Sewer baubles, low levels and similar things

[Dalvyn]

I have recently added a few objects to the sewers of Waterdeep (rings, necklaces and earrings if I remember correctly) so low level characters can sell them (or wear them if they want). Does that help a little bit with money?

Or is the real problem grinding to get levels?

Something about this: the experience you gain depends on the mobs you kill, naturally, but ALSO on your level/time ratio. If you reach level 20 in 8 hours, the experience you gain will be reduced. If you are level 20 and you have played 50 hours, the experience you gain from the same mob might be 2, 3, 4, 5 times more. That's something to keep in mind too!

Another goal I'd like to work towards is ... giving more value to low level characters. I believe that can be done (for example) by making it so that higher level players need items that even low lever characters can find or produce. The precision forge was an attempt towards this. Feel free to comment on it and share your ideas!

[Nedylene]

The objects help ALOT in some regards as you can level down there and now get some coin to help you out as well as some nice looking baubles to wear (I like them. I like that they aren't boring fluff and have alot of variety)

I have made a few lowbies recently. *IF* I have access to Waterdeep or Silverymoon I seem to have no problem leveling or making coin. My problem lies in those who do no have access to those two cities. Most of the other areas currently that people banned from those cities have access to either have things to fight which are too hard fresh from the temple and thus, no way to gain experience.. Or... there is nowhere to gain coin. Would help if Westgate sewers or Zhentil Keep sewers could have a quick look at.

[Elenthis]

Yes. I tend to agree that Waterdeep and silverymoon are FILLED with ways to make coin from level 5 on. The "Problem" as it were is the grind from level 3ish until level 20-ish. Its fantastic (I really love the idea) that hours on can affect your exp-gain. But I wonder if that might be hindering pre-lvl 20 characters a lot. A lot of players like to make it to about level 12-15 before they start the real RPing, and frankly, I dont blame them. Until level 15, just travelling to say...the friendly arm inn for a RP would take them a great deal of time. Anyhow...

Low-level characters supplying high-level characters with stuff? YES! Heres the problem.
Lets say I want some fur. I use it a LOT. So I'll go spam-kill some furry halflings...er...something...until I have about 50 some fur. Now...if I DIDNT have access to large amounts of fur, but noobs did...this would spark commerce. A great example of this USED to be feathers and wood, which spawn from the dummies. I remember on one of my characters about 8 years ago, buying wood and feathers from ppl who could still go into the font. I highly endorse the idea of LIMITING the quantity of SOME BASIC components, and giving only characters lvl 15ish and below access to areas where they can be spam-killed. Please, please...do not, however remove entirely the ability for a single character to sustain themselves in any way. Encouraing commerce is an excellent thing, but until we have a 20-player who-list at 4am, we need self-sustainability, even if at a slightly higher cost to encourage commerce and RP.

~Elenthis.

[Alvirin]

Just a few idea sthat I'm not sure even if it would possible code:

Certain skills/spells would increase faster up to a certain level by their use when you are below a certain level, that would make those levels something as useful as the higher ones and there would not be

Also perhaps the creation of a command / mode / or simply by being grouped with another pc, in the way that those that making use of trade or a skill-like-trade get a bonus to it by having the low-level character around.

Other than that I can only think about increasing the number of small quests aimed at low-level characters that can be done within the hometown, rat exterminator, delivery boy and so on.

[Nysan]

The babbles were a nice idea, but not the real problem. As others have said, Waterdeep and Silverymoon have money-making opportunities for youngings. Some of those options are not as widely known as they could be, but they are there. Would like to see opportunities like this in other cities. Perhaps not the "hard RP" places like Mithril Hall or orc camp, they are designed to be difficult, but Westgate and the Keep for example. Would love to have have something in or near those cities that can rival the coin I could make at lvl 10 in Waterdeep.

The Gond forge is a neat addition as well, but I don't see how useful it is to younger characters. Granted, thats a personal view based on how much coin my characters hav spent gathering the materials to work the forge (would be cheaper if I was better at working it, hehe). I love the market it opened up for folks that can get the materials though... makes it alot easier to attain some of the more expensive components than mob slaughter to afford merchant prices.

Would love to see younger players have options to produce stuff higher ups would need/use, but as Elenthis pointed out, also hate to see such items completely out of the hands of older characters without younglings around. Speaking as one that is around at 4am often, that would be very disappointing.

The real hitch of under 20 life is the grind. Killing 500+ dummies in a newbie temple or killing more rats in the sewers than a character in Everquest teaches nothing about FK or RP. The time/exp ratio is a nice idea. Also would like to see skills/spells/weapon level faster under 20 up to a certain skill level (fast level til adept or something). Left trades out of that cause...trades are a totally different topic.

Side thought: Got a concern regarding one of the coin making opportunities, perhaps a bit too IC to discuss. Should I post it here or PM you Dalvyn?

[Dalvyn]

Send a mail to the builders address instead please. I hate PMs.

[Nysan]

Send a mail to the builders address instead please. I hate PMs.

No problem, been meaning to ask something for a while and this thread reminded me.

[Jaenoic]

I recently started a new character and saw some of the frustrations being mentioned concerning leveling. I found that once I hit level 2, the dummies in WD just weren't doing much for me, and by level 3 the dummies I was able to kill were giving me next to nothing. I was getting kind of frustrated by my limitation, but was a little scared to venture into the sewers at only level 3. But I eventually did head into the sewers, and found that I gained the next level very, very quickly so long as I didn't attack those nasty beetles. Then I went with a friend to Howling Peaks, and I was a little nervous about that... The companion was I guess somewhere in the 10's? I didn't ask but only assume. Anyway with the help of a friendly wizard's spells we were fine, and even after they wore off we were ok so long as we took the time to rest. The whole adventure awarded me two and a half more levels, which I was floored by. In particular, I liked that though my companion was most likely more than twice my level, I still gained seemingly plenty of experience.

As for the baubles, I saw them start popping up for sale in WD a little while ago, but had no idea where they were coming from. My first reaction was, hey these are pretty cool. They're vague enough to not be faith/class/whatever specific but unique enough that someone could add a little flavor to their equipment/roleplay. So I thought they were pretty cool. I can't say as to them providing money... But at first I was having difficulty getting more than a platinum at a time from just bashing basement dummies. Though a few quests quickly changed that.

I think I have enjoyed the benefits of the time-experience ratio multiplier, and honestly I think that's a fantastic system. Personally, I'm not really one for grinding, so finding that I can walk away from it, get into trouble(Oops I mean RP ), come back a few hours later and I level faster? That's sweet. That means two things to me:
1) Those grinding times when your goal is to just get to the next level decrease, as if in reward for also taking the time to RP
2) Adventures with friends in dungeons are more rewarding code-wise, again if you are taking the time to RP

Overall my lowbie experience was frustrating at first... But once I realized my options weren't limited to the basement dummies it became much nicer.

[Zynarc]

I don't know - why would a level 2 want to stay around for 20 hours (possibly idling, unless you have your name AUTHed early and have a description up) just to enjoy the benefits of better XP? A low level character has nothing to do on FK besides grinding. I'm sorry, but that's how it works here. Right now, level 10 is the magical numbers. Below that, you get to enjoy the benefits of no side effects from death, use of recall any time - but you cannot get faithed or classed.

There can be the argument that, if this is so, then let's start all characters at level 10. What's the point in the first 10 levels? To me, there really isn't any, besides giving new players a chance to get used to the system and older players to take advantage of it. As for the argument that there can and should be fun in the low levels (first 10 levels), I'd say yes, but not on FK. The system does not support it. Before anyone starts on "you could always RP", I'd like to raise the point - For newer players, that's possibly their first character. How long before their character name gets authorised? For older players, let's face it. There's a whole huge world out there besides Waterdeep, unless everyone starts in Waterdeep...

Which brings me to my next point. All these are great ideas. Wonderful. But they are too centralised around Waterdeep which already has enough to support. Truthfully, who can say that they don't hover towards Waterdeep when looking for RP, support, help, or to even create trouble? Who really bothers about small towns like Zhentil Keep or Westgate (supposedly home to evil RP) anymore?

To summarise, this does not help players who are new to the game, and does not exactly solve any problems for older players.

I propose a solution where levelling to 10 in the newbie temple was like before, they could do it in 1-2 hours. Sufficient time for people to get used to the MUDding or FK system, and short enough time for older players to feel that creating a new character isn't a chore.

[Nedylene]

This may be innappropriate on this thread but this thread reminded me of something I had forgotten. One of the hugest difference and hugest shifts from when I started to how it is now.

When I first started this mud I had so much fun. Levels 10-15 were easy to do, tons of help.. Could handle dummies and goblins with only a few mishaps. It was a push into the world and gave me a good base. As I went on each level became progressively harder, the higher I got the more it was stalling. I remember when FMs and heros were level 51 by code. And the HOURS and I literally mean HOURS grinding to get to level 50 on Nedylene and Tayza. Now adays though... Those higher levels.. They come like butter. Simply and easy. Even getting exp when you are at level 50, there are so many ways you collect it just walking around and fighting creatures on the regular map. Instead of the higher levels being a challenge everything has turned upside down and tilted the scales in the opposite direction. Now the lower levels are the challenge and the higher levels are simple.

Now, am I the only one remembering this HUGE fundimental change? Does anyone know how this change came to be? Or why we don't return to it?

[Nysan]

Nope, I remember that change... back when the old school dungeon had meaning. Though I don't remember the reasonings behind it. *shrug*

[Oghma]

level 10 is the magical numbers. Below that, you get to enjoy the benefits of no side effects from death, use of recall any time - but you cannot get faithed or classed.

You can get faithed at any level now I beleive.

How long before their character name gets authorized? For older players, let's face it. There's a whole huge world out there besides Waterdeep, unless everyone starts in Waterdeep...

Authorization usually occurs within 5-20 minutes after the name is posted currently, it will usually be done in under a day, which is up from two years ago when it took two to three days.

Most new characters begin in Waterdeep or another designated city that is kismet free so that they can learn to rp in an less demanding enviroment before undertaking other places like Zhentil Keep. The beneifit of this is that you end up with evil players that can appreciate and understand the rp they are undertaking as opposed to inexperienced players that may be over their heads.

I would not be against quicker leveling to level 10 I'd welcome the chance to have a bit more ease in under populated places, but I'd recommend different restrictions on those that take advantage of such places solely. Maybe have less loot or none drop but xp. Or creatures relatively easy to kill but do twice as much damage to armour over a prolonged visit or an environment that itself is hostile to the character, (poison gas, fire, etc)

[Sszaghar]

Levels 1-10 are nothing but non-stop grinding and are difficult for any class, though moreso for a wizard. I am not saying it should not be, wizards are renowned for being the hardest class to play, but their strength --magic-- is dumbed down to the point where you can barely use it until you have meditate.

In my opinion, wizards should get meditation at creation, or at least by level two. Otherwise, wizards have to wear the training armour and bash their way through the levels.

3.5 Edition Level Chart For Wizards:



I understand that since you can rest at any time to refresh spells, the amount of spell slots you get are reduced a little, but still... I have seen some skills that are set at a ridiculously high level before you get them.

Yes... I know I "plug" wizards a lot, but they are my preferable class to play. Very fun when represented correctly.

[Athon]

I'd also like to make a statement about how slow the process of leveling for a new character has become. After two and a half hours of just killing dummies, I'm a whopping level 3 and 1/3rd to level 4. Furthermore, I'm a priest, so my strength is low and I cannot train any spells (no xp means no spells). I've had just as many improvements to my weapon skill (two) as I have levels gained.

Levels 0-10 are always my least favorite for making a new character - there are little opportunities to RP and I can't go anywhere because of how low a level I am. With leveling being this slow, it almost seems like a deterrent for me to make a new character, especially one I just invested 700 kismet in.

[Sadrin]

Well, as a note from what I've experienced with my characters, the Temples are absolutely worthless after lvl 3, the only reason you should go back is to pick up any of the low level skills/spells you want and to get free bless and armor from the priest.

And for the time you do spend in the temple, only kill tiny and small dummies, any xp gain from the larger dummies is negated by the fact that you can kill 5 tiny/small dummies in the time it takes to kill 1 large/huge.

The only reason I actually stayed until lvl 3 was because that seems to be the general level where you can start reasonably killing stuff outside of the Temple.

[Rhiel]

If you would have asked me when I first started my new character, I would have been in utter and total agreement with the general wave of discontent concerning low-level grinding. However, a few levels later (20-something later >.<), I feel inclined to throw in my two coppers.

It is a fact that level 1-10 definitely, and arguably 15-20 are an exercise in typing the "k" button so much that the letter rubs off. BUT...now that I'm "in the mix" a bit more, gaining coin isn't too difficult if you know where to go, and in such areas, ANY PC (regardless of race, religion, creed, sex, or nationality [Equal Opportunity heehee]) can go and make a decent living. XP too comes a bit more easily after 20, and really from 15+.

I've had little trouble leveling, training, making coin, etc. since level 10. So, if you just hang in there, put in that initial time dump, and it's smoother sailing from there. I promise.

[Vibius]

Not so long ago I created a new character, the three first levels by killing dummies were easy enough, the fourth took a few hours of mob slashing.

Fifth to Tenth, were not as bad as I thought that they were going to be, but because I was grouped most of the time, mobs that would likely eaten alive to any of us alone were relatively safe when grouped and our experience raised fast enough, and sure it was more fun, so this is my advice; find friends and stop killing dummies.