Priests and Faiths

[Larethiel]

I believe the option of sending in an application for faithing, when you feel it is taking your character too long/etc., is open.

[Horace]

Under the "howto" section it suggests no applications will be considered for a faith with an active imm or an FM who has logged on within the past 6 months.

Just want to make that clear, since it's a major reason why I posted. The time frame is painful.

[Dovan]

It is a method from a six month period of the Fm being absent or without an active IMM, per this thread http://www.gallwey.com/fk/board/viewtop ... =16&t=8545 . I had simply meant to echo the thought same as Horace would point, that perhaps 6 months is a bit too excessive to stall a faith. If this thought remains the minority and it is seen as trouble, my apologies.

[Mouat]

Sorry, I know I was a wee bit serious before because I've waited over a year since I finished my first two quests and now I wait to do more...

I would agree with others, if you have been active and RPing for over 6 months... that does seem a bit excessive to not getting faithed... now if your PC is not being faithed because his RP sucks then I would hope somebody would tell that person.

But on a lighter side, for those of you waiting to be faithed: I think you all should join the faith of one of the most active FMs I mean really, being unfaithed is a fate worse than Death, is it not? *cough*

[Selveem]

Meh, any Souls not devoted to a deity are just another brick in Kel's wall anyhow. No need to join a faith if you're shooting for Kelemvor!

[Nedylene]

Under the "howto" section it suggests no applications will be considered for a faith with an active imm or an FM who has logged on within the past 6 months.

Just want to make that clear, since it's a major reason why I posted. The time frame is painful.

I hear this alot.... It took me six months to get Nedylene faithed. And Shar had an active player at the time. Took me five months to get Akordia faithed and Chauntea had an active FM then. To me, that wasn't painful. There was SO MUCH else I could do.

So, what is a painful time to you and why? I would like to hear others on how long it took to get faithed. In my opinion someone shouldn't BE faithed absolutely immediately. Following a god in a setting such as Forgotten Realms is an extensive roleplay. You are choosing a single god in a culture that practiced polythesis (spelt right?). . . While it is common in the mud for each player to have a single god think about it in terms of the realms. A person choosing a single god is thought out, extensive and not your every day thing. And each faith has a different definition of devotion.. There are some faiths that are harder to get into then others because of the extend of rp required to follow them.

[Horace]

So, what is a painful time to you and why?

First off, clerics in FR don't worship one god as a priest in a monotheistic religion does. They have a "patron" god, which is totally different. That out of the way...

Because by the nature of the class "cleric/druid" it qualifies your PC as being found favored by a god. Not being able to participate in a cornerstone function of the class your character is, is frustrating.

common answers to the question "who is your patron deity" on FK without being faithed

Fighter: They all seem alright
Wizard: Azuth...but I'm not really the church going type
Ranger: I focus more on an idea
Thief: shut up
Barbarian: And when the moon shines proudly with the sun and blood rains from the heavens..(goes on for awhile like an old Ultimate Warrior promo)
Cleric/Druid: ...I don't want to talk about it, it's complicated

You see how much that sticks out? So you're able to cast divine magic huh? Who do you worship to get that? *crickets*

For all other classes it doesn't mean anything. You get some items, that aren't really any better than any other item, and you get to be in a collective, that gives your PC some agenda...which is great! That is a reason it should be done sooner, it instills role play. For a priest it means everything, it finally validates the mechanics the character is able to do IC, and they'll actually be able to begin priestly things.

Before making my priest, I had to actively come up with a convoluted story on how my priest is able to cast divine magic, without having a deities favor. The only way for me to make the character make sense, was to have him taken out from a separate pantheon where he obviously proved himself (divine magic) and now he has some sort of residual ability to still cast divine magic. See? Even that doesn't make sense if you actually think about it. To play a character class, you shouldn't have to justify the character's mechanics with back story, it should simply be justified by class. Which isn't the case with priests.

Taking 500+ hours for it to happen, is stupid. 5 months to one person, may be 5 weeks to another. We're a player base who demands mechanics reflect the characters, we don't play in a mush. We also have, in my opinion, one of the most educated player bases on the Forgotten Realms setting. We're still using a mindset from a time where players didn't know anything about the setting - look at some of the old quests describing what things are, it's like it's explaining it to a child.

And being faithed early on, allows for more quality roleplay with the character for all priestly duties. The other classes don't need it mechanically, it's an absolute necessity for priests. And making them wait doesn't do anything other than bring more inconsistency to the game compared to the setting it's based on.

[Lerytha]

There is just a short point I want to make:

If faithing takes 5 months because of the faith manager choosing many tasks and really testing the character and providing roleplay: great! And if anyone moans about that, quite frankly, tough.

If faithing takes 5 months because there is no faith manager, or the faith manager is inactive, or can't log at the same timezone (or whatever), therefore delaying roleplay and other things: ouch! And I think people are entitled to point out the problems in that. Waiting 5 months because the SYSTEM doesn't work is bad. Waiting 5 months because you are roleplaying is not bad.

This thread was set up (I think) to address the problems that come from some of the flaws in the SYSTEM. Now don't get me wrong, its a lot faster to be faithed nowadays than it was. But its still not quick. And lets not think "quick" is neccessarily bad. If a character is taught about the faith, completes their quest, etc, "quickly", that's not a bad thing. I think we're falling into a trap of thinking quick is bad, because of how long things look previously.

[Harroghty]

I've got a wonderful, labor-intensive solution.

Horace makes an excellent point about the plight of a priest and Lerytha makes a good one about the process -the road into a faith. I've got a middle-ground on the two approaches (which do not seem contrary to me), but it is -as I said above- labor-intensive for someone. Allow priests to begin their road to being a full-grown PC in a learning environment; I don't mean one like the various starting locations in each hometown, you are learning there about combat. I mean allow each priest to begin in an area that teaches them about the faiths so that they roll into the public eye already faithed. Divorce this from a requirement of PC involvement but allow members of the faith to interact with the new character desiring to join their faith once they've made that choice.

So, for example, you've some kind of ecumenical location for priests where they are able to learn about the Gods. Maybe then add a few more detailed lessons for each individual God available in game. Then add a place where a PC from outside (faith members) could visit inquirers to their own faith there (sort of like the ubiquitous prison phone booths you see in so many movies).

I see a few benefits to this: priests don't have to fudge their role-play; priests don't have to wait forever to get into a church; priests are taught doctine and exposed to, but not limited by, faith-based PC involvement.

Negatives: this removes some control from FMs (mitigated by actual instruction); there would be some willing suspension of disbelief in the ecumenical nature of the location (maybe something like Candlekeep! I think it's absurd to demand that each faith have its own spot and spreading this to all the churches removes the convenience of it for a new player).

Okay, and an enabling suggestion to all of this: add a junior priest rank to this. Yes, you could perhaps assign a rank from the existing system but I propose this because now the priest is "faithed" but a PC FM can halt their progress if they come out of the factory with some major flaw.

It's early. That may be a little incoherent, but please, tear it up. Fuel for the fire.

[Saranya]

To me, that wasn't painful. There was SO MUCH else I could do.

Well, yes. I am not sold on this being a big problem that needs solving. Saranya was about a year to faith, which I considered fine. My first FK character took over 2 years. There was a lot of character building that occurred in that time. Significantly, that first PC didn't turn out anything like I imagined he would, in no small part because of that faith RP.

I have mixed feelings about people deciding they want to play "Specific Blah of Lord Blah" and OOC-ly pushing others instead of letting the PC naturally develop, perhaps in a completely different direction. Yes, it is an "issue" for priests, but so are certain faith's restrictions on rank. It is all just part of the RP for various faiths and classes.

On the other hand...that first PC of mine also witnessed someone's IM-buddy get created, classed and faithed in a couple of weeks. That PC was a faith leader by the time my PC got quested in the same faith. Frustrations happen when people are held to different standards, but the new faith system, imm hard-work, admin crack-downs, and a lot of diligence has really helped alleviate that. (Thanks everyone!)

A parting comment on why FMs perhaps don't do what Joe-player thinks they should be doing. Yes, there is real life. I would also offer up an example from what I know best. Saranya is a lot more likely to logon to help a fellow junior Squire who is "squiring"; reading books, cleaning stables, and being helpful. Saranya is a lot less likely to log on to deal with a "Squire" who is running around in full plate acting like they're already a paladin and will otell every five seconds to whine about how long they've waited.

If that made any sense...I'm saying maybe FM's feel the same? It's easy to complain that a given FM is inactive, but after so many years of watching people get burned out, I'd like to examine what we as players can do better to encourage activity.

[Zynarc]

One way to compensate for easier faithing would be to limit clerics who get faithed to be limited to level 3 spells (that would apply to unfaithed clerics as well).

The clerics will get into the faith as an initiate (or a new faith level lower than initiate), and they can get to cast more spells as they rise up the faith ranks.

On a side note, faithing shouldn't be just about only doing things your way and how you expect everyone to respond to how you do things, but it's about two parties and each one should try to compensate a bit.

[Horace]

One way to compensate for easier faithing would be to limit clerics who get faithed to be limited to level 3 spells (that would apply to unfaithed clerics as well).

I think the last thing we should do is put more mechanical qualifiers on the class.

All the things that are...dare I say it, "pro", extremely long faith process are personal anecdotes that are entirely subjective. It's like saying, "I don't understand why people dislike waiting so long at the DMV, when I was there I had a wonderful conversation with a delightful old man" - well that's great. Last time I was there a homeless man called me ugly and the person sitting next to me smelled like cabbage.

You can just say whatever you want to if you're always just going to use personal accounts of how things were in the good old days. But the fact is, there is no reason for the process to be so long. "Roleplay" is a great mantra for a roleplay intensive game, but it's so quickly discounted the lost roleplay that occur to priests when the faithing process isn't actively going (As Lerytha said).

When you make a priest - having the idea of "he's going to be a cleric of X" isn't forcing anything. Making that decision should be done in the character creation stage, because clerics are chosen by a god by definition of their class. You can't make a cleric and just let the roleplay "flow" to whatever faith lets you in first. At least, that's how I see the class paradigm. I know many aren't that strict.

[Saranya]

But the fact is, there is no reason for the process to be so long.

My "personal anecdotes" went to both sides of the argument, but I still disagree with the above generalized statement. Were it up to me, in many cases I would choose to speed up the faith process for PCs. But in at least one current case, I am working IC-ly to slow it down. *shrug*

Then again I don't see roleplay "lost" if someone is well...playing a role. If it's not the role they want at the moment....umm, tough beans?

[Larethiel]

I do not see a problem with faithing taking a certain while. As a faithmanager, I want to make sure that the hopeful/soon to be followers know their deity. And know him/her well, so that there will not be future issues with the faithful not knowing how to deal with certain other faiths/situations/etc.. Especially priests should have to work for their faithing as they are to represent their deity and be his/her voice bzw. act as close to their patron as possible. With some PCs the process of learning about their deity goes quick, and some might take long times and many lessons to understand basics. Also, a Faithmanager might take their time with faithing someone if said person lets say, just logs in when the fm is online. Or there are IC reasons for taking a certain time. I believe, it is mostly the FM's business how long a faithing takes.
I agree though, that it should not necessarily take years faithing someone into a faith with an active faithmanager.

[Horace]

Then again I don't see roleplay "lost" if someone is well...playing a role

The priest role, in this stage of limbo, is nonsensical. Just because you're playing a "role" doesn't mean it's good roleplay. It's a fantasy adventure genre. At what point does a priest without a god who can somehow magically cast spells without adherence to any faith, fit into the setting or genre?

Just because it /is/ a role, doesn't mean it should be considered in the same sentence with "role" play in this setting.

My comment of roleplay being lost, is the 300+ hours of not having any faith, where the priest character could be performing priestly duties to progress and spread his faith (a cleric's ultimate role). Where those hundreds of hours are instead used ignoring that aspect of the class and just being a guy who can cast divine magic...but without an explanation.

There is clearly a quality difference in the "role" we are taking on. And that difference doesn't just harm the priest's player, it harms the entire game.

Let's put this into context. 400 hours is the equivalent of 50, eight hour, work days. 2 full months of work. 4 biweekly pay check periods. Seriously? People think this amount of time, not doing what your class does, is not only justifiable....but enjoyable? I refuse to believe people are being honest about it. It's horrible to say, but it sounds like butt kissing to old old ideas of how the game should be played.

[Dalvyn]

If so, then I think there's - maybe not butt-kissing - but bullshit on both sides, Horace.

Some say that they do not mind it taking a long time before they get faithed, because they can still roleplay and develop their characters during that time. I actually do not see it as butt-kicking, but just as an expression that, for some people, playing a cleric is certainly having fun with spells and powers, but ALSO roleplaying beliefs. There's more to playing a priest than just casting high level spells and showing off a faith symbol. Sure, everybody likes the part where you get to cast powerful spells and do impressive things, but this is not all there is to a cleric. It's perfectly possible to do interesting things as an unfaithed cleric (things like: developing a personality, roleplaying your frustration at not being already accepted in the faith, roleplaying moments of doubt, helping others as you can, and so on).

And, on the other hand, you seem to say that clerics should be faithed much more quickly because unfaithed priests who cast spells do not make sense? Strangely enough, I think that there's a very trivial solution to this. Unfaithed clerics can already play a relation with a god, can already assume that a god favours them (they get spells after all!), but that they are simply not yet trained and officially accepted in the church (the mortal church). Unfaithed clerics can cast spells up to 5th level I think... they are not completely useless, and they can already do several things. And if it takes time to get faithed, they can consider it and react to it ICly; I don't see why that would not make sense.

As a side note, I want to answer to your remark a few posts above that players now know enough about the setting and the gods and should be trusted to not need childish quests to learn about the gods. I'll use my own experience. Last time I observed a faithing roleplay, the two would-be followers did not seem to know much of anything about the tenets of the faith, and they even behaved in opposition to those tenets and did not seem to find that it was a problem or something they should work on. I have to choose between two problems: (a) having clerics who need to spend several months before they get faithed, and (b) having faithed clerics who don't know much about their god and who can't say whether something corresponds to the tenets or not.

Obviously, I would rather have a system where those players are trained and taught till they are ready, and are given opportunities to improve than the current system. But I really want to avoid people getting faithed and not knowing much of anything about the deity, especially in the case of priests. Maybe it would be worth warning players from the start that "priest" is not just a healer class, that it is a class with a very specific roleplay.

[Horace]

If that's the case, too many priests don't know anything about their faith, then that's fine. But I think the major problem is a large portion of the faiths don't have active members trying to get the process going. Which is heavily painted in the howto portion that suggests you wait 6 months real time before even trying to get outside help.

I still have a hard time believing people see clerics not having a god to champion for, as being something that's reasonable for the equivalent of 2 months full time work. Spreading the agenda of your god is by far the most important aspect of the cleric class. And that aspect of the class is entirely forfeit for a huge portion of a pc's lifespan on the mud.

[Oghma]

As of yesterday for the most part all faiths are up to date. This excludes the following:

-Special cases being handled by imms/faith managers that are active
-Cases where characters have not actively pursued faiths beyond setting status to hopeful
-Cases where characters have shown themselves to be currently unfit for faithing and are either pursuing faith options with the aid of faith managers or faithed members to improve and become fit for faithing on their own time
-Cases where hopefuls are on in different timezones

Methods to resolve the second and fourth example:
-A single simple prayer shows interest in the faith you seek, keep it simple and direct, try to avoid multiple entires unless there is no choice.
-Actively express a need to join such as requesting a faith meeting or organizing a note to post to the boards ingame.

[Dalvyn]

But I think the major problem is a large portion of the faiths don't have active members trying to get the process going.

Fine. But teaching others about the faith does not have to be limited to faith managers, or even inner circle: you know about a faith? Teach it.

I still have a hard time believing people see clerics not having a god to champion for, as being something that's reasonable for the equivalent of 2 months full time work.

Just because you do not have a symbol and the higher level spells does not mean that you can't champion a god. That's a fallacy. The only thing you lack when you are not faithed is: (1) access to higher powers and (2) an "official" symbol. Neither (1) nor (2) prevents you from championing a god, roleplaying your faith, spreading the glory of your deity, saying that you have your deity's favour, or anything like that; The ONLY thing you lack is higher-level powers. Now, I admit that it can be frustrating not to have them, but it is a fallacy to say that it prevents you from roleplaying your character properly.

Spreading the agenda of your god is by far the most important aspect of the cleric class. And that aspect of the class is entirely forfeit for a huge portion of a pc's lifespan on the mud.

Why is that? Do you need to be able to cast "heal" to spread your religion and follow the ethos of your chosen god in your behaviour? Do you need to be able to turn undead to teach others about your god and convince others to follow him/her? No way.

Now, I'll send a general call to all those who think they are not progressing in their faith, or who think that they have waited too long. Send a mail to the builders address and I'll make sure to investigate every single case. That does not mean that you'll get faithed in the week, but I'll follow each case that is sent to that address. Make sure to include in your mail: (a) your character and account names, (b) the faith you are applying to, (c) whether you have already been quested or not/who you have arleady met and discussed with in the faith, (d) what/who is responsible for the delay according to you [don't hesitate to blame me too, I can take it!].

[Elenthis]

First, I'd like to say that I've never had trouble being faithed. The one character I played who was not faithed (Lukian) was given some VERY compelling Ic reasons that were conducive to MANY MANY hours of excellent RP. So that aside...

I just wanted to say that what Lerytha has pointed out seems to not be the topic of discussion when I think it -should- be. The system. Let me make a minor example...
I put in for a dwelling...some time ago. I'm VERY content to wait for the staff on this, because Dwellings are relatively personal RP advantages that rarely affect the mud as a whole, and thus are rightfully low on the 'put out the fire' list. While I dont mind waiting for that dwelling, the time has just been shuffled back (theoretically) by however long it takes Dalvyn to PERSONALLY see to the faithing system, rather than the SYSTEM seeing to the system.

While I find Dalvyn's call for faith-issues another example of the lengths he is willing to go to to ensure player-base happiness, I dont think it should be necessary. Horace: To you I say this. I agree with some of what you say, but I think you tend to overthink some of it to the point where you circle yourself and lose the main bit. Your point seems to be "It takes too long for no good reason". Talking about the RP loss/gain ect is only a side-affect of the base point, which I think you'll find mixed opinions on. I dont know if it 'takes too long' but I do know that my opinion tends toward faith manager activity being good.

So to recap: I agree with Lerytha. If we're going to pick this apart, pick apart the system, and pick apart the basic principal. Not the stories and specifics.

And to disclaim: The example I used was intended to point out what we're ALL LOSING when we back the staff into a corner with malcontentment and miscommunication over something that should be discussed rather than argued about. It was in no way a *hint* or *reminder* about the any specific reward process, such as the aformentioned dwelling process.