, but is told they are not high enough level for, is another reason for them to level up. When it's a quest that the news and other players point you to, all the more so.

Can quests give experience? If so, could we possibly increase the experience gain for things like the deliveries quest so that low levels benefit more from interacting with other players than killing dummies over and over?

They can, and indeed, most of them do. There are also a lot of quests open to pre-level-ten PCs, but you have to dig for them, and many are outside of Waterdeep. Perhaps there are too many that DO present themselves to pre-level-tens that are certain suicide, like the UM quests, though. Lead them not into temptation?

Ah, and the quest that you learn about Gods. Perhaps players of the faiths can submit quests to learn more about specific Gods. Much like the Elven Pantheon has. I think this would also be a valuable opportunity for those lower level characters because they do need to learn about faiths and how they will interact with the new characters.

I believe quests such as these are already in place for many faiths - but again, they are not, for the most part, in Waterdeep. They are also tough "first quests," hard to get through (most require taking notes and giving "the right" responses) if you haven't "learned the ropes" of quests from Express Deliveries.

[Selveem]

Thanks for the help, Raona. I was curious though, if they give perhaps significant enough experience? I think the addition of more of these quests would be very nice; especially for our first-timers. Help them out and let them get to explore the world with all it's complexities. Perhaps some quest that teaches them to dig something up without getting them in any trouble. Quests like the one for learning mining, smelting, etc in Mithril Hall. I loved that about Mithril Hall. It gives so many opportunities to LEARN what the commands are and I don't feel there are enough.

I'm not asking they give any magical equipment. Even mundane stuff is good enough for new characters. But, I do think they should give ample experience.

I've often found that many quests later on will utilize these "commands" like dig in ways one might normally not think to use them. It's important for our new players (even old players) to know this!

[Kirkus]

I think there is a point that needs to be ironed out a bit. I think this is part of what Telk is trying to say. But none the less this is something that I have always noticed.

We have made a turn to favoring and encouraging rp. This is a great, grand and glorious thing. But to do this we have ostracized that other kind of playing where its more solo work going through areas killing monsters. This kind of playing was always there, just as the rp bit was always there.

But think of this, these are the guys/girls that are playing other games like Grand Theft Auto or Morrowind or other games of the sort where you run around and kill stuff and run through quests that involve finding things, killing mob bosses/monsters retrieving lost or stolen items...
A lot of the same stuff we do. We just stripped down the graphics and added text. Do those differences make running around killing things any less of a viable form of entertainment?

If they don't want to be that next key player on the global scheme of things just yet, then by all means let them learn how to kill stuff till they want to learn. Eventually they will.

[Lathander]

to ensure that the staff is aware that other players feel the same way and that this is annoying/upsetting other people.

I can understand the staff's concern with wanting each person to post on their own, but the idea is unrealistic.

I completely disagree and will actively take steps to prevent it. There are no "player representatives" here. You have a thought, you post. You can choose to enter a discussion or not. We want to hear player's individual opinions. Whenever anyone starts posting about "lots of players think X" or "I speak for many people who think Y" one of two things is happening: 1. That player has an exaggerated image of his/her own importance by speaking for other people or 2. The players he "represents" don't feel strongly enough about their own opinions to post them.

I won't derail this thread by continuing the discussion of this subtopic here and plan to open a new thread on the specific issue later this afternoon. However, I am serious when I state that I will actively take steps to prevent this kind of posting. Post what you want, post YOUR opinions, but don't attempt to represent others.

[Roderick]

Raona inspired me to write my opinion as a relatively new player (started in late September of last year). FK was the first MUD that held my attention for more than a week. I came into it with the idea of levelling=power=importance. I want to bring up three examples that really helped me get over my initial fear (and I do mean fear) of actually RP'ing with other real people and in the end hooked me on FK.

First, one of the first people I met was Gesine. I was really hesitant to go to the Square because of my nervousness about interaction as stated above. Gesine hired me to bring her fur and silk from the sewers and she would pay me coin. But, she also RP'd with me. She and I became friends and she introduced me to her other friends which all helped me get over my nervousness. Did I know this at the time? No way! But the trick was Ges also catered to my levelling desire. Kill things and bring her stuff for coin? Sounds great to me!

The second item was when Mearki gave me a piece of armor for helping her do something (memory escapes at the moment). She RP'd with me, which was another confidence boost, but I loved it at that time because with this armor I could now go toe to toe with the bandits! I could actually travel outside the city! Once again, catered to my levelling nature.

The third item was an IMM run quest to the Vault. It was entirely RP based which was great, but there were also great rewards at the end that catered to my levelling nature.

Each of these three items were players and an IMM taking the initiative to go out of their way to RP with me while also catering to my levelling nature. At the time I thought the levelling was the most important result from these, but as I went on I realized the RP was. The main reason I realized this is because in January my RP's kind of dried up. I didn't take the initiative to start a new one and just started levelling. I even got a stern talking to from an IMM for camping an area which was well deserved now that I look back on it. I became burned out and left the MUD for about a month. I could play any number of games on my PC and level until my heart was content. And that is what I did.

A month later I came back just to check in. The mobs were all there, and I could still do the levelling I wanted, but wasn't that what I had left? The real thing that hooked me and has me playing ever since was the folks in the Square that said they had missed me and were happy I was back. I had thought the levelling had hooked me, but in the end, the RP did it. Don't get me wrong, I still love to level Roderick and I still enjoy working on his skills, but I only do that 10% of the time now instead of 80%.

I think it is a great idea to put something in the Font to entice folks to get out and head to the Square, wander the city, etc. Then we can let our players handle it from there. We can depend on the IMM's to hard code quests and such, which would be great, or we could take the initiative ourselves. Here are a couple of examples that jumped into my head.

Just a little while ago I was talking with a young player (plain armor, did not know the wonders of pig platters, etc.) when he asked me if I thought he was ready to tackle the sewers. I took the lazy approach and told him that he needed to keep training on the dummies and he would know. I should have taken him down in the sewers and helped him test his skills. It would have been a great chance for RP and also helped the youngster gain confidence in his abilities.

The other idea I had came from my hesitance to group up with youngsters because Rod sucks up all the experience. But why not take initiative? Why not organize two or three youngsters that I know and arrange for them to head to the Peaks or the Friendly Arms? Rod could read a book in the Inn in case of trouble while the group RP's and also gains experience.

Sorry if this is long winded. I came into FK with a power-levelling mentality but the RP is what has me coming back for more. I think this is a good example of how good RP can break up the monotony of levelling and killing dummies 1 through 10000.

[Dalvyn]

A great read, Roderick, and full of good ideas.

The one idea I'll underline is that, yes, quests and areas can help, but, in the end, what will make people stick around is interaction with other PCs (or, to some extent, with imms). Taking some of your time to hook up newbies together, or give them pointers, or give them a tour of Waterdeep, or point them in the right direction will do much more than any change on the experience gain rate I believe.

[Japcil]

I just want to pop in and say this:

We do not need to rely on the builders or staff for quests or roleplays to reward low level players. If you see a fresh one walk out into the market square with all his plain stuff on. Offer to send him or take him to a place where he can accomplish a task for you and reward him with a purchase from a local armour or weapon shop. And when you help them accomplish this task or they come back to you successful use the same command that grants exp and kismet the game uses, called reward. If you dont like how many quests there are for a lowbie make your own and run it yourself, if it is successful enough apply to add it to an area.

[Travis]

First off, I'd like to give mad props to Telk.
I look for that 'hands-shaking' experience too.
Well said.
Second, I'm hoping this isn't too far off topic...

When I first came to FK, my focus was on twinking my character. I did this successfully and, as some may remember, obnoxiously. It took a long time for me to understand the joys of RP. I started playing at a fairly young age (13) and as I grew older, the concept of really 'playing' my character became more clear. Specifically, I'm talking about my appreciation of role-play facilitated by the developing of Travis as a character within the FK community and the personal balance that should be naturally achieved between RP'ing and training.

Travis was my only active character for years. This was a decision that I made in order to elaborate on my young character. He grew up. So did I. It was a unique experience that cannot be gained from the felling of mobiles. Not to say slaying creatures for a the other sort of experience was not part of that journey, but I had to find a balance. The more I played, the more that balance became weighted with RP. Whether it was sitting in the Market Square arguing with Gwain about God knows what, plotting various highway robberies with Saiden and Grafghur throughout the years, or going on an island-beach adventure with Isaldur... I was hooked. Playing on the MUD turned into something entirely different.

Travis made friends, made enemies, got drunk, made love, went on wild adventures for both good and evil (but ultimately for himself XD), assassinated people, followed Mask, stole things, plotted against Cyricists, and made a name for himself. It was good because it showed me what RP really is and what it /can/ be. In fact, I recently created a new character when I was shown what RP /can't/ be. His days were short-lived.

As some may know, I was recently ban from FK (temporarily?). It makes me sad and I'll tell you, it's not the skills/eq/stats that I miss. No, MUD anywhere and skills will level with much time and little thought. I miss Isaldur, Graf, Gwain, Saiden, Allana, Ynaura, The Maskarran Crew, and many more. Yes, even Lars. I, too, miss Travis. The real experience comes from being your character in an environment unlike any other and having meaningful interactions that define who that character is.

Put in the time you can and find the balance.

As wonderful as it is to have a powerful character, it is even more wonderful to just have that /character/.

[Emrys]

Sure, the RP is very important and what will keep players coming back to FK. But do not knock training, even soloing! I present my strongest argument why this is still a vital part of FK, and should remain so:

<100%hp 93m 75%mv> < Human > Liaghe Sialir
1 player.

<100%hp 93m 75%mv> It is 2 o'clock am, Fifthday, 24th day in the Month of the Melting.
The mud started up at: Thu Apr 17 22:42:53 2008
The system time (GMT): Fri Apr 25 12:30:21 2008

[Zilvryn]

Yeh, I can identify with this a lot. I'm GMT, and I've spent numerous hours alone on the MUD with nothing else to do but grind.

Also, i've spent 20hrs over the last 3 days-ish trying to get from level 6-7 on my wild elf dude, and it's proved -very tiresome-. I've been out to RP, but I got killed by a stirge, 3 times, and then by bandits.

I'm pretty sure this proves you need to be lvl10 to move out of training temples, if you're not starting in WD at least.

[Travis]

I left the temple at level 6 with a low level priest with almost no points in strength or dexterity and had only minor difficulty getting to level eleven. It was boring, yes, it was discouraging at times, yes, but all I really had to do was put in the time.

The trick is to rack up hours as a lowbie before you try any intensive training, then find low level areas to train your exp (ie sewers, dummies, rats, etc.) where your chance of death is much lower.

Sometimes you're going to be the only person logged on. I think most of us have experienced that at one point or another and I cannot agree more that it's a prime opportunity to grind for hours at a time, however, it pays to log your newb when people /are/ on so that you don't spend the first 50 hours of your character trying to gain levels.

Granted, I'm not familiar with what is available for wild elves as far as low level areas go... Though I'm pretty sure they exist. I think something along the lines of a rat mountain was mentioned by Dalvyn? Regardless, there's a reason you can stay in the temple until you're level 10. From my understanding of how code works though, no matter how much you train, the game will not allow you to reach that level until you have a certain amount of hours on your character.