New way of gaining experience

[Xryon]

I know there's been talk in the past of RP vs grinding, and after just talking to a friend, a possible solution occurred to me:

Why not have a system implemented that gives experience based off smote-ing/emote-ing?

I know there's a lot of potential for abuse, but really.. People could just as easily go out and grind for hours and hours to the same affect.

Thoughts?

[Moloch]

I liked this idea the first time it was mentioned in passing on the boards, and still like the idea. Think it would be good for those of us who hate spending all of their time sitting in dungeons, wading through mounds of writhing mobs.

[Selveem]

This wouldn't particularly benefit me on many of my characters (as I prefer to use the standard socials many times rather than have to type everything out), but I do think this would be a good idea. It only furthers the stance that we are an RP MUD and allows our new players to see it right from the start.

You're right, it could be easily abused, but it does sweeten the deal for more people to use it!

[Elenthis]

Ok...I like the idea, and where it comes from, but in practice, it would never work. As Selveem said, he uses socials, and I dont even use "sayto" I smote EVERYTHING. (I really dont know why). I do, however, propose an alternate, but possibly similar solution.
What if "Reward" gave out XP as well as kismet?
I'm not sure what the reward ratio is, but I would like to see this (ish)

Player A rewards player B.
Player A pays with 20 kismet.
Player B recieves 10 kismet and 1/8th of a level.

Whaddaya think?

[Xryon]

I was under the impression reward already gave out exp.. And does it really matter if you use smotes for everything? Smoting is good, in my opinion. Why not reward people for actually RPing their actions? Not to say there is anything wrong with the premade socials either, I use them quite often, but smoting is really YOU doing something..
Back to reward: I don't know about you, but I very rarely see reward used.. at all. Maybe ten times since I have been here, and several were from the gods themselves. Also, people have plans. Rewarding costs you kismet, which could be used to make that expensive new character you've wanted.. Not an easy choice. I try to reward as often as possible (which is especially easy with how often i'm logging now) but I am no exception to the afore mentioned, and my kismet dwindles rather rapidly..
Don't get me wrong, I LOVE reward. I have even suggested such a command on different MUDs. But this, to me anyway, makes more sense.. It's no loss to any player, and it really pays off for you doing things. Even if you don't use socials, it's a simple fix to set an alias for 'nod' to do a preset smote.. I don't know, maybe i'm missing something here, but I don't see really see why this wouldn't work..

[Selveem]

Yeah, I'm sad to admit it too.. I rarely use reward at least until my next character.

I have used it in the past. But being ignorant of how much of my own kismet I am losing compared to how much the other is gaining, I have been a bit shy of using the command.

I do, however, contact people sometimes via otell and tell them when I think they've done a great job.

I feel where you're coming from, Elenthis. Like I said, I rarely use smote (although I do a lot on my Priest because I RP him as being exhausted easily after spells regardless of his high Con).

I do on Selveem sometimes, but not often.

I suppose a quick poll on everyone's usage would be helpful to see statistics if we were interested.

What say you, my brethren?!

[Elenthis]

I hate to be negative, but: As with anything else in the mud, what it the point of using the coder's time to make something new, interesting, and useful, if no one uses it? I can gladly say that I see a few "reward"ings a week or more. I, myself reward about once a week or so, and have recieved rewards on occasion as well. But this mentality of "Better save my Kismet for X, Y, or Z...I dont like it. Here's why:

Player A, has 100 hours in-game on thier human fighter. They are ready to branch out and make a new character because they are intelligent, and VERY good with RP. Many people tell them how good they are, but no one rewards them for it. This player has to wait another 100 hours to make thier new character. (just to go with rogue).

Player B, who COULD have rewarded them has 680 kismet (going for aasimar), but didnt, despite having 11 characters, 4 of which are special classes, 2 of which ar special races, that they NEVER PLAY.

This is obviously a maximised example, but I think you get the point. The point is: Reward good RP!

Back to original topic: I think a bit more XP, would be nice for Reward command, even if its at the cost of a few kismet.

[Xryon]

The comment on reward wasn't meant to sound like I am against it.. But I know for a fact it happens. I don't even really consider it being selfish, honestly. You spend a lot of time roleplaying, you deserve to use your points how you want. I would be ecstatic if more people used it.. But not everyone is, even if it does give experience to other characters. I don't really see how, even if reward was expanded to include exp (which, checking the helpfile, it does) this would detract from smoting giving it also. Could you elaborate a bit further on this, please?

[Elenthis]

Because by defenition, smoting includes anything from good RP, to poor RP. It includes when your character itches himself, and when he sings a 20-minute ballad. There's no check-system in XP for smoting, and there really cant be, realistically. I'm not bashing your idea, because I think its a good one, and on the right track. I just dont think it can ever reasonably work. Besides. "reward" and "you are enlightened by the gods" is already a reward system for smoting .

[Xryon]

I agree with you, and if enacted, it would probably need to be logged. It's pretty easy to tell if someone is doing something simply to cheat the system and gain experience. I think this is a fairly easy system to reward RP.. I might be wrong, but it seems a viable solution to me, though I welcome more discussion.

In response to Selveem's post: I wiill be testing later to determine the different amounts of kismet gained. I'll either post them here, or, if this is frowned upon.. Well, i'll let it remain a mystery.

[Selveem]

Just out of curiosity, does that mean by definition anyone who has rarely or never gotten a 'reward' is a poor roleplayer?

It may just be my opinion as one who works in a database all day fixing things and trying to prevent people from 'forgetting' proper methods and procedures, but I don't believe you can 'code' a one-size-fits all solution against abuse.

Sure, a query can poll how many times a command is used within a limited amount of period and how much a character amassed in exp within a certain range of time, but in the end it is the users' responsibility to ensure their own behavior.

We all want to impress upon new players and old ones alike that we are an RP MUD. Why, then, is the bulk of exp gained from bashing mobs?

[Horace]

I don't usually post unless I'm really against something, or think it'd work well - but Xyron asked me to

FK is DnD. DnD is an adventure genre. I think XP should stick to adventure things. A baker shouldn't be level 50 because they rp a lot.

Adventure is the genre - mudding is the medium - roleplay intensive is the qualifier. Roleplaying isn't the genre, adventure is. Though I'm not against alternate ways for gaining XP, I just think they should be adventure focused.

[Saranya]

Back to original topic: I think a bit more XP, would be nice for Reward command, even if its at the cost of a few kismet.

An excellent idea! (Full disclosure: I've made this same suggestion a few times.)

I'm not wild about rewarding smotes by code. I smote all the time because it's easier to send commands with my reader client. Should I be gaining experience when I'm alone for that? I'd rather we tweak the reward command so that people (not code) can be the check on whether the smotes are worth anything. Maybe less of a kismet penalty to encourage rewards? As an abuse check, I'm sure we could automate a log count to check reward spamming.

I'll offer up again my suggestion that we tweak the level-cap for awarding experience in forms. The other day someone refused to form with my test fighter in Waterdeep sewers after OOC-ly discovering I was six levels above her. She went her separate way. With a small player-base it's hard enough to find people to form with without that.

FWIW, as long as being an adventurer isn't penalized, I don't have a problem with encouraging "MUSH-type" characters. Heck, I'm all for a baker class if it gets more cookies in the game!

*codes up the +2 Spatula of Doom.*

[Namic]

Alot of good discussion here and I admit I do not reward enough people as I should, I do see alot of good rp but often times it slips my mind to reward them till after the fact. As I was reading this I got a random idea, what if a new/differant reward system was implemented along side the current one that gave out xp only? So if the rp was extremely good then you could reward with xp and kismet if you wish to spend the kismet, or you could use this other reward system to just reward xp for good rp. Plus it would come in handy for those players who have a fair amout of kismet but are saveing it for something special or the ones who just dont want to give away kismet. In theory it would increase the rewarding of good rp because then players wouldnt have to be so concerned about kismet.

[Jaenoic]

I believe the trouble with having a system of rewarding that doesn't cost the rewarder anything is that it leaves much room for abuse. Bob and Steve are friends OOCly and Steve makes a new character. Steve wants to level quickly so he has Bob repeatedly reward him(at no penalty to Bob) to gain the experience.

At least that is the reason I believe why the current rewarding system takes kismet to give kismet.

[Xryon]

Is that really that much of a concern, honestly..? It's just as easy to idle in the Square for hours at a time, or go fight things over and over again..

[Nysan]

And now, for another Nysan off the wall idea...

What about characters that do not need/want exp? Someone that has a max level character or someone that is happy being mid-30s or the like?

If we are talking alternate means to character improvement, I would much rather options. Make a point system out of it. So many points equals so much exp or a gain in skill/spell/weapon/trade of choice. Exp isn't the only way to improve characters after all. No feats or stats, since that is already covered under glory and unlike kismet are gained through IC actions rather than 'just logging in'.

Course, this is all wishful thinking. Such systems are great on paper but fail in practice. Fun to dream though...

[Harroghty]

FK is DnD. DnD is an adventure genre. I think XP should stick to adventure things. A baker shouldn't be level 50 because they rp a lot.

Adventure is the genre - mudding is the medium - roleplay intensive is the qualifier. Roleplaying isn't the genre, adventure is. Though I'm not against alternate ways for gaining XP, I just think they should be adventure focused.

I agree with Horace (for once, yes). I think that rewarding role-playing with experience is flawed for a couple of reasons:
(1) This is an adventuring game. You learn adventuring by adventuring.
(2) The possibility for abuse is astronomical.
(3) Role-play is such a subjective thing. You could be smoting simple commands and gain experience for being a fast typer! Role-play, sure; adventure, sure; typing, no.
(4)Most importantly: you run a serious risk of cheapening role-play as it is. Instead of encouraging new, better, more frequent role-play detail you begin -I believe- to invite people to smote nonsense in order to advance.

If the goal of this is to encourage role-play and reward it then I will remind you that such mechanisms are already in place: characters receive an experience bonus for traveling and fighting in a group. The point has been raised about mundane occupations for characters and them advancing levels and skills in those occupations but, I refer to Horace's comment again about this being an adventure game, not a baking, knitting, or smithing game. These are all valid, acceptable, and encouraged hobbies or professions but each character is always, I believe, an adventurer first and rewards should follow that basic premise.

[Lerytha]

I think I've said this before, but I'll say it again. The MUD I played before I came here (Dragon's Fang, a Wheel of Time roleplay) had a peculiar way of doing things. Their "code" achievements (so, the quests they'd done, the mobs they'd killed) meant nothing in terms of IC (although the code achievements were often used to back up IC roleplay). They had a toggle command, so you could "go OOC" to do levelling and mobkilling, or toggle IC, so you walk around IC and find someone to roleplay with.

What happened then, is, as long as you were emoting/smoting with more than yourself, you gained experience. If you just stood there emoting to yourself, you'd look funny, but would gain no experience whatsoever. As soon as someone starts responding to you, you can gain experience.

I would advocate something like that (obviously not the toggle IC/toggle OOC commands, though, I like it all being IC here).

And now another point:

You need to get experience by adventuring. I really don't think so. People can train and practice and become great warriors without adventuring. We've all read countless books where a wizard has studied for years and gained great power, without ever adventuring once. I think we have fallen into the trap of thinking that adventuring = experience. Nope! Adventuring = loot!

Just think about it. If we could gain experience for roleplaying, then whenever people need to "go level", they could just roleplay. Travel about, explore with a friend. And yes, maybe kill things, or maybe not. The way it is now, penalises full roleplayers who should be able to improve their skills and the like after years of roleplaying. And we just need to stop thinking about adventuring being how we level. Adventuring is how we get our gold, our nifty magic items. Plus, it might stop the unrealistic thing where you kill all the mobs, do the quest, get the magic item... and then go back six hours later, not for the stuff, just to level? Not that that's a problem, and that could still be done under any new system, but... well... while people are out mob-bashing, we're not doing that much roleplaying.

And heck, if we're desperate not to have "Square" roleplay, maybe put some sort of code that halves the amount of roleplay experience you get in the Market?

[Atheliyan]

I have another idea for how to get experience. What about for quests. I mean, I know we get glory for quests, which is great, but sometimes I like to stop leveling all together and spent hours just roleplaying and doing quests. I think it would be nice if I were gaining experience for doing quests. Just a thought