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DELETED · Post by **DELETED** » Fri Jan 09, 2004 5:45 pm

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Llanthyr · Post by **Llanthyr** » Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:01 pm

The dark secrets are revealed. Seren worships Loviatar right before he goes to bed. And so does Llanthyr. In other words, I like the idea.

Timaeus · Post by **Timaeus** » Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:20 pm

I would like to see a command for this also. It would be a roleplay enhancer for alot of situations. You could actually smote a complete fight with someone and never have to revert to the murder command and instead you could react to your opponents smotes and actually take damge. I think a set amount of damage of 5% is appropriate for this command but I also think that it should be coded that you can not kill yourself with the command itself to avoid anyone killing themselves and then complaining afterwards. Maybe only useable in killmode spar as a preventive measure? The command could be targetable or general program damage so you could give out damage to specific body locations when its called for in roleplay. An example of when targeted locations would be useful:

Lathlain gets all moody and grumpy for no apparent reason again and swings his sword down at your head!
Timaeus turns sideways as the sword descends not moving quite fast enough as the blade strikes denting his helm.
Timaeus types damageself head
Timaeus brings his sword around quickly, his blade arcing towards Lathlain's shoulder.
Lathlain staggers with the impact of the blade as it rips through muscles and tendon.
Lathlain types damageself left_arm twice.

This lets the fight be truly smoted out and roleplayed as the players intend instead of the randomness of using the murder command.

Other roleplay applications examples for this type of command. Say you want to portray the beat and injured warrior who sends out a call for help. Instead of healing every tick while you wait you could actually still be injured when the help arrives.

Or you want to roleplay the loss of a limb, damageself right_arm until the arm comes off and then you can roleplay the limb loss without having to rely on a npc mob or killmode nofight and hope the intended limb comes off before you are killed.

Another example, say there is roleplay between you and and another player which you both have decided will result in the death of one ICly without the other being killed or hurt, instead of typing murder 50 or so times until you actually beat their defenses and do enough damage to kill the intended person the target could damageself with no location until they are at 0% health and you only need deliver the death blow.

Timaeus Valierius,
Warrior of Kelemvor.

Tandria · Post by **Tandria** » Fri Jan 09, 2004 9:12 pm

I really like this idea. I have even seen a few events that would have greatly benefited from such a thing being added.

Aegir · Post by **Aegir** » Fri Jan 09, 2004 9:27 pm

If this were to be coded, I'd personally like it so that it couldn't be used to kill yourself. Stun sure, but a killing blow should be left to the other person.

Rhytania · Post by **Rhytania** » Fri Jan 09, 2004 10:04 pm

Weeping Friars anyone?

Lathlain · Post by **Lathlain** » Sat Jan 10, 2004 12:25 am

*grumbles*
Moody and grumpy for no apparent reason... My my, it's as though you knew him better than I

I'm all in favour this, actually, there have been plenty of occasions where that little bit of extra damage could work wonders on the roleplay at hand.

Ursan · Post by **Ursan** » Sat Jan 10, 2004 2:00 pm

While I can see the many and varied situations where this could enhance role-play, this suggestion leaves me feeling a bit cold.

I for one would not want to see something which allows self-harm. For every humorous 'tackle' social or 'clips you around the ear' smote there will be the other, darker and less pleasant ones.

There is already a disturbing trend in the Loviataran faith towards these things and whilst I have the utmost respect for someone who can play such a role I doubt all will treat the ability with restraint.

If it were to be introduced I would hope that it would be logged and monitored closely. Else we may find ourselves attracting more players to the Mud who have their own less wholesome agenda

Dominik · Post by **Dominik** » Sat Jan 10, 2004 2:01 pm

I'd just like to add, really quick, that Sharni's very right. Those of us with Lovite characters would, indeed, love the idea. In fact, it should have been one of us who brought it up. But alas...I think it's a wonderful idea, and not because of my character's Faith. It'd lead to more RPing while fighting, too, I think, since, as was already said, we would not be required to revert to the murder command and killmode nofight and all that. But, yes, Lovites, I think, would love this.

Cyric · Post by **Cyric** » Sat Jan 10, 2004 10:39 pm

I can see Ursan's point, but a counter-point just popped into my head.

Let's say this command was never coded on the basis that others would use it towards self-mutilation and demonstrate such mutilation in an open forum. That is exposing others to the idea of gore, blood, violence, etc. and, therefore, raising the PG rating to about an R. However, how could this damageself be the command that does this? It simply lowers your hp 5%, from Seren's description of it. No messages, no bells or whistles, just a 5% drop in hp. Smote would be used to display the messages of self-mutilation. So, even without damageself, people could still break the rating rule.

Cret · Post by **Cret** » Sat Jan 10, 2004 11:35 pm

As of now, you can cast spells against yourself...

The only problem I see with this damageself command is the making of an excuse to use healing spells. Those people who would hurt them selves and feel justifyed, in haveing a 'friend' who wants to Gm healing or Gm it them selves, by casting it on a hurt body not an unhurt one.

Tierney · Post by **Tierney** » Sat Jan 10, 2004 11:41 pm

Yeah, but if people just wanted to hurt themselves so they could practice heal spells, they already can by kicking themselves, bashing doors, or even jumping in the nearest river.

Glim · Post by **Glim** » Sun Jan 11, 2004 1:19 am

I for one like this command....for those worried it would be abused for healing, just make it so that using this command to practice healing would just be counted as code abuse. Which I think it would be.

Also, just please ask people to keep self-mutiliation like this to a minimum, same way they ask people to keep sexual acts and overt acts to a private area and fading out or the like.

I dont beleive this would really change much except add actual damage and healing to RPing things, which I beleive would make it much more realistic and add some more flavor to things. Though I dont beleive people should be forced to use it...only if they want to.

Overall I give a big thumbs up...though perhaps there could be a seperate command for actually killing yourself....or not...whichever feels good

Kirkus · Post by **Kirkus** » Sun Jan 11, 2004 7:38 am

If you add this in you are taking something very important out of rping a fight. Chance. Right now you can start a fight in killmode nofight and kick at someone, that person still has a chance of dodging the kick as dictated by the game. The game takes your kick skill against the person you are attackings dodge skill and who knows what else, crunches the numbers and decides whether or not the kick lands. With this proposed thing all I have to do is type out a smote saying "Kirkus kicks you tenaciously in the face" then you have to damageself ?%. Whats the point of all my training in a skill when I can just smote it out and win any pkill situation by being the best typist?

Granel · Post by **Granel** » Sun Jan 11, 2004 7:52 am

What about limiting this to certain char classes like Lovitarians? I don't know the outcome of something like this being implemented but I do know that some PC's hurt themselves better than others though I'm not sure. What about making this something htat has to be applied for or limiting it in usage like mana or stamina...IE the will you have to hurt yourself might regenerate over time and the percentage you gain back is judged by your constitution. I mean, that it can be used in situations but moderately so you don't walk into a room and a fellow feels the sudden urge to hurt himself straight for twenty minutes with no end in sight. Instead he runs down his willpower as he hurts himself and it affects other attributes..maybe he'll go blind, maybe his arm will fall off or he'll be only able to move at a crawl...

just an idea...

Cyric · Post by **Cyric** » Sun Jan 11, 2004 8:03 am

First to Kirkus - From what I understand, it will be a "self" skill only. No one can force this 'damageself' on you, and therefore no one can make you take damage from their failed kick. You alone can decide if the kick would take more damage or not. Such as, if someone kicked you in the head, you could decide if it were to value more damage than the 1-2% it gave in the first place. However, if someone kicked your arm in rp and it gave you a 10% decrease, you could ignore the damage self. If another tried to force you to damageself cause it would be a more hurtful shot, one could simply say "No, the chance that you would have hit spot x has been decided by the code." So it would be a self affecting skill only.

Second to Granel - I understood this as an OOC ability. As an OOC ability, it would not discriminate based on IC circumstances such as race, class, and mana capacity. Thought, I can see your point where willpower comes into play and those whom do not have the willpower to harm themselves, could not. But what if it were used OOC to level the playing field in a fight? Such as "JackieChan cleaves JetLi's head with his sword swing" and it leads only to a nick -- JetLi feels that such a blow would cause more damage, therefore, he harmshimself. Should he be penilized for leveling the playing field?

Just ideas, want more feedback =D Please respond.

--Cyric

Timaeus · Post by **Timaeus** » Sun Jan 11, 2004 9:29 am

The argument about using damageself to raise healing spells it a moot point. Spell level increase is based on the successful casting of the spell whether or not the spell actually cures any damage does not matter as long as you successfully cast it.

The less pleasant, darker smotes are going to exist with or without this being implemented. People who would use darker smotes are the ones that will do so regardless of a coded ability to actually be hurt. This is afterall a MU* with violent content no way about it.

And as for taking something out of a roleplayed fight thats is quite the opposite. No one can force you to type the command this is intended as voluntary command to be used to further roleplay. In a purely roleplayed fight an smote such as "Kirkus kicks you tenaciously in the face" is not really an acceptable smote at all. It forces something on another player by your action without taking into account any reaction from the other player. That should never be the case with any smotes unless the other player has given you OOC permisson. Forced smotes have no place in or out of combat.

A properly smoted combat round (purely smote no code attacks) should consist of two to four smotes for each round, ideally four. Player 1 makes an attacking smote, player two decides their reaction to the smote and if the action suggested happens. Now player 2 makes their attack smote and waits for player 1 to respond. At times a combat round can be done with the attack and reaction in one smote leaving it at a total of 2 smotes per round.

An example of a 4 smote combat round:
Round 1 Player 1 Action: Lathlain gets all moody and grumpy for no apparent reason again and swings his sword down at your head!
Round 1 Player 2 Reaction: Timaeus turns sideways as the sword descends not moving quite fast enough as the blade strikes cleaving throuh his helm.
Timaeus types damageself head twice as Timaeus' player decides it was a severe injury.

Round 1 Player 2 Action: Timaeus brings his sword around quickly, his blade arcing towards Lathlain's shoulder.
Round 1 Player 1 Reaction: Lathlain steps to the side and ducks his head to the side as the sword deflects off his shoulder plater
Lathlain does not type damageself as his player determined the attack missed.
End of Round move to round 2.

Smote combat is not for everyone, if you go into it with the attitude that my barely trained level 10 fighter can beat everyone because I can just make my smotes have every attack miss then you are not a mature enough roleplayer to use smote combat and you should stick to the coded combat using killmode options. Smoted combat takes a person who realizes their characters limits and isn't some almighty god. They are able to roleplay their skill levels suitably in regard to their characters perception of their opponents strength. Code-wise Merriman is likely not very effective in combat 1-1 with a level 50 fighter. Now if he and my Kelemvor fighter get into a situation where they face off in smoted combat over his vile choice of professions I as a player am going to respect the fact that he is a hero of magic and ICly should be very powerful and 9 of 10 smote combats should and will end in my fighters defeat until I have actually gone and trained his skill levels high enough where it may drop to 5 of 10 combats would be defeats. Now if that same Merriman decides to forego smote combat and zaps my fighter with code attacks I'm going to let code take over and monkey-stomp his butt into the ground as best as code will allow me to do regardless of his percieved IC power. The decision is his. I would personally prefer it to be an smoted fight.

As for restricting its use to certain faith/race/class that defeats the roleplaying usefulness of this command completely. As many characters could use it for many roleplaying situations. Instead of assuming something is going to be widely abused and used for insidous means perhaps it is best to assume the majority of players are mature enough to use it responsibly. In almost every instance of a skill, spell, command there is room for abuse. And in the event that a command becomes overly abused it can easily be disabled. But to discount a command simply because it might be abused by a few players is not fair to the majority of players who will use it responsibly. Instances of Rangers slicing inappropriate corpses have occured, should the slice skill be removed from all Rangers now because of the actions of 1 or 2 irresponsible Rangers?

Timaeus Valierius,
Warrior of Kelemvor.

Kirkus · Post by **Kirkus** » Sun Jan 11, 2004 11:29 am

First off, I forgot to say in my original reply to this post that I liked Serens first use of this skill or whatever we are calling it.

It begins to hail.
Jackie Chan looks up and a large piece of hail slams into his face! (smote)
damageself (Jackie Chan now has 95% health)

There are thousands of situations where this skill could improve rp.
Next, Timaeus you said this

No one can force you to type the command this is intended as voluntary command

Perhaps my wording was wrong or I didn't make my point clear, but I meant not for someone to be forced physically but there are situations that can only lead to useing this command. Case and point would be Serens second example.

Summer kicks you in the groin!.
damageself (95% health)
damageself (90% health)
damageself (85% health)
smote buckles down and collapses;smote curls up into a ball and dies slowly;smote sniffs sadly;smote begins to cry;smote says in a high pitched voice, "That was very mean Summer!"
Summer proceeds to curbstomb you.
damageself x many times (??% health)

And I have seen plenty of peole useing smotes like that. And of course there are even socials that do this very thing. Stone, slap, thwap, tackle. Perhaps they have been removed, (I can't check, it seems to me that the mud is down at the current moment) but they are on the test port. Check them out when you get the chance. Here is a taste.

A guard is here wandering the market keeping the peace.
You begin to pelt him with small stones.
You slap him.
You THWAP the guard for being a moron.
You run over to him and bring him down!

Now being kicked in the groin is pritty painfull isn't it? I would believe that would call for useing this command, and certinly being curbstomped would. I mean didn't that happen in American History X? I actually havn't seen the movie but I have been in a class that was discussing it and heard about that part, but wait didn't that guy die? Certinly that would be a place where it would be frowned upon not to use this damageself command. There didn't seem to be any room for error in that did there? or pelting a guard with stones or tackling him to the ground.

Llanthyr · Post by **Llanthyr** » Sun Jan 11, 2004 2:01 pm

Again, If you were kicked in any part of the body, and you decide that it does not really hurt you, you can choose not to damageself, as this is a self applied damage. No one is forcing it on you. No one says that you MUST damage yourself when you get kicked, or hit by a hailstone, or just because you were pelted by some raindrops.

The Thwap can be seen in different lights. I see it as a friendly slap on the back, or a knock on the head to get the character's attention. It is to the person behind the screen on how he wants to roleplay his character to receive/dodge the blow, and to apply the damageself ability.

For the abuse of guard part, find out IC about some characters who got punished IC for that. This is just to say that IC actions will result in IC consequences.

Dominik · Post by **Dominik** » Sun Jan 11, 2004 2:11 pm

What I like about the idea, personally, is the fact that it would indeed come to be very useful to things like smoted fights, various smoted RP scenes that, if anyone has ever seen my character's description, must realize I have participated in. I know I, myself, often update my character's description with, more often than not, a new scar or some such thing. In the RP scene where that scar comes to form, something like this damageself idea would be add a lot to the RP. Sure, I can smote the damage just as well, but actually lowering the health percentage would force me to take the time to heal. I know, then, that some people would despise this idea for that very reason. In such cases, the damage could, again, simply be smoted without use or benefit of this command.

I admit to some bias in all this, however, as I do play a Lovite character. The idea is wonderful for such Faiths. But also for a Cyricist, I would think, who may not be sadomasochistic, but they are a tad demented. Or Tempurians, as they could add a great deal to their battles amongst each other or other PCs. The command could even become humorous in this sort of case:
(Forgive me. Sunites are just easy picking to me.)
Sunite slaps Isaldur (We've all seen that before.)
Sunite breaks a nail.
Sunite damages self.
Sunite cries as she glares at her broken nail.

What I'm basically trying to say is that, while this command can indeed be used for some of the more mature RPs that are almost required of certain characters and their Faiths (You really can't have an innocently RPed Lovite, or Cyricist), and battle would be where the command comes in most use, humor can also be implemented. Or, say, a pesky gnome has dropped some marbles in the Square...you walk in, fall on your arse, and take damage. (I honestly forget if damage is automatically given, but I don't think so.)

Anyway, those are my thoughts, such as they are.

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OOC Ability to Damage Self

Damage Self...

Moral doubts