Wands/Staves
Re: Wands/Staves
Wait.. you're not worried about mass-production, you're worried about Bob the wizard with an inventory of 14 wands wandering around casting them all in some scripted twink deal? That I understand. Been a while since I used a wand (long story regarding my wizzy), but I seem to remember a lag attached to the zap/branish commands (the commands for using wands/staves). If there isn't and I am foggy again, there definately should be one coded around the time staff/wand making are put into place. Wouldn't be hard to do and completely justified considering balance.
Cannon roughly means what is considered official story. The definition is likely a bit more wordy, but thats the quick version.
How is exp loss cannon? Creating magical items, like wands and staves, is physically, mentally, and sometimes spiritually taxing. Thats well documented in source books, but the crafter usually recovers (unless they screw up and die or maim themselves in the process), which is why we were going down the path of heavy stamina hit and maybe that str/con/int debuff if you fail to craft. Exp loss is a lasting hit, cannot recover from that with rest or healing, unless it something like drained levels via energy drain or similar spell like effect. All for a well visible sign of stress caused by crafting, but it should be something the player can recover from.
The random spell idea is a neat idea. Still scratching my head on how that could be coded and how it makes sense IC. A wizard of 40+ levels wouldn't prone to let the wrong spell to go off. If this was a skill a wizard got from creation, would make more sense. I could definately see a lvl 12 wizard trying to make a wand slip up and let off a fireball in the room rather than connect a burning hands spell to a wand.
Brew has that explosion effect on failure, damages the character and its equipment... think scribe does as well, but none of my folks have it, so I wouldn't know for sure. Does wonders to show the lethal effects of messing up potion making. Personally, I hate repeating effects so I was suggesting that str/con/int debuff for failure rather than a similar explosion effect. Something new rather than same old, same old. *shrug*
Now, the spell going off in the character's face has merit. Question that pops in my head is what about the non-damaging spells? What if it was an armor spell or ice shield? Perhaps simplify it to one universal effect per school instead? Like all necromancy spell failures casts blind on the crafter.
Cannon roughly means what is considered official story. The definition is likely a bit more wordy, but thats the quick version.
How is exp loss cannon? Creating magical items, like wands and staves, is physically, mentally, and sometimes spiritually taxing. Thats well documented in source books, but the crafter usually recovers (unless they screw up and die or maim themselves in the process), which is why we were going down the path of heavy stamina hit and maybe that str/con/int debuff if you fail to craft. Exp loss is a lasting hit, cannot recover from that with rest or healing, unless it something like drained levels via energy drain or similar spell like effect. All for a well visible sign of stress caused by crafting, but it should be something the player can recover from.
The random spell idea is a neat idea. Still scratching my head on how that could be coded and how it makes sense IC. A wizard of 40+ levels wouldn't prone to let the wrong spell to go off. If this was a skill a wizard got from creation, would make more sense. I could definately see a lvl 12 wizard trying to make a wand slip up and let off a fireball in the room rather than connect a burning hands spell to a wand.
Brew has that explosion effect on failure, damages the character and its equipment... think scribe does as well, but none of my folks have it, so I wouldn't know for sure. Does wonders to show the lethal effects of messing up potion making. Personally, I hate repeating effects so I was suggesting that str/con/int debuff for failure rather than a similar explosion effect. Something new rather than same old, same old. *shrug*
Now, the spell going off in the character's face has merit. Question that pops in my head is what about the non-damaging spells? What if it was an armor spell or ice shield? Perhaps simplify it to one universal effect per school instead? Like all necromancy spell failures casts blind on the crafter.
-Gilain- -Trilev- -Siros-
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Re: Wands/Staves
Costs xp to make a lot of stuff, according to canon. For the record, canon has a lot less to do with story, and a lot more to do with the established reality of the world, from a gaming perspective.
Craft Wondrous Item [Item Creation]
Prerequisite
Caster level 3rd.
Benefit
You can create any wondrous item whose prerequisites you meet. Enchanting a wondrous item takes one day for each 1,000 gp in its price. To enchant a wondrous item, you must spend 1/25 of the item’s price in XP and use up raw materials costing half of this price.
You can also mend a broken wondrous item if it is one that you could make. Doing so costs half the XP, half the raw materials, and half the time it would take to craft that item in the first place.
Some wondrous items incur extra costs in material components or XP, as noted in their descriptions. These costs are in addition to those derived from the item’s base price. You must pay such a cost to create an item or to mend a broken one.
Craft Wondrous Item [Item Creation]
Prerequisite
Caster level 3rd.
Benefit
You can create any wondrous item whose prerequisites you meet. Enchanting a wondrous item takes one day for each 1,000 gp in its price. To enchant a wondrous item, you must spend 1/25 of the item’s price in XP and use up raw materials costing half of this price.
You can also mend a broken wondrous item if it is one that you could make. Doing so costs half the XP, half the raw materials, and half the time it would take to craft that item in the first place.
Some wondrous items incur extra costs in material components or XP, as noted in their descriptions. These costs are in addition to those derived from the item’s base price. You must pay such a cost to create an item or to mend a broken one.
Listen up! People pay good money to see this movie! When they go out to a theater they want cold sodas, hot popcorn, and no monsters in the projection booth! Do I have to come up there myself? Do you think the Gremsters can stand up to the Hulkster?
Re: Wands/Staves
Eh, story was bad wording, but yea whatever is considered officially a part of the source material and not something Billy made up in his basement.
Not arguing exp loss isn't cannon for certain magic ventures, quite a bit can be dangerous in the research and development end of wizardry. Was questioning exp loss being a part of crafting wands, staves, and similar items being cannon. I cannot think of a single novel or source book entry that would suggest an exp loss effect attached to wand/staff crafting. Physically, mentally, spiritually draining? Yes, but it was something they could recover from. The closest thing I can think of to exp loss was a wizard that cut a few years off his life-span to craft a very special wand, a wand of lichdom.
Don't get me wrong, I maybe mistaken. I don't read everything and some of the new stuff is banned from my shelves cause I do not agree with some of the new edition stuff. Can anyone link something, in the edition rules FK works with, about wands/staffs causing some kind of exp drain during creation? Wouldn't be the first time my info is outdated... (Or are you trying to tell me wonderous items is supposed to be staff/wands?)
Not arguing exp loss isn't cannon for certain magic ventures, quite a bit can be dangerous in the research and development end of wizardry. Was questioning exp loss being a part of crafting wands, staves, and similar items being cannon. I cannot think of a single novel or source book entry that would suggest an exp loss effect attached to wand/staff crafting. Physically, mentally, spiritually draining? Yes, but it was something they could recover from. The closest thing I can think of to exp loss was a wizard that cut a few years off his life-span to craft a very special wand, a wand of lichdom.
Don't get me wrong, I maybe mistaken. I don't read everything and some of the new stuff is banned from my shelves cause I do not agree with some of the new edition stuff. Can anyone link something, in the edition rules FK works with, about wands/staffs causing some kind of exp drain during creation? Wouldn't be the first time my info is outdated... (Or are you trying to tell me wonderous items is supposed to be staff/wands?)
-Gilain- -Trilev- -Siros-
You do not need to change the world, merely leave it a little better than how you found it.
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Re: Wands/Staves
Craft Wand [Item Creation]
Prerequisite
Caster level 5th.
Benefit
You can create a wand of any 4th-level or lower spell that you know. Crafting a wand takes one day for each 1,000 gp in its base price. The base price of a wand is its caster level × the spell level × 750 gp. To craft a wand, you must spend 1/25 of this base price in XP and use up raw materials costing one-half of this base price. A newly created wand has 50 charges.
Any wand that stores a spell with a costly material component or an XP cost also carries a commensurate cost. In addition to the cost derived from the base price, you must expend fifty copies of the material component or pay fifty times the XP cost.
-----------
Keep in mind, the novels don't represent anything as far as mechanics go - it's all just story. The only thing that matters in mechanics is the written mechanics, regardless of whatever happens in the novels.
Prerequisite
Caster level 5th.
Benefit
You can create a wand of any 4th-level or lower spell that you know. Crafting a wand takes one day for each 1,000 gp in its base price. The base price of a wand is its caster level × the spell level × 750 gp. To craft a wand, you must spend 1/25 of this base price in XP and use up raw materials costing one-half of this base price. A newly created wand has 50 charges.
Any wand that stores a spell with a costly material component or an XP cost also carries a commensurate cost. In addition to the cost derived from the base price, you must expend fifty copies of the material component or pay fifty times the XP cost.
-----------
Keep in mind, the novels don't represent anything as far as mechanics go - it's all just story. The only thing that matters in mechanics is the written mechanics, regardless of whatever happens in the novels.
Listen up! People pay good money to see this movie! When they go out to a theater they want cold sodas, hot popcorn, and no monsters in the projection booth! Do I have to come up there myself? Do you think the Gremsters can stand up to the Hulkster?
Re: Wands/Staves
Oh, I realize. I bounce between novels and source books alot when looking for info. Where did you pull that out of? Curious if I don't have the source book or if I missed the entry or what the heck happened there. Anyways, its cannon to drain exp. I'm flawed, what else is new?
Still don't think its a good thing to bring over to FK, especially when brew and scribe already give exp. Just feels like an odd choice to go the positive way on the skills two classes have access and and the negative way on the skills only one class has access to. Would prefer all four have a constant rule regarding exp... either all give, all take, or all do nothing. The 'mass-production" concern already is on shaky ground since it did not occur with brew/scribe... well, after they were taken off the NPC buy list years back that is. As long as we learn from that mistake and keep wands/staves from the NPC buy list from the start, there shouldn't be a repeat of history. *shrug*
Still don't think its a good thing to bring over to FK, especially when brew and scribe already give exp. Just feels like an odd choice to go the positive way on the skills two classes have access and and the negative way on the skills only one class has access to. Would prefer all four have a constant rule regarding exp... either all give, all take, or all do nothing. The 'mass-production" concern already is on shaky ground since it did not occur with brew/scribe... well, after they were taken off the NPC buy list years back that is. As long as we learn from that mistake and keep wands/staves from the NPC buy list from the start, there shouldn't be a repeat of history. *shrug*
-Gilain- -Trilev- -Siros-
You do not need to change the world, merely leave it a little better than how you found it.
You do not need to change the world, merely leave it a little better than how you found it.
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Re: Wands/Staves
it's been that way ever since feats were introduced - you'll find them all the player handbooks that include feats.
Listen up! People pay good money to see this movie! When they go out to a theater they want cold sodas, hot popcorn, and no monsters in the projection booth! Do I have to come up there myself? Do you think the Gremsters can stand up to the Hulkster?
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Re: Wands/Staves
Something that also "balances" wands and one of the reasons wizards don't go around with an unlimited supplies of wands is the fact that wands have a limited spellcaster level meaning that a fireball that has been cast through a wand constructed by a PC will have always much less punch than if a wizard had cast it.
Re: Wands/Staves
Personally speaking, I have no problems getting exp when actually trying on my wizard. So, I'd much rather it take exp. The exp received from grouping with people and going out on adventures is more than enough for me from what I've seen.
I realize this is not the same for everyone and a devoted crafter may not be built as hardily as an Invoker of the past had to have been. It's just my personal preference in comparison to having very weak wands/staves. In any case, I'm sure if we put the kind of work required for say... Armorsmithing on crafting wands and staves, I doubt we'd see a ridiculous influx of them.
Say..
"requires PC mined obsidian"
"requires PC mined diamond"
"requires shining pink gem"
"requires a piece of wood from woodworking"
"requires # of spells memorized and associated components readily available"
Things like these.
I don't like jumping through hoops but I can certainly see where this would get ridiculous if I were to have a staff that gives 20 GM-level stoneskins on it on my invoker and all I had to do was blast repeatedly and brandish every three rounds or so.
I realize this is not the same for everyone and a devoted crafter may not be built as hardily as an Invoker of the past had to have been. It's just my personal preference in comparison to having very weak wands/staves. In any case, I'm sure if we put the kind of work required for say... Armorsmithing on crafting wands and staves, I doubt we'd see a ridiculous influx of them.
Say..
"requires PC mined obsidian"
"requires PC mined diamond"
"requires shining pink gem"
"requires a piece of wood from woodworking"
"requires # of spells memorized and associated components readily available"
Things like these.
I don't like jumping through hoops but I can certainly see where this would get ridiculous if I were to have a staff that gives 20 GM-level stoneskins on it on my invoker and all I had to do was blast repeatedly and brandish every three rounds or so.
This land shall come to the God who knows the answer to War. -Ninety-Nine Nights
Re: Wands/Staves
Yes, thank you for quoting the PHB in regards to show the XP loss for crafting items of that nature. I also believe that people will be MUCH more hesitant to mass craft wands and staves if there is lost XP. Yes I believe it to be true, they can easily gain it back; though I also believe it would add to roleplay! Perhaps your level 50 wizard will want to venture out more with younger, upcoming, characters still exploring the world.
Though I wonder... If the loss of XP happens couldn't you... "un do" your character back 10 levels? Example:
You gain 60 glory and throw it all in con. You set yourself back 10 levels and gain that much more HP...
Just a thought
On this topic:
Though I wonder... If the loss of XP happens couldn't you... "un do" your character back 10 levels? Example:
You gain 60 glory and throw it all in con. You set yourself back 10 levels and gain that much more HP...
Just a thought
On this topic:
I like that idea! Though, again the coding issue, isn't there a counter spell for each buff spell? weaken and bulls, etc etc. That could be done for most buffs.Nysan wrote:Now, the spell going off in the character's face has merit. Question that pops in my head is what about the non-damaging spells? What if it was an armor spell or ice shield? Perhaps simplify it to one universal effect per school instead? Like all necromancy spell failures casts blind on the crafter.
Erwyth
Feraael
Halafae
Feraael
Halafae
Re: Wands/Staves
Technically you can already do that with mobs with draining attacks. From what I understand, Constitution was supposedly changed a while back to be retroactive. I have no access to code to verify, but I would hope that's the case now.Erwyth wrote:Though I wonder... If the loss of XP happens couldn't you... "un do" your character back 10 levels? Example:
You gain 60 glory and throw it all in con. You set yourself back 10 levels and gain that much more HP...
At any rate, I suspect anyone attempting to abuse FK mechanics like that is more likely to be deleted than get away with it.
This land shall come to the God who knows the answer to War. -Ninety-Nine Nights
Re: Wands/Staves
A bit scattered at the moment, please bare with me...
Don't think anyone is asking for GM level spells in wands/staves. The balance horror from that would be endless. Touched on that on the first page with that crafter level - wand/staff level chart actually.
Haven't really talked about it before, but I don't think wands/staves should simply take "wood + spell" to craft. Additional components decrease the fear of mass-production and makes wands/staves less likely to be spammed. Ages ago, before time was time, my drow wizard attention the Menzo wizard school and one of the quests involved gathering gem powder, bat guano, and I think a few other items to make a wand in a magical item class. Been literally years since I completed the quest so its a bit fuzzy but thats what I picture in wand/staff creation. Not just wood and a meditation cycle, but a little more invested to really show the player they are making something special rather than just a wizard's version of a bow and arrow.
Last thing I want to jump on is the comment that draining exp = RP. Can't stand that. Nothing wrong with the drain exp point. It has source backing and can fit in FK. But if we are putting it in to generate RP, we're doing it for the wrong reasons. That's forcing RP and actions on players, in my eyes. To me, thats along the lines of forcing my dwarf out of the mines so he can be more social. *shudder* Level 50s should go out with younglings cause they WANT to, not cause code forces them to. Irritated people make poor RP companions.
Drain spells and death exp loss already drop people in levels, at least it has the last time one of my "just over the level" characters died to a big lizard. I would like to meet the level 40+ wizard player that would drain him/herself back to lvl 10 over a con bump that may or may not be possible with current code, that person is more unhinged than I am and thats a rarity. Even if possible, it smells like code-abuse to me and doubt that character would see level 40 again.
Don't think anyone is asking for GM level spells in wands/staves. The balance horror from that would be endless. Touched on that on the first page with that crafter level - wand/staff level chart actually.
Haven't really talked about it before, but I don't think wands/staves should simply take "wood + spell" to craft. Additional components decrease the fear of mass-production and makes wands/staves less likely to be spammed. Ages ago, before time was time, my drow wizard attention the Menzo wizard school and one of the quests involved gathering gem powder, bat guano, and I think a few other items to make a wand in a magical item class. Been literally years since I completed the quest so its a bit fuzzy but thats what I picture in wand/staff creation. Not just wood and a meditation cycle, but a little more invested to really show the player they are making something special rather than just a wizard's version of a bow and arrow.
Last thing I want to jump on is the comment that draining exp = RP. Can't stand that. Nothing wrong with the drain exp point. It has source backing and can fit in FK. But if we are putting it in to generate RP, we're doing it for the wrong reasons. That's forcing RP and actions on players, in my eyes. To me, thats along the lines of forcing my dwarf out of the mines so he can be more social. *shudder* Level 50s should go out with younglings cause they WANT to, not cause code forces them to. Irritated people make poor RP companions.
Drain spells and death exp loss already drop people in levels, at least it has the last time one of my "just over the level" characters died to a big lizard. I would like to meet the level 40+ wizard player that would drain him/herself back to lvl 10 over a con bump that may or may not be possible with current code, that person is more unhinged than I am and thats a rarity. Even if possible, it smells like code-abuse to me and doubt that character would see level 40 again.
-Gilain- -Trilev- -Siros-
You do not need to change the world, merely leave it a little better than how you found it.
You do not need to change the world, merely leave it a little better than how you found it.
Re: Wands/Staves
Can I say for the record, I disagree with a wizard losing XP? The system in D&D 3E is built on skill points and spells that increase potency with levels. This is largely different to the FK system. Although there is a nominal improvement in FK with levels, it is largely made less effective by the skilllevel system we have. This makes XP vital, far more vital in a sense, than it is in D&D.
It is all very well to copy exactly from the Player's Handbook, without bearing in mind the potential extra difficulties a verbatim addition to the game would cause.
I accept there should be complex requirements to it.
a) Maybe a wizard can choose what material to craft it from? Maybe a metal-constructed wand/stave could be more powerful, but (obviously) harder for a wizard to construct. Maybe a wood-constructed wand/stave is less powerful. This means a wizard could flood the market as it were, with moderate-level spells in wooden wands, but if they want the more potent magics, they would need metal?
b) I think limiting the kind of spells is good, as well. I'd fully subscribe to the list Nysan posted earlier.
c) I am, however, of the opinion that adding lots of components would not be fair. As a wizard player who can both brew and scribe, I will say for the record it can be one of the most costly (no, sorry, it is THE most costly) trade in the game. You have to "cast" the spell three times for each scroll you scribe. So, someone wants to buy a "nondetection" scroll off you? Cool, but you had better have around fifty-sixty (if you're lucky) platinum to spare, before even thinking of scribing a scroll correctly. Because it EATS your components like a black hole eats existence (in sci-fi, anyway, not sure about it in terms of physics). This is not a moan, at all, because by damn we wizards charge for that scroll a hefty sum. However, largely, those who use wands would be a rogue, or a wizard. Maybe a priest, but not sure about that. The market for wands/staves will not be AS great as imagined. Yes, they are useful in a tight spot, but they hardly replace the versatility of a wizard's ACTUAL magic. Especially because (practically) you would need to stop casting, "get wand bag" "hold wand" "zap", by which time you could potentially have "cast magic missile" three times. I say this, because the presence of wands in the game would not unbalance the game as much as imagined (or perhaps, hoped). Because of the lack of unbalancing, I don't think we NEED to make the cost overly expensive. I would rather make the cost RP-expensive. That is, maybe you have to gather odd (but cheap) things for different schools?
- mirrors for abjurations?
- a fire for evocations?
- a lich skull for necromancy?
- a gem for divination?
- etc, etc (basically in addition to the wood/metal "object" of "wand" or "staff")
d) I also strongly disagree in there being a lag for wand/stave use. That's the whole point of wand use! It saves time in battle when you're out of spells because they get cast instantly. If it actually takes longer after zapping to recover, than it does to cast spells, why not just flee, memorize new spells, then attack again?
Am welcome to be disagreed with here, of course.
It is all very well to copy exactly from the Player's Handbook, without bearing in mind the potential extra difficulties a verbatim addition to the game would cause.
I accept there should be complex requirements to it.
a) Maybe a wizard can choose what material to craft it from? Maybe a metal-constructed wand/stave could be more powerful, but (obviously) harder for a wizard to construct. Maybe a wood-constructed wand/stave is less powerful. This means a wizard could flood the market as it were, with moderate-level spells in wooden wands, but if they want the more potent magics, they would need metal?
b) I think limiting the kind of spells is good, as well. I'd fully subscribe to the list Nysan posted earlier.
c) I am, however, of the opinion that adding lots of components would not be fair. As a wizard player who can both brew and scribe, I will say for the record it can be one of the most costly (no, sorry, it is THE most costly) trade in the game. You have to "cast" the spell three times for each scroll you scribe. So, someone wants to buy a "nondetection" scroll off you? Cool, but you had better have around fifty-sixty (if you're lucky) platinum to spare, before even thinking of scribing a scroll correctly. Because it EATS your components like a black hole eats existence (in sci-fi, anyway, not sure about it in terms of physics). This is not a moan, at all, because by damn we wizards charge for that scroll a hefty sum. However, largely, those who use wands would be a rogue, or a wizard. Maybe a priest, but not sure about that. The market for wands/staves will not be AS great as imagined. Yes, they are useful in a tight spot, but they hardly replace the versatility of a wizard's ACTUAL magic. Especially because (practically) you would need to stop casting, "get wand bag" "hold wand" "zap", by which time you could potentially have "cast magic missile" three times. I say this, because the presence of wands in the game would not unbalance the game as much as imagined (or perhaps, hoped). Because of the lack of unbalancing, I don't think we NEED to make the cost overly expensive. I would rather make the cost RP-expensive. That is, maybe you have to gather odd (but cheap) things for different schools?
- mirrors for abjurations?
- a fire for evocations?
- a lich skull for necromancy?
- a gem for divination?
- etc, etc (basically in addition to the wood/metal "object" of "wand" or "staff")
d) I also strongly disagree in there being a lag for wand/stave use. That's the whole point of wand use! It saves time in battle when you're out of spells because they get cast instantly. If it actually takes longer after zapping to recover, than it does to cast spells, why not just flee, memorize new spells, then attack again?
Am welcome to be disagreed with here, of course.
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Cacie asks Larethiel 'Did that air just bow to you?
--Sir Winston Churchill
"This place is boring, I'm gonna go eat whatever I can find laying on the ground"
-- Hoildric
Cacie asks Larethiel 'Did that air just bow to you?
- Alvirin
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Re: Wands/Staves
Most wands in D&D are made from wood, and since in FK there are different types of wood (and If recall correctly different types of quality for wood as well) we have enough variables to affect the outcome, this would give some use to the relatively unused logging trade.a) Maybe a wizard can choose what material to craft it from? Maybe a metal-constructed wand/stave could be more powerful, but (obviously) harder for a wizard to construct. Maybe a wood-constructed wand/stave is less powerful. This means a wizard could flood the market as it were, with moderate-level spells in wooden wands, but if they want the more potent magics, they would need metal?
Also most wands are tipped by a gem in the end, this might be another variable to this trade, perhaps each school of magic could have associated certain gems from less to more power, something that would make mining more interesting as well.
In D&D all spells up to fourth level (included) can have created a wand that casts them, it seems a fair compromise.b) I think limiting the kind of spells is good, as well. I'd fully subscribe to the list Nysan posted earlier.
As first replyc) I am, however, of the opinion that adding lots of components would not be fair. As a wizard player who can both brew and scribe, I will say for the record it can be one of the most costly (no, sorry, it is THE most costly) trade in the game. You have to "cast" the spell three times for each scroll you scribe. So, someone wants to buy a "nondetection" scroll off you? Cool, but you had better have around fifty-sixty (if you're lucky) platinum to spare, before even thinking of scribing a scroll correctly. Because it EATS your components like a black hole eats existence (in sci-fi, anyway, not sure about it in terms of physics). This is not a moan, at all, because by damn we wizards charge for that scroll a hefty sum. However, largely, those who use wands would be a rogue, or a wizard. Maybe a priest, but not sure about that. The market for wands/staves will not be AS great as imagined. Yes, they are useful in a tight spot, but they hardly replace the versatility of a wizard's ACTUAL magic. Especially because (practically) you would need to stop casting, "get wand bag" "hold wand" "zap", by which time you could potentially have "cast magic missile" three times. I say this, because the presence of wands in the game would not unbalance the game as much as imagined (or perhaps, hoped). Because of the lack of unbalancing, I don't think we NEED to make the cost overly expensive. I would rather make the cost RP-expensive. That is, maybe you have to gather odd (but cheap) things for different schools?
- mirrors for abjurations?
- a fire for evocations?
- a lich skull for necromancy?
- a gem for divination?
- etc, etc (basically in addition to the wood/metal "object" of "wand" or "staff")
The whole point of wands is having a spell "reserve", if you are able of casting a spell at the same time and using a wand that would be something like casting spells with the quickened spell feat. Use of wands should generate exhaustation like those skills that if you use them, you aren't allowed to use any other skills or cast spells for roughly a round.d) I also strongly disagree in there being a lag for wand/stave use. That's the whole point of wand use! It saves time in battle when you're out of spells because they get cast instantly. If it actually takes longer after zapping to recover, than it does to cast spells, why not just flee, memorize new spells, then attack again?
Of courseAm welcome to be disagreed with here, of course.
Re: Wands/Staves
Personally do not want exp drain in these skills, FK is different than book-based on many areas. Brew/scribe have not had a negative impact on the game for giving exp after all. Still, I concede that it has merit so I'm not riding the point and leaving it up to the imm folks. Its a small price to pay to see these to skills in-game.
From what I have seen, FK is already coded to work with the wood we have in-game in regards to wands/staves. Course, that is based on how the helpfiles read. Could be completely off.
I'm happy with "wood + spell = wand" view. Some spells will be seen often, sure. No reason to fear a large amount of 'armor' staves really. The fearful spells already have built in high cost component requirements, so they won't be mass produce anyways... unless someone is twinking a few thousand platinum or something and thats a problem we really should lay in the player's lap and not bash skills over. Again, works fairly well with brew/scribe without too much fuss, especially if we ensure wands/staves cannot be sold to NPC vendors.
On the same coin, extra components has a point. It wouldn't be too much strain to add one or two extra items to the mix. However, would hate to see the simple crafts like a staff of armor take up gem powder or a pink gem. Its an armor spell after all, whats the point of making armor take 10-20 platinum to cast? No one would make such staves/wands and then whats the point of talking about these skills?
Wands/staves need a usage lag. I can easily picture Bob the wizard with 6 wands in his inventory, spamming til dry, and switching out to the next one. Spell casting has a built in lag "you begin chanting", so should zap/banish. Not talking a 30 second delay, mind you. But at least something close to spell casting's lag for balance.
Oh, that brings up an interesting question. Player made wands/staves... should they break after charges are used up via a "decays to dust" type echo or stay with your character, rechargable? Torn myself. Would like to see them rechargable. On the other hand, character craftables that never go away would eventually flood the game. All other craftables have some form of decay attached to them. So perhaps a check system, maybe attached to concentration or spellcraft when charges are gone. Success check, it stays but needs recharging. Failure, it decays.
Side thought: Glad to see folks like my spell lists. Was a bit concerned...
From what I have seen, FK is already coded to work with the wood we have in-game in regards to wands/staves. Course, that is based on how the helpfiles read. Could be completely off.
I'm happy with "wood + spell = wand" view. Some spells will be seen often, sure. No reason to fear a large amount of 'armor' staves really. The fearful spells already have built in high cost component requirements, so they won't be mass produce anyways... unless someone is twinking a few thousand platinum or something and thats a problem we really should lay in the player's lap and not bash skills over. Again, works fairly well with brew/scribe without too much fuss, especially if we ensure wands/staves cannot be sold to NPC vendors.
On the same coin, extra components has a point. It wouldn't be too much strain to add one or two extra items to the mix. However, would hate to see the simple crafts like a staff of armor take up gem powder or a pink gem. Its an armor spell after all, whats the point of making armor take 10-20 platinum to cast? No one would make such staves/wands and then whats the point of talking about these skills?
Wands/staves need a usage lag. I can easily picture Bob the wizard with 6 wands in his inventory, spamming til dry, and switching out to the next one. Spell casting has a built in lag "you begin chanting", so should zap/banish. Not talking a 30 second delay, mind you. But at least something close to spell casting's lag for balance.
Oh, that brings up an interesting question. Player made wands/staves... should they break after charges are used up via a "decays to dust" type echo or stay with your character, rechargable? Torn myself. Would like to see them rechargable. On the other hand, character craftables that never go away would eventually flood the game. All other craftables have some form of decay attached to them. So perhaps a check system, maybe attached to concentration or spellcraft when charges are gone. Success check, it stays but needs recharging. Failure, it decays.
Side thought: Glad to see folks like my spell lists. Was a bit concerned...
-Gilain- -Trilev- -Siros-
You do not need to change the world, merely leave it a little better than how you found it.
You do not need to change the world, merely leave it a little better than how you found it.
- Alvirin
- Sword Grand Master
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- Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2007 7:20 pm
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Re: Wands/Staves
Mainly staves and wands in D&D have four differences.
Crafting staves requires a higher level than the required craft wands (increased skill in fk?)
Staves can hold spells of up to eight level, whereas wands can hold spells up to four level.
Staves are way more expensive than wands.
And finally the true difference between staves and wands.
The power spell of spells which are cast through a wand are determined by the wand, wheras spells cast through a staff are benefited of being casted by a wizard, being more powerful the more levels has the wizard.
[EDIT]
Perhaps skill level would indicate up to what level you can focus in a wand/staff minding that crafting a staff should be somewhat more difficult (and expensive) than crafting a wand of the same spell level.
Crafting staves requires a higher level than the required craft wands (increased skill in fk?)
Staves can hold spells of up to eight level, whereas wands can hold spells up to four level.
Staves are way more expensive than wands.
And finally the true difference between staves and wands.
The power spell of spells which are cast through a wand are determined by the wand, wheras spells cast through a staff are benefited of being casted by a wizard, being more powerful the more levels has the wizard.
[EDIT]
Perhaps skill level would indicate up to what level you can focus in a wand/staff minding that crafting a staff should be somewhat more difficult (and expensive) than crafting a wand of the same spell level.
Re: Wands/Staves
This is one of the times D&D does not merge well with FK. Level 8 spells would be a nightmare to balance and it wouldn't make sense to have all spells usable with both skills. Thats one of the reasons I put together that spell chart on page one, seperating all spells between wands, staves, and "not usable". Would it be neat to go exactly like it is in D&D source books? Yea, of course. But some of the material just does not translate over well.
Staves are already shown as more difficult right now, wandmaking is a level 46 skill and staffmaking is listed as a level 49 skill. Thats pretty much the best way to show a difficulty difference in FK.
Another point where D&d needs to take a backseat to house. Not sure how easily it would be to code wand spell power being based on the wand and staff spell power based off the user or even if its possible. Code is the gatekeeper that blocks the gate to many changes. Less time and easier to have both work under same code checks. *shrug*
Concentration and/or spellcraft skill checks during crafting of wands/staves, far as I can tell, is code-able. Been suggesting similar checks on usage. No reason why crafting shouldn't have them.
Staves are already shown as more difficult right now, wandmaking is a level 46 skill and staffmaking is listed as a level 49 skill. Thats pretty much the best way to show a difficulty difference in FK.
Another point where D&d needs to take a backseat to house. Not sure how easily it would be to code wand spell power being based on the wand and staff spell power based off the user or even if its possible. Code is the gatekeeper that blocks the gate to many changes. Less time and easier to have both work under same code checks. *shrug*
Concentration and/or spellcraft skill checks during crafting of wands/staves, far as I can tell, is code-able. Been suggesting similar checks on usage. No reason why crafting shouldn't have them.
-Gilain- -Trilev- -Siros-
You do not need to change the world, merely leave it a little better than how you found it.
You do not need to change the world, merely leave it a little better than how you found it.
- Alvirin
- Sword Grand Master
- Posts: 255
- Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2007 7:20 pm
- Location: Streets of Waterdeep / On the road
Re: Wands/Staves
While I agree that "mass-destruction" spells or save-or-die spells must be considered if they should be added or not, I think that pretty much all spells up to fourth level should be "wandeable", the more spells are "wandeable" the more likely that classes that can use magic devices (bards, thieves) would need to have RP to buy from those who can make wands and seek them once their wands "get empty", also mind that those classes aren't particularly popular and certainly downgrading arguably one of their best skills would not help.
Re: Wands/Staves
It would definitly be NEAT to see wands able to cast up to fourth (which would limit wand spamming by rogues/bards, etc) and staves up to eight. Though I must confess staves with spellpower equal to the mage casting it... Slightly disasterous...Alvirin wrote:Mainly staves and wands in D&D have four differences.
Crafting staves requires a higher level than the required craft wands (increased skill in fk?)
Staves can hold spells of up to eight level, whereas wands can hold spells up to four level.
Staves are way more expensive than wands.
And finally the true difference between staves and wands.
The power spell of spells which are cast through a wand are determined by the wand, wheras spells cast through a staff are benefited of being casted by a wizard, being more powerful the more levels has the wizard.
[EDIT]
Perhaps skill level would indicate up to what level you can focus in a wand/staff minding that crafting a staff should be somewhat more difficult (and expensive) than crafting a wand of the same spell level.
IF staves are able to cast up to eight.... Have the charges directly effected by the circle in which they are being cast... IE:
Lvl 1 - 20 Charges
Lvl 2 - 18
blah blah blah
You get the idea?
Usage Lag: I agreeNysan wrote:Wands/staves need a usage lag. I can easily picture Bob the wizard with 6 wands in his inventory, spamming til dry, and switching out to the next one. Spell casting has a built in lag "you begin chanting", so should zap/banish. Not talking a 30 second delay, mind you. But at least something close to spell casting's lag for balance.
Oh, that brings up an interesting question. Player made wands/staves... should they break after charges are used up via a "decays to dust" type echo or stay with your character, rechargable? Torn myself. Would like to see them rechargable. On the other hand, character craftables that never go away would eventually flood the game. All other craftables have some form of decay attached to them. So perhaps a check system, maybe attached to concentration or spellcraft when charges are gone. Success check, it stays but needs recharging. Failure, it decays.
Side thought: Glad to see folks like my spell lists. Was a bit concerned...
Decay: Wands should not be rechargeable, staves should?
New Point: Here is an idea! The wands/staves should only be imbued with the wizard's school focus! This will allow for more diversity within the game! No ONE person could "lock down" the market! I like it myself =)
Erwyth
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Feraael
Halafae
- Alvirin
- Sword Grand Master
- Posts: 255
- Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2007 7:20 pm
- Location: Streets of Waterdeep / On the road
Re: Wands/Staves
Random idea that could be also applied to brewing/scribing
Specialist wizards would have a considerable bonus in their skills to craft wands or staves / brews / scribe, spells which are part of his school of specialization, also perhaps they might need to use less components in order to use these trades.
This might make the idea of playing a specializard wizard more desirable.
Specialist wizards would have a considerable bonus in their skills to craft wands or staves / brews / scribe, spells which are part of his school of specialization, also perhaps they might need to use less components in order to use these trades.
This might make the idea of playing a specializard wizard more desirable.
Re: Wands/Staves
My thoughts on what spells should be usable in these two skills are already covered, so I won't repeat them. However, I am curious why you think the spells I listed under 'balanced out' should be made craftable. I'll list my "why" and let you tear it apart. That list can always be changed after all. I grouped spells that were similar, feel free to break them up to make a point though.Alvirin wrote:While I agree that "mass-destruction" spells or save-or-die spells must be considered if they should be added or not, I think that pretty much all spells up to fourth level should be "wandeable", the more spells are "wandeable" the more likely that classes that can use magic devices (bards, thieves) would need to have RP to buy from those who can make wands and seek them once their wands "get empty", also mind that those classes aren't particularly popular and certainly downgrading arguably one of their best skills would not help.
- Charm Person/Charm Monster/Dominate Person: Partly due to balance issues, partly due to a personal rule against logged spells being craftables.
- Floating Disc: The way FK is set up and how this spell's duration is coded its unnecessary as a wand or staff.
- Identify: On the fense about this one. Mostly put in this catagory because I could not see its wand/staff form being used often.
- Ventriloquism/Change Sex: Didn't see a point in making the mostly social/RP spells into craftables.
- Invisibility: Balance.
- Knock/Pass Door: Images of folks using these wands to enter player housing has landed these spells here.
- Summon Mount/Ethereal Flyer/Phantom Steed/Faithful Hound: Limited in-game experience with these spells, but from what I have experienced, their average duration makes having a wand/staff version in FK rather useless.
- Monster Summon: Balance, no need to further push this spell any further towards "removed due to abuse".
- Daze/Daze Monster/Sleep/Confusion/Crushing Dispair/Web/Shadow Binding/Black Tentacles/Halt Undead/Hold Person/Hold Monster: Crowd control spells removed due to balance concerns.
- Animate Dead/Animate Object: In FK at least, I feel wands/staves of these spells do not fit well.
- Magic Weapon: Could easily be placed in staff/wand group, but I felt it was out of place the way it works in FK.
- Preservation: Another on the fense spell. Did not see its wand/staff version used enough to be craftable.
- Witch Light/Continual Light: Did not feel wands/staves of these spells fit well in FK.
- Disease: Lets wait and see what it looks like when its coded and in-game before we start making wands with it.
- Magic Mirror: Felt wrong as a wand. The caster looks into the mirror to see the spell's result. No mirror, just wand seemed screwy to me.
- Phantasmal Killer/Disintegrate: Instant death spells, balance obviously.
- Dismissal: Balance, basically an instant-death spell for several NPC types.
- Major Image: Never used it myself, or even seen it used in-game. Based on helpfile info, felt too complicated to place in a wand.
Alot of it is personal opinion and maybe other folks can come up with better reasons, but there it is. Tear away...
-Gilain- -Trilev- -Siros-
You do not need to change the world, merely leave it a little better than how you found it.
You do not need to change the world, merely leave it a little better than how you found it.