Faith List and IC/OOC

[Nysan]

They have every right to play a fully competant and devoted character that doesn't want to teach about the faith.

Not EVERY character is made to be a faith fanatic and teacher. You can worship without finding and teaching hopefuls.

So true, Nysan has been faith inept for years. Its nothing to do with OOC or IC faith information and everything to do with his current RP involves almost zero interaction with other faith members.

Just cause you do not understand why some folks RP this way or that way doesn't mean it shouldn't be allowed. Those oddballs can be sources of great interaction and stories.

[Horace]

Players have the right to play as a spy and not teach about the faith...
They have every right to play a fully competant and devoted character that doesn't want to teach about the faith.

Not EVERY character is made to be a faith fanatic and teacher. You can worship without finding and teaching hopefuls.

Agreed, they have the right to be a spy. But the idea of being a totally 100% secret agent only accountable to the Emperor is silly (though can still be done with an application and not mechanically being faithed). Having people above your rank knowing you is perfectly reasonable, realistic, and probable.

But I also don't agree that every single faithful should be watching the list and jumping at hopefuls.

I fail to see how this doesn't make the game better. Increased interaction about an in world specific topic. You can't ask for anything better in a roleplay intensive game. It encourages interaction!

If you don't have one and are comfortable teaching, make yourself available. Find the hopeful with your OOC intent to RP with them for faith reasons, but don't run up talking about how the Church told you to find them, the Church told you they're interested.

This is totally acceptable to me, but it does force some awkward decision making where backwards reasoning is likely the norm. When you faith enquire/apply you're effectively, in character, telling that priest you wish to know more. Only if you take the act to an absolute extreme, where you suggest every follower on Toril knows does it become ridiculous...it's entirely reasonable if it's only the major movers and shakers (PC's). I just think it forces players to use ooc mediums to set up how they can construct a story to make the intentions known...totally cool, good story. Problem is, most new players don't have the option of doing something like that. Instead their only option is to just stand around market square saying "Does anyone know a priest of Shar/Mask/Cyric/Bane?" which shouldn't be forced on any PC wishing to join an evil faith.

Let it come up in RP. If they bring it up, they want to go there. If they don't bring it up, they want to keep their faith quiet and between themselves and the FM/however means they're quested throug.

They already brought it up in roleplay when they enquire/applied. Now if you're a super secret spy member like apparently 50% of the player base is, then yes...it'd be prudent to hold off until you're entirely certain their intentions aren't to root you out and stab you in the neck.

There is nothing wrong with OOCly reading the list and OOCly putting your character in a position to help a hopeful, but that information ICly is a priviledge of rank in faith.

Even better though, you could in characterly seek them out and become involved in an in depth roleplay that is entirely without OOC metagaming that apparently only has one draw back, and that is that we have so many spy PC's that are so secret that not even the most important faith members (pc's) have never even heard of their name associated with their god.

I just really see this rule (which apparently is fairly recent, at least since the faith help file) as something that actively works against in game interaction. It'd be so simple just to say you only know those beneath you, for certain, and still be able to keep the double O series of your faith just by accepting that, yes, 10 people on Toril know their allegiance for certain. The difference is so little to these OO's, but it'd so greatly encourage interaction on the other end.

Honestly, to me, it appears like OOC wants for personal PC power because they're in Inner Circle or FM. I know this isn't the case, because I trust the players/admins on this game (if i didn't, i'd quit). I just simply can't grasp the reasoning of how it makes the game better.

And if the answer is "deal with it, it's the way it is" fine, I'm not the kind of person that needs justification for an executive decision - but I am the kind of person who will attempt to make contact about a policy and try to change it for what I see as the better. This is one of those issues.

Seriously admins/imms, it makes no sense on an OOC game aspect, or as an in-character aspect. Just think 'bout 'bout it, rowdy rowdy.

L&R
Tyson

[Oghma]

I was recently asked about this by a player, So I decided to give my view of how faith lists work in my experience.

My perspective is that the faith list is a tool, it shows you who is quested, who is hopeful and who is in charge if you are sufficient faith level to see. However, a faith list is not something your character would necessarily know. Your character would have to take the time to learn information icly before they could claim to know all the information on that list. In ic connection, it exists as a tool for faith leaders to keep track of questeds and be oocly aware of hopefuls who will most likely seek them out. My best advice in the meantime would be to separate faith list from ic rp. Because the only element that I think exists as ic is title application applied to one's personal and professional rp. For example, You know you are inner circle, but Billie B of Mask may not know until you reveal it, because the faith is secretive.

I can go further into detail. For me, the faith list exists as a tool to monitor followers of Oghma, both inactive and active and observe who should be promoted, demoted or remain constant. This is in line with the ic rp of growing into a position or earning the ability to administer. The thing that is not constant has to deal with the fact that Oghmans are not Maskkarans or Selunites are not Shaarites. You would icly know who in one faith to seek through hearsay, but for another, you would know nothing.

That is where the faith list works backwards. It allows you to use mobiles to list your intentions of joining a faith, therein a faith member would be able to consult the list to seek you out, if it is in their rp to. Sometimes faith members are only promoted to higher level positions to do this job, while other members may be brought to other positions. This creates the secondary purpose of the faith list: The reason that there is a faith quest, to create a chance for potential members to be faithed.

What happens here? Well a working faith list is ic in the sense of hierarchy and ooc in the sense of members.

At certain levels faith members are given the powers to damn or bless faith followers, quest or even initiate members. Their knowledge of the faith list rests in two factors icly they would be aware of the following:

-Someone is looking to join the faith
-Though I do not know them icly, I know they will eventually find me or by contrast be directed towards me.

And the hopeful will icly know this:

- There are several faith members that I can seek out, I best ask around about faith members or look for them on my own.
- I should icly seek a faith in a way that shows I am prepared or at least understand the helpfiles associated with a faith (If I am seeking the Maskites, I should look for someone that appears to be a rogue and/or inclined to things a maskite would be inclined to, as opposed to that open Oghman over there)

The faith list, to me is a tool associated with three things, faith and deity helpfiles, ic rp and observation or interaction.

What the faith list is not, is a blackmail tool, a tool to automatically know every member of a faith without rp or a status reward given to the longest served faith members. It is a tool to help players manage faithing with minimal imm or admin aid and to manage ic hierarchy or rp.

Its a confusing process, but that is the best way to explain it for now.

[Mele]

I would think it would be much more akward, and definately atleast a little offensive, to use your list to out someone who works undercover as their RP. Than it would be to OOCly put your character in a position to roleplay with someone on the list.

I don't think all faith members jumping at hopefuls makes the game better, frankly. Yes. It gives interaction. But it -forces- interaction. That's my problem here. Giving people the right to use the faith list IC is taking the right away from people to be "silent followers", and while some do not like it it's a perfectly logical and enjoyable roleplay.

I really hope evils are not going to the Market asking for the active Nightseer, Active Demarchess, Active uh, Lath'lain and not in game Bane Priest.. You're evil, you're not going to find your Priest in the Market. They see you, they'll find you. Go to ZK, WG, etc.

I don't see where 50% of the playerbase is. Because Mask and Shar are secretive faiths suddenly half the playerbase is? I mean come on now.. Why is it so hard to assume in evil faiths there's a lot of trickery and secrets and backstabbing and lies and you should NOT assume the faith list IC? It's not ruining the mud. People who choose this roleplay obviously have stems of roleplay otherwise they would not exist.

I OOCly want my silent follower of an evil faith who is only initiate and has no power to keep the roleplay I've spent time and effort keeping as it is, without even an OOC word that she follows to people I am friends with. If some joe walked up tomorrow and knew I was in the faith because of the list I would be quite angry. That's not for power, she has absolutely no power no position of importance, she's meek and a servant. But it's my RP and I work on it, and just because the code makes a list doesn't mean my character, and my OOC efforts should be penalized. That is a far cry from a ploy for power. A halfdrow that follows an evil god who doesn't really associate with other followers, just does her thing quietly as a silent follower but is devoted and serves excellently. Not a ploy for power. A follower of pain hired to simply gather information. Serves as a devoted through the mental torment caused with said information. A -servant-. Not a ploy for power. What DOES seem like a ploy for power is an initiate being privy to the information of who is a hopeful because codewise the statement is you "announced" it. Initiate, junior member, highly unlikely priviledged to the information of such things in the Church.

I'm babbling. It just baffles me that a form of RP should be shut down because of commands very much ooc with ic echos. Maybe we should just change the echos from "You annouce" to "you are on the faith list of blah now". Or maybe I'm just too thick headed to see a good reason someone should be auto-outed and limited to roleplay as a follower and not a silent follower.

[Oghma]

Code: Select all

Faith Levels
============
Forgotten Kingdoms has a concept of 'faith levels' which tracks your seniority
within a given faith. The various levels are:

Agnostic - Non-committal about which deity to worship
  - This is the default state for all characters.
Enquirer - Enquiring about a particular religion for further information
  - Attain this level by using 'faith enquire <deity name>' in the presence of a 
    follower of the religion you wish to learn more about.
Hopeful  - Would like to join the religion previously enquired about
  - Attain this level by using 'faith apply' in the presence of a follower
    of the religion you wish to join.
Questee  - Undertaking some perilous task to prove your worth
  - A senior member of your religion must initiate you to this level.
Quested  - Have completed the quest assigned to you
  - Attain this level by using 'faith questcomplete' in the presence of a follower
    of the religion you wish to join.
Initiate - A junior member of a faith.
  - A senior member of your religion must initiate you to this level.
Acolyte  - A normal member of a faith.
  - A senior member of your religion must initiate you to this level.
Prelate  - A privileged member of a faith.
  - A senior member of your religion must initiate you to this level.
Inner Circle - A highly privileged member of a faith.
  - A senior member of your religion must initiate you to this level.
Faith Manager - Someone who manages a faith on behalf of their deity
  - Your deity will induct you to this level of the faith.
 (A) Faith                              
Faith
=====
Syntax: faith <enquire|apply|questcomplete|list|demote|advance> 

This is the main command to deal with faith levels. Faith Managers can use
'advance' and 'demote' in addition to 'bless' and 'damn' to manage their
faith. All members of a faith from acolyte up can use 'faith list' to see a
list of all members of their faith at their faith level and those below. [b]All
members of a faith are encouraged to seek out inquirers and help them
understand the key tenets and general nature of the faith.
[/b]

All
members of a faith are encouraged to seek out inquirers and help them
understand the key tenets and general nature of the faith.


The helpfile might be expanded a bit to add 'depending on role play and the nature of the faith itself, because some faiths are harder to access than others.

[Caelnai]

I don't think all faith members jumping at hopefuls makes the game better, frankly. Yes. It gives interaction. But it -forces- interaction. That's my problem here. Giving people the right to use the faith list IC is taking the right away from people to be "silent followers", and while some do not like it it's a perfectly logical and enjoyable roleplay.

Does it have to be always one or the other?

If I was a silent follower like Mele describes, and a faith leader approached me, I could just IC-ly give them the polite brush-off and then OTELL an explanation of my RP, no?

For "mainstream" faiths I think the "IC" faith list has worked great for PCs that were trying to get faithed and hoping (begging!) that anyone with some faith authority will contact them.

With the rarer faiths like Shar, it seem sort of obvious to me that it works differently. There's going to be prior OOC discussion just to facilitate RP. (You'll never find the sneaky buggers otherwise! )

[Mele]

Of COURSE it could work that way, but then it defeats the purpose of what Horace is saying that everyone should know from list to generate RP. Coz that is not generating it, it's a brush off and otell. :D

Alternately, I see NO problem if someone did that. :D