Lichdom and a very simple idea of how to code it.

[Lystianna]

I was disappointed to hear that lichdom isn't offered as a viable option to players, due to it being too much work. I was sad. But I've got an idea on how to make it simple.

Requirements:
-Mage (I've never heard of a non-mage becoming a lich) very high level
-Quest to become a lich
-- The last stage of which requires a spell of lichdom that requires the help of two other magi to cast
-Note: I have read at least one (in fact I think it was exactly one) instance of a non-evil lich, so I don't think alignment restriction would be neccessary
-Note: the quest materials in the lich quest should purge themselves on completion, to prevent re-use

Synopsis:
Lich would be a 'high' class like Ranger or Paladin, at least as outlined by this idea. Liches would function exactly the way that mages do except they receive massive bonuses to spell speed, damage, spell slot repop rate, and casting levels. True to the concept of the lich they cannot be killed as long as their phalactary exists.

Restrictions:
Said phalactary may not remain in the lich's inventory for more than one day (absolute time, not time logged in) to prevent the uber-powerful caster dudette from just carrying it around with them and being completely unkillable.
As long as the phalactary exists, the lich may not permanently be killed. However, if said lich's phalactary is destroyed, the player will die, without any hope of raising or any other form of reincarnation.

The Simple Part:
1) upon the final step (creating the phalactary) of the quest to become a lich, a prog, not an imm (cuts down on players bothering imms) changes the race and class of the questee to 'lich'
2) when the lich character is 'killed' the game will automatically run a check to see if that particular lich's phalactary is intact. If it is, the lich will simply respawn (compete with inventory) at their home point. If it isn't, the lich dies.
vastly oversimplified example code in VB:
Player.OnDeath()
If Player.HasPhalactary()=True Then
Player.Restore()
Player.Recall()
Else
Player.Delete()
End If
End Sub

[Horace]

My only problem with it is that it's not a class. Much like the Blackguard suggestion - both are not classes. Lichdom is a template that is added to the character...and a fairly powerful one.

With the current focus being sticking to core dnd, I'd be cool with someone applying for it with extended roleplay. But I can't imagine it'd be an open class, with it being so far off canon dnd mechanics.

Personally I believe barbarian/monk/sorcerer should be placed into game before any non core class, prestige class, or template.

[Raona]

Horace - Valid or not, I think the argument is this approach makes it so simple to enact as to not compete for time with other initiatives.

Lystianna - Would a putative lich be tied to a location (near their phalactary), or remain free to move and do everything else they could do while alive?

[Horace]

Horace - Valid or not, I think the argument is this approach makes it so simple to enact as to not compete for time with other initiatives.

But if the approach is so simple in a way that deviates from canon, I think that should be pointed out. Lich = template.

[Elerian]

Give Phylactery horse.
Stable Horse.
Enjoy eternity being unkillable code wise.

Honestly, everyone in the mud has an infinite number of lives anyway(its not like anyone ever has to face perma-death), so why even bother to become a lich? If its to give spell damage bonus, increased stats, and other bennies to probably one of the strongest and most powerful classes in the mud then no thanks.

[Selveem]

I'm generally not one to snuff creativity, but Liches are ridiculously overpowered as a Race for FK..

Personally, I would _love_ to have a Vampire character, but knowing how strong they are in D&D (especially with feats that remove their various racial penalties), I have never pursued.

Perhaps a half-Lich template or something might be alright (I haven't checked if there is such a thing or what the stats would be, so don't shoot me)?

Just trying to find a middle ground.

[Tortus]

There are demi-liches. Pitiful creatures, they're pretty much just flying skulls.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/demilich.htm

[Lerytha]

What might be an idea, might be to just tag the player immune to mind, and vulnerable to "light", or something. Vulnerable to healing and healing at harmful spells. No major strengths, no major weaknesses. And just make it a roleplay choice, rather than a massive class.

[Lystianna]

Give Phylactery horse.
Stable Horse.
....

Thanks for pointing that out. I had thought it would be able to go without saying that the item must remain in-game (while the lich is logged in) and thus be destroyable if another character finds it, but apparently I have to spell that out too.
An item with a 'phalactary' flag would be designed as such that it cannot be handled by NPCs. This prevents two things: One, what you just described; and two: 'trash' mobs walking in, picking up a phalactary, and wandering around with it.
Honestly, I can't begin to imagine how that flag would work. Maybe an mprog on the item itself so if mpforces an npc that picks it up to drop it?

... Lystianna - Would a putative lich be tied to a location (near their phalactary), or remain free to move and do everything else they could do while alive?

I hadn't thought about that. I'm not sure in D&D which is the case when it comes to liches, but I THINK that Liches are typically free to move around. Most just choose not to move too far from their Phalactary.

[Larethiel]

A lich should be able to move around how they please, Larloch has been known to wander far and wide in his search for remains of Netherese things, Szass Tam moves all about Thay and sometimes across Faerun, too. And Zhengyi the Witch-King even invaded a country, thus moving around quite a lot as well.

But personally, I think liches are too powerful to be a playable template on FK. They might be cool as NPCs like Feebov, trainers/questgivers.

Liches would function exactly the way that mages do except they receive massive bonuses to spell speed, damage, spell slot repop rate, and casting levels. True to the concept of the lich they cannot be killed as long as their phalactary exists.

Currently, mages can become very very powerful, they do not even be that high a level. A lich would, as stated, receive very powerful additions and is, de facto, unkillable, unstoppable and probably walking doom. That is, too, once your lich found a good and secret hiding spot for his phylactery, and even on FK it is pretty easy to hide an item very good Be it...a player dwelling, a stabled horse/horse in an unscryable area, a bag placed in the luggage-system etc.etc.

Or just the moneypouch or beltpouch of the lich, for who would be able to take it from the lich without dieing?

Of course, there are 'weak' versions of liches, too, those created by more, really powerful liches (f.e. those that Larloch makes and fills his Warlock's Crypt with), demiliches etc.

Also, with an undead template, you will be able to ignore a whole stat (Constitution) and sidestep every roll/affect/effect that Constitution has on your character.

Also, here the template (correct me, if it is the wrong one):

http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org ... /LICH.html

Paralizying touch attacks, damage reduction, a mass of immunities, aura of fear, additions to 3 Stats while dropping one completely, additions on 6 skills, Increase of HP to a d12, turning resistances etc.

With best regards.

[Lerytha]

Buuut... if we just conveniently ignored almost all the uber-benefits of the class, and just made it an RP choice with the most obvious weaknesses and strengths of undead, it would allow a player to have the RP, and allow other players the whole, "OMG, he's a lich!" RP of terror. Without... breaking the game.

[Nedylene]

At one time there was a lich in game... Ioulaum. At one time there was a vampire in game.. Sable.

Both supported by code, both made "race" as appropriate. When push comes to shove both races are coded and both have been tested as a player race. It was found that they are too powerful.. Heal spells harm them for sure, but their hand to hand attack is different, their resistances are through the roof and killing them was a veritable PITA. An adventurer that is almost unkillable in a game where campaigns are led by NPC mobs without a real mind behind them. They cannot know they need to use a different spell on them, different combat mode etc. I believe after letting two PCs become them and run a test on them it was found that these races/special rps are too powerful for the way the game is currently run.

The main questions that keeps them unplayable are:
How can you make a game run by NPCs smart enough to know when their attacks are ineffective?
How can you keep a phylactery set to a player who may or may not be in the game?
Is it fair to keep a Phylactery in this way to a character signs on suddenly permenant dead?
How can you make a character light sensative when day - night - day does not follow real world time?

They go on and on. When push comes to shove though, unless they WANT over-powered characters there is really no place for lich's and vampires in this mud. That may change in years to come but I'm not a fortune teller.

[Rhiel]

Or, you could do away with any coding and just make lichdom an RP enhancer.

[Namic]

Personally I wouldnt want any of the bonus's or anything, I think it would be an extremely good rp experiance to make a lich and treat it just like a rename. I for one would simply love to try the rp instances. idk if it is possible to code anything like this but just rename the race without the benifits that the race gets. simple no uber powers of doom and role play experiances.

[Kohadon]

Rite, I was thinking along Namic's line. No real difference from a regular char, just maybe instead of having to be rezzed in the normal means, they just recall in the Keep's cemetary. No phylactery, cuz no one really wants to spend time enough to get a lich and lose it permanently. And perhaps they get a few hard to find nec spells

[Tavik]

To me, I think it should really be all or nothing. Liches are supposed to be super powerful unbeatable creatures that pretty much just kill anyone stupid enough to face them. Now, granted, in FK the liches are beatable, but it generally takes a large group to do so. That being the case, pretty much everyone acts like they should regarding them: very cautiously. Now, if we throw in liches as a player option without the benefits, they sort of lose that scariness factor. They really just become wizards without skin. To me, that is going to detract a lot from the feelings a lich should evoke. Instead of saying "Good gods! It's a lich! Run before it sees us!" the more powerful characters end up saying something like "Get away from me you bony rat before we play monkey in the middle with your head again." Hopefuly that makes sense? Another thing to consider is that this would sort of be treated like a single step to fame. Fear/respect is something that takes a LONG time to earn, especially for evils and I think it kind of undermines their efforts if you just get a whole bunch of young evil wizards twinking their way up to become powerful enough to finish the lich quest and then boom, pretty much instant fear (or else you run into the lack of fear I stated above). And one last thing to consider is that liches are pretty rare. Making them available to everyone kind of defeats the point as about half the mud will start working toward getting a lich as soon as they are made available.

Basically, I like the idea a lot. I think it would be cool and a great RP center. However, persistent player liches would just be too unbalancing or too detracting from the aura (so to speak) of the lich. I think the best route to go is to turn this into a realms wide RP or something where someone trustworthy is given full-fledged lichdom and that is used to drive a large RP, but in the end that person reverts back to normal to keep things balanced.

Just my two cents.

[Aveline]

ok, now I'm admitting right from the start, I know nothing about liches other than the ones in game can hand my characters' backsides to them in a matter of moments. But I do have a couple of ideas about offering them as an option..
1. firstly, I think they should have a phylactery...but it should come with a few stipulations.
a. they should -have to- store it somewhere that it is possible another player could find it..no stables or in a bag within a bag within a
bag within a purse (Don't laugh, I have a few characters that have items lost because of that system). You don't have to make it
-easy- to find, but it has to be possible.
b. If another player were to actually find it we could have rules stating that they could not actually destroy it, thereby destroying the
character. Sort of like our rules on stealing, if you find the phylactery, you have to provide the lich character with the opportunity
to retrieve it. Ransom it somehow, or he can come intimidate you and get it back.
2. There was another thread asking about things for level fifty players to look forward too after level 50. Maybe something like this would be an option for that. Once a mage reaches level fifty they could apply for the rp to be a lich. Technically a lich would have to be a character with a lot of experience anyway, so it wouldn't be something someone should start with. There would have to be another thing or two to be thought up to offer the other classes..but just an idea.

I won't make any comments about what sorts of powers they should or should not get, because I really do not know anything about that. But I will say that I think we have some pretty responsible players of very powerful characters here. And they do not just go around snuffing out people right and left. Atleast I haven't ever been snuffed out by one of them, well there was that once..but it was actually the dirty chicken that finished me off and not the character. I think if it is applied for and maybe with a kismet attachment, we can give people the benefit of the doubt when having these powers. Whatever powers they may be. If they have to be a high level to achieve it anyway, they are already going to be pretty powerful if they are a mage. What difference would those powers really make to one of our already super powerful mages we have in game right now? And, if the imm team feels they aren't handling the power they already have well, then they don't have to give them the opportunity of the experience. Let them work on it and apply again later.

I also think that if they are introduced into the game they should be done at a very slow rate. I do -not- want to log in one day and suddenly see that every high level mage in game has been liched. I don't post on stuff like this too often, but fk isn't working for me at the moment and this seemed like it would be a really fun option for some people. Not something I think I'd personally ever do, just because I do not know enough about them and really stink at the whole evil and cackling thing. I would like to see some eventually though.

[Gwain]

Based on past performance I don't know if it is a good idea to introduce liches as a playable race/clas/rp. My reasoning is that currently even with limited special race selection we still have player characters bending against the bar or just skirting the ic reasonings with tieflings or halfdrow or even fay races. In the past I can cite two occasions where the watch had to escort a lich character out of the city because they decided to sit in the market square or travel around in public selling things. If it were ic, special measures or an army might have removed the lich in question.

For me, its a matter of trust and guarantee that there would be no abuse before anything else would be undertaken. I know of course, that the climate and patterns of the game often make it difficult to host an isolationist rp (boring or short term in some cases) So I would recommend that a roleplay like this not be dismissed completely, but instead, be put on hold until there is a more diverse or populated playerbase with more areas that could utilize a lich character (The only areas that come to my mind now that could sustain this rp are Menzo, Zhentil Keep and Skullport)

[Selveem]

I think it is also important, when deciding to introduce a race into the MUD, that the race's general demeanor be taken into account.

The standard Liches are not a very nice race, at all. Even the way in which they are created is, well, not really FK material:

The lich creation process is often described as requiring the creation and consumption of a deadly potion which is to be drunk on a full moon; although the exact details of the potion are described differently in various sources, the creation of the potion almost universally entails acts of utter evil, such as using as an ingredient the blood of an infant slain by the potential lich's own hand, or other, similarly vile components. The potion invariably kills the drinker but if the process is successful he rises again some days later as a lich.

The only good "Liches" that I am aware of, are the Baelnorn, but even those are not without possible flaw:

To become a baelnorn (instead of a lich), a character must be of a non-evil alignment (usually Lawful Good). However, a baelnorn may become evil after the ritual, as seen in the character Tordynnar Rhaevaern, detailed in the supplement Lords of Darkness.

I think, though we have flexibility in our setting, that we should try to remain as close to FR setting as possible. Liches are a murderous race and, as with all murderous races, we should take care that there are enough reasons that these races may _not_ force players to go against the PK rules in FK. A good example of that balance would be the Orc, and even those are a very difficult RP to balance.

I'm not saying this may dissuade from the addition of the race, but I fear that the compromise may be too great in order for them to fit into our setting with the rules and still maintain that fear any Lich should command (excluding Baelnorn).

[Lerytha]

Baelnorns are extremely scary, Selveem! Other than that, it was a very well-thought post you made, and I agree.