Unwelcome races in waterdeep

[Oghma]

I agree that a clean and simple solution to all this would be to make it clear that all planetouched are clearly planetouched.

As Horace pointed out, the code already does that, and such a rule would feel natural (and wouldn't require any code modification).

As Oghma pointed out, if you picked up "tiefling" to play him or her as a human, then why not simply choose "human" as the race and roleplay or pretend that you have some demonic blood?

And to those who would say that this rule goes against their freedom to choose to play a planetouched with very minor physical oddities ... then I would reply that, by forcing other people NOT to notice those (minor) physical oddities, you are acting against other players' freedom to play observant PCs.

This quote points to the following in my reasoning:

1. The admins and imms will welcome applications for human characters with small amounts of demon ancestry with the proper application (or foregoing applications, I can't be sure)

2. Planetouched are clearly planetouched. They need to be prepared to deal with various situations or find a means to exist within the tumult of what your character is racewise.

3. Reacting negatively to people noticing the race as a violation of rp freedom is somewhat hypocritical since you by doing this you may be violating their right to be observant pc's.

So, what should happen? Two ways to be pulled. As I said I am in favour of tieflings and monstrous races following the line of rp they're presented with, as demonic creatures in appearance, but none the less watered somewhat. I would most likely not stop or hinder someone within their rp to criticize a tiefling for being in the wrong place for a tiefling to be icly, but I know that this could be an issue dealt with exclusively icly to reflect rp. I do not see it as something that has to be discussed ooc more than it has or will be. You really can't justify it beyond your ic rp and the interpretation of those around you, no matter how many arguments for or against it. I aim for a specific place though and not a whole; If you play and create a tiefling that will sit openly in the market square be prepared for opposition to it as part of an ic roleplay line. Do your best to find solutions but don't expect everyone to go along with it or against it just because you think you look a certain way.

My personal opinion for the last part:

I'd like to remind you that a Tiefling is not classified as a monsterous race. A monsterous race, yes, I would agree should not be let in the gates - like when I was a Drider. I should not go in the gates - I knew it, so I didn't. That's completely different than a humanoid who can look EXACTLY like a human.

A race that looks exactly like a human is most likely a human, if you want to make a tiefling that looks exactly like a human, once again, I'd reccomend apply for the rp of demonic blood splatterings in a human pc, then wasting your kismet on a 'leet' race with no intent to be apart of that race. It is not my intent to single out that fact, but honestly just because you can accomplish something in tabletop or in a single player computer game with programed npc or a mmorpg does not mean it will translate completely to fk. Though there are many, many rp friendly places for all races in the game, they just need to be populated. Or you can suggest them or help plan them. Not to set a damper on this ideal, but when it comes down to it, if we are going to make rare races, what is the point if they are the same as regular ones?

[Brodnur]

I can see the logic in many of the statements here, just want to drop my two cents worth in. I play a tiefling, that does have in his desc an overall human form, though certain aspects clearly announce his planar heritage. Now, my question is this: At times, he has found it necessary to visit Waterdeep, though never without some form of being either unseen completely, or to attempt to disguise his more overtly demonic features, such as a deep cowl, mask, etc, etc. Would that be considered good or bad RP, since he was there to interact with mostly NPC shop-keepers, make a purchase that no one else would/could do at the time? I did a check, with the gate guards, to see if it was hard-coded for Tieflings to be thrown out, as with some of the other races, and only a stern look accompanied with a warning was the result. He doesn't go there every day/month/year even, just when it is needed, and almost always in some sort of disguise that, iccly at least, if not oocly, conceals his most suspect features. I do not myself, see anything wrong with it, and actually feel that catching a glimpse of "someone suspicious" (iccly) a tiefling(oocly) can add to general RP within the area, since nothing gathers heroes than a common enemy within easy reach. I have had several good conversations with some of the "goodies" while in WD as my tiefling, and none of them have been within MS.
Didn't mean to turn into a rant, folks. Sorry if it comes across that way, just my thoughts on the matter.

[Gwain]

Good example of rp has actually been established icly for tieflings in wd. They're supposed to keep out of public and populated places, maintain a low profile and leave immediately if reported or seen by citizens of watch alike. This is possible because of the size of Waterdeep and the scope of its maze-like streets.

A bad rp would be to idle in the market square, yell at the top of your lungs or take widely accessible public routes through the city. Mostly tieflings are not supposed to be in Waterdeep and will be reminded of such is caught, if they follow the prescribed good rp they probably could enter and leave withing a reasonable time frame.

[Raona]

I want to second what Gwain eloquently said, adding that the rationale for the difference vs. Drow is that some tieflings (with their taint less obvious, or at least hide-able) could realistically interact with a merchant without sending them into a panic, and/or walk the streets without invoking immediate panic at even a glimpse of their face. That said, if it became clear to most any citizen of Waterdeep that there was a tiefling in their midst, they would probably panic...and tieflings entering the City should be well aware of that, view it as a grave hazard, and comport themselves accordingly.

That leaves open the question of whether it is fair for someone to play a tiefling that looks like a human. They gain significant coded advantages, without the main disadvantage of being a visual outcast. We have decided not to weigh in on this OOC matter by setting a ban against tieflings for WD. Forgotten Realms lore has it that demon taint can be well-hidden indeed, to the extent that some who carry it don't even know themselves that they are tieflings. However, the FK tiefling race is clearly intended specifically for those who express it to an appreciable extent (physically and in terms of their innate tendencies). It has long been (and I think continues to be) a topic of debate just how much physical manifestation is necessary for one to justify setting their PC's race as tiefling.

[Hrosskell]

Just reading over this a little, and wondering some things. It says in most resources, and I think maybe even our helpfiles, that most planetouched don't even know that they are planetouched. How would this information realistically be given to them? Their parent(s), who may have abandoned them or lied to them? Their peers, who may be uneducated that the entire astral world exists? I think in these ideals lays a strong argument that "calling someone out" may be wrong. I play an aasimar pretty regularly, and for most of his youth I played him as thinking his "deformities" were magic experiments gone wrong, or something of that sort--if someone were to call him an aasimar, he wouldn't even know what the word meant.. So what is my reaction to such RP? Am I wrong for the story I chose for him, even though throughout his life his understanding of his own bloodline has been played out and expanded upon? Aren't our characters supposed to grow, to develop? Or, do we fall within a cookie-cutter story for races that are supposed to be exotic, different paths of roleplay? We state that we know what we are and who made us that way, and we understand what we're allowed to do and not allowed to do. Does that sound like a freedom of choice roleplay environment to anyone?

/endrant.

Just my thoughts on the whole subject.

[Brodnur]

I think that is a great way to RP his life out, actually. Though I feel that some indivuals may be raised knowing who, as well as what, they are. I RP my tiefling as knowing not only what he is, but who is demonic ancestor is, and play off of that as his background story, though it is one that few enough have heard, which is also a part of his story. I don't think there is any "right" or "wrong" way to play one, other than to go completely against the true nature of the character, (I.E. a good tiefling, or an evil aasimar, etc, etc.) Within those extremely loose parameters, I think nearly anything goes as far as character development is concerned.

[Horace]

Am I wrong for the story I chose for him, even though throughout his life his understanding of his own bloodline has been played out and expanded upon? Aren't our characters supposed to grow, to develop? Or, do we fall within a cookie-cutter story for races that are supposed to be exotic, different paths of roleplay? We state that we know what we are and who made us that way, and we understand what we're allowed to do and not allowed to do. Does that sound like a freedom of choice roleplay environment to anyone?

You're not wrong for playing it that way, if you're playing up the naivety/ignorance of the PC not knowing. But anyone who points at you and says, "you're definitely an aasimar, how can I tell? Well you look exactly like an Aasimar" aren't wrong either. They are a specific race of humans. If your trait is so minor that no one can tell you from a regular human, then you're bloodline is deluded enough that you don't deserve to be called Aasimar.

All this sort of roleplay does is force other player's PC's to become stupid and not be able to point out an Aasimar or Tiefling for the sake of the other player. Characters grow and develop in much more dynamic ways than suddenly realizing they aren't normal humans.

Aasimar/Tiefling don't have their own culture or society, being one or not being one doesn't change your PC at all. I personally don't understand why they're in the game to begin with...but people seem to like them, and I'm a libertarian when it comes to gaming.

The only reason to be an Aasimar or Tiefling, is to /look different/. That is the sole reason. Everything an Aasimar and Tiefling can be, humans can be - and all three use human culture and personality traits. Playing an Aasimar or Tiefling without the desire to look decidedly different, is just goofy.

Make characters interesting with personality, culture, and depth of character...not race.

Plus, Aasimar/Tiefling's have darkvision. It's literally impossible to be a real planetouched without knowing, at the very least, you aren't a normal human. Then it'd only take 5 minutes, being able to read in a library, or asking any adventurer.

I'm mostly just against Aasimar and Tieflings because the sole reason they were brought into Faerun was because of the success of Planescape - so instead of leaving Planescape the beautiful snowflake game that it was, in unique feel and flair, they brought all the stuff that made Planescape glorious and force fed it like a foie gras duck.

For the record, in canon tieflings many times aren't noticeable physically. This is do to their vile nature, though a tiefling with more physical traits would be assumed to wield more fiendish power (even though I don't understand why you just wouldn't be an evil human if you don't want to look different) . Aasimar aren't reflected in this manner. For code purposes I understand why tieflings are forced to be obvious. A simple solution is to plan ahead slightly and pick human, and app for fiendish bloodline.

Picking RP over mechanics, likely goes a long way with the imm's who take applications. A lot longer than I planned, for whatever reason the "cookie-cutter" comment got under my skin...I happen to view it as the exact opposite.

[Larethiel]

Just a remark concerning the unwelcome races in Waterdeep For wizards that want to have a diploma from the School of Wonders to join another mage-guild, it's incredibly hard to go through the quests there if you are a tiefling/halfdrow/halfhoobaboobah. It means a lot of entering Waterdeep and trading with places such as the House of Wonder that might actually not deal with such outsiders and perhaps even faith enemies.

[Brodnur]

For wizards that want to have a diploma from the School of Wonders to join another mage-guild, it's incredibly hard to go through the quests there if you are a tiefling/halfdrow/halfhoobaboobah. It means a lot of entering Waterdeep and trading with places such as the House of Wonder that might actually not deal with such outsiders and perhaps even faith enemies.

Couldn't agree more. But that is expected, and even welcomed, I think, by those with enough kismet to create one of the outsider races. And the look on the faces of those gathered in the MS when my tiefling plopped smack down in the middle of them was worth nearly all the hardships involved with his rp alone. I can see that many Players are against those races, with some very good reasons, I'm just glad that they are available for those willing to play them, either in ICC ignorance of their heritage, or not.