Faith Leaders

[Leveran]

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[Harroghty]

I recommend that you use out of character (OOC) communication directly to the faith manager (FM) in question if you feel this way. If you are trying to join a faith and have actually interacted with the FM then consider yourself fortunate. This is the hardest part; often times people attempt to join a faith without a FM or with one who is often absent.

Remember that this is a game and it is ultimately supposed to be fun, but it is a role-play enforced game. The FM might be slow because they expect you to improve in some way or another or they just might not understand exactly what you want from them. If you feel that it is not in character for your player character (PC) to be blunt, then just write the FM a private message (PM) or use the OSAY or OTELL commands and ask them for help. I believe that you will find that most players of Forgotten Kingdoms are pretty friendly and are genuinely interested in helping you out.

[Leveran]

I even pointed out, OOCly, these facts, and was given a pat on the head.

[Arnof]

I understand your apathy, but I think there's some things to consider first.

A) It's just a game, pump your brakes.

B) You've been playing for what? A month? Maybe a little more? That's by no means a long time. Players play their characters for years, they -keep- playing them for years, so things don't get uninteresting just 'cause you hit level 50 and top off your god-love meter and supplicate whatever's available.

C) Our FMs, our staff and our immortal council doesn't just grow up into their posts. They're picked by the people who make this game available to us. To suggest that the torch just be passed along like an FM post isn't a position you want filled by the best RPing, most well-versed player just seems like something that FK's player-base isn't going to stand up for.

D) It's just a week. I can't think of something IRL that carries the same gravity of choosing a faith that I'd want to see completed in just a few months time.

E) FK is an RP-enforced MUD and RP isn't hinged on being a member of a faith. Nothing is halting you from playing your character as it stands. You might -want- to RP his as a faith member, but FK's a living, breathing world and obviously things aren't so mailable for any of us irl. Be creative, if you think the faithing process is taking too long, keep the issue IC, maybe the church isn't running efficiently, maybe it looks like the FM is falling out of graces with his/her deity, maybe there's a war going on that the FM is away participating in and the matters of the faith aren't being attended to in the best way.

Bottom line is, I think you just need to be patient. A week, 10 days? That's small popsicles in reality.

B

[Harroghty]

Believe me, I understand your frustration, but I also believe that this sounds like an issue best discussed between you and the FM in question.

If you feel that you have made yourself clear enough to them and did not receive a satisfactory answer then, at this point, I recommend that you just wait and be patient. Once your character is a member of that faith then you will have more ability to be pro active and help other players who would like to join the faith. You might discuss hosting events with the FM or you might write a book about the faith's doctrine. In time, you may be able to help new players out or may even become a faith manager yourself.

[Leveran]

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[Leveran]

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[Arnof]

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Edit:
The above content was redacted.

[Aveline]

In one of the above cases, I did just that... in the other, I have tried to set up RP in the past, saying -directly- "Hi, I want to join your faith, can we RP?" and was told "Sorry, dealing with kids." Like I said above, RL happens. Okay. Then I get to RPing with this person, or trying, and I get about one pose every 10 minutes or so over a 2 hour period resulting in me wasting my time, and not even getting a faith quest out of it.

I don't -think- I've had to deal with you in any faith matters...but one thing I will say is that with me personally...the faiths matters are very important to me and one of my favorite parts to the game. If you deal with me, you will not come to me and get a quest after just one talk or one rp session...even if it is twenty hours long. It takes atleast a few sessions of the characters getting to know each other and judging their depth of knowledge about the faith. Watching them in other situations to see if they live by the teachings of the faith they are trying to join and getting the reactions of others about that person.

Yes, it's an RP enforced game... and a LOT of many character's RP (at least mine) revolves strongly around their deity. This is especially ESPECIALLY true for priests. There is a bit of a catch-22 here though. Priests need to be faithed to have access to the larger selection of their spells, so their eager for it to move quickly.

I think you'll find that every FM is aware that priests need to get faithed to get their spells. If you have an active character with an active FM, then the process may not take as long -if- your character is knowledgeable of the faith. I am online A LOT, I keep my eye open for hopefuls being online so I can rp with them when I can. I don't care what class your character is, or how many hours they have logged. If you do not show a good knowledge of your faith..then it is going to take a while. You'll have to go through more lessons and and more tasks. (I'm not talking about any one character in particular here)

Another situation, with another character waiting to be faithed. He has completed his faith quest, but has been told he has to wait 7-10 more RL days until he can become an initiate so that some sort of mass raising can occur. Once again, this is unfair to my character, and me as a player. I did the quest, then had to wait 3 days to speak to the faith leader, just to be told I have to wait even longer in order to actually be raised, even though I've done everything that was asked of me. I even pointed out, OOCly, these facts, and was given a pat on the head.

Remember, you were once without a deity too. Remember how aggravating that was? Try to have some empathy for people who are trying to play the game. Just because -your- character can't progress any further doesn't mean you should limit my ability as a player to advance my character and enjoy what the game has to offer.

Ok..about the mass raising..something for you to think about here. The FM's are characters too. Getting new people into the faiths makes most of them just giddy. Did it ever occur to you that some sort of a mass raising might be something they are doing -for- you to enhance the rp experience of being raised into the faith rather than just tossing you a symbol and sending you on your way? Big faith ceremonies like that can be a lot of fun. I think it is really really unfair for you to tell people to have empathy for those that are trying to play the game, and that we are trying to limit you in anyway. I just got my first level 50 character and you know what? She didn't hit level 50 until she was not many hours short of hitting 3000 hours on that character (Gesine btw). And even now at level 50 and where she is in her faith, I see sooooo many ways for her to progress even more. And I can't remember how long it took for her to be faithed, but it took a lonnng time. I'd say atleast 6 months. I only have one other character that is in the 40 level range

Ok, you made another point somewhere about those of us that have been here a while not having to deal with some of these same issues. That we have cliques and that we can just pull strings... honestly that really pees me off just a tad for you to say that just because we've been here longer we do not put in the same amount of work with our characters. The only advantage we might have is knowing who is in what faith so we know names to look for on the who list. With my last character I had faithed, I'll admit the process didn't take very long at all. But, I also busted my behind with that character, doing research and figuring out everything I could about that deity before I started trying to enter into the faith. Also making contact and establishing relationships ICly with people in that faith before I had her announce her intentions to join. When she got to the faith manager, she knew her stuff, and when she was set a task..she got right on it and didn't blow it off for a few days and act disinterested in it. She was faithed quickly, but she worked her little tail off for it to be that way. And I did not pull any strings for it to happen that way. And if you think that happens so much...my character to be faithed before that one had a fairly active faith leader...and she knew her stuff, and it still took about two RL years for her to get faithed. And she was a cleric. So she couldn't get a few of the higher level prayers for a while, oh darn. She had to complete a series of tasks to be faithed. Not just one. I didn't complain, I thought the interaction was fun. There was a period of a couple of months where the FM didn't show up..there are still so many ways you can rp and have fun...even on a cleric without being faithed.

Another of my characters is the daughter of a well respected member of a faith, and it still took a very long time for her to get faithed.
I guess she is a part of that 'clique' but she didn't get any special treatment at all. I think it is very unfair of you to make some of those assumptions about characters that have been around longer. Each of my characters have their own little 'clique' of friends they hang around with..but each of my characters has different friends and to my knowledge they are mostly all different players. My latest character I made for the sole purpose of getting her involved with some of the newer players we have so I can be involved with different people.

I know that many times the faithing process can be frustrating, but I think you do not really know everything that goes on behind the scenes or you think that more is going on than there actually is. A person may seem like an excellent candidate for a faith, but you never know what that FM might have up their sleeve that is making the faithing take a little longer than normal. And even if it is taking longer than you think it should be taking, try to enjoy the experience and do more to further your learning of the faith and your future brothers and sisters of faith. And you don't know everything that an FM may be doing to expand a faith. I know not everyone has time to make that their main priority...but I know a lot of people are putting a lot into that even as I write this post.

[Larethiel]

Another situation, with another character waiting to be faithed. He has completed his faith quest, but has been told he has to wait 7-10 more RL days until he can become an initiate so that some sort of mass raising can occur. Once again, this is unfair to my character, and me as a player. I did the quest, then had to wait 3 days to speak to the faith leader, just to be told I have to wait even longer in order to actually be raised, even though I've done everything that was asked of me. I even pointed out, OOCly, these facts, and was given a pat on the head.

I will comment on that quickly, because that FM in question there is me (at least I have reason to believe so, correct me if I am mistaken ). First I'd like to say, FMs do have a RL, too and there are many things in a person's life that come before FK. To the 7-10 days, that was never being said, it was said within the next week, mid to end, and even 7-10 days are not long. I do not see that this is unfair to you or your character. Faithing does not happen from the moment you make your desire to join known to ~snap~ 5 minutes later, it can take a few RL days to a few RL weeks, even months in some cases. You need to understand, that an FM wanting a faithing ceremony to be good needs a bit time of preparation and an acceptable time frame. According to the faith quest, many a FM gives more than one faith quest. You receive a first one, do it and receive a second one, upon completement you will be faithed or not, depending on several circumstances f.e. Knowledge about the faith in question. There was not going to be a mass raising as Corellon's faith hardly has enough active people to even consider a mass faith raising. I would recommend that you, instead of pointing at what you think is unfairness, come to see the positive things. Being faithed at a faith gathering that is called just to provide a fitting background for your faithing is only one aspect to enhance the rp of a hopeful/soon-to-be faithful. Faith gatherings also provide RP to more than one person, some faithful might even want to get directly involved with such a ceremony and it is an excellent chance to meet and greet other brothers and sisters within a faith. Being in a faith/Getting faithed is -not- about the opportunity of 'collecting favor as quick as possible' or the wanting of collecting favor -now-, which I also pointed out OOCly, I'd rather see the promotion of faith rp than the infamous 'favortwinking' . And, as a last thought, faiths differ in nature, every FM is different and has differing views of how the process of faithing should go. Some take longer, some take just short times, some prefer to teach a lot while others see their hopefuls to learn as they progress. Some faiths are more complicated than others/have a complex history/whatever. The first interest of an FM is to expand their faith and usually no hopeful will be turned down but the progress of being faithed does take some time. From an IC perspective, a FM is -the- mortal mouthpiece of their god, no FM wants to disappoint their deity by not preparing their faithful enough.

And, with all proper respect, I did not give you a pat to the head

With best regards.

[Nearraba]

I believe this post turned from faith leaders, to something else all together.
The original question was...

Okay, what's the deal with Faith Leaders? I mean, do they actually have any rules that they have to follow as far as getting new characters into the faiths?

Typing 'Help Faith Manager' in game will let you know this...
"Faith Managers are those characters who have found high favour with their god or goddess. These characters have the responsibility of helping their god manage the faith and maintain the respect of those of the faith and of allied faiths. For many, this rank in the faith is for life. For others they may lose faith and find themselves out of favour with their gods."

Their deity has picked those Faith Leaders / High Priests. They are the mouth peice of their god. They both Icly and Oocly show strong leadership skills and understand an extreme amount about the said deity. They have spent a long time roleplaying in their faith. I don't mean a few weeks, a few months. But a year, or years, even. They have proven themselves to be the best, and still hold that poisiton as their deity see's fit. You may also research Faith Leaders, High Priests, Faith Managers, in the search area of the forums and it will come up with a bunch of stuff, that may give a little more insight on what being one is all about.

Being in a faith grants your character the ability to go to certain faith only zones, which presumably means finding trainers, equipment, etc that are only available to your faith. Not to mention the various supplication benefits. That means that those that are waiting to get faiths are getting the raw deal. It seems like Faith Leaders, those who can give quests to hopefuls and such, should be made aware of this, if they're not already. Again, though, especially in the case of priests, so much hinges upon being in a faith, and I'm getting tired of 'joining a faith takes time'.

This is correct. Being faithed does grant your character these special abilities. They are not obligatory, however. As a player wanting to join a faith, your character is first expected to learn about it. Learning the "rules" and/or "codes." The joining of a faith is based on the judgement of the deity themselves and/or the faith manager and those acting as such. If they think it will take you a few days in real life to understand, or even a few weeks, that should be respected. And that does not stop your capability of role-playing... which Fk is all about. =)

You do not have to have a symbol, to worship the deities. Being faithed DOES TAKE TIME. Sometimes, a long time. I myself, for example, have a character that has been a hopeful of a certain deity for over two years, in real life time, because the faith manager of that faith happens to live off the opposite hours that I do. That's all right though, because I still role-play like she is devoted to that deity. She belongs to that god, even if not offically within the church. And eventually, I know things will work out. =) It should absolutely, NOT be something that is done overnight, in my opinion.

Just as a note. I'm not a faith manager. These are just my thoughts and opinions as a regular Fk player. =) I do not think there should be a minimum amout of time required for a faith leader to log in per week. Think about it... Wouldn't you much rather have a leader of a faith only to log on about five or six time a month, get things done, know their deity pretty much like the back of their own hand, and be able to role-play well... rather than a faith leader that only knows the basics of the god, say a few things here and there, and then poofs, heres your symbol. That's no fun.

Players that choose to play priests, need to take into account that a priest is expected to be the most knowledgeable about the deity they wish to follow. Because, when becoming a full priest, they are the one's that promote the ethics of that deity. You wouldn't want to see all sorts of non-informed Selunite priests running around and hugging drow. In a faith, the priests are pretty much the one's all the other classes look up to. Therefore, should take the most time in becoming faithed. It's not about a race. Not about who can get there first. It's about roleplaying. Its about having fun. And things take time. =)

Not everyone sits on their characters that they have had for years and years. =) I think of myself as a long term Fk devotee, and yeah, sure I get onto my old characters every now and again, but not to just sit there. =) Even the faith managers that we've been talking about, the people that have been here since the game was born, and myself even have newbie characters. I'm pretty sure I speak for the majority of the player base, when I say, We come here to Role Play. We come here to have fun and to enjoy ourselves. That's what a game is suppose to be about, right? And personally, I don't just roleplay with those people I've known for years. I actually look forward in meeting and playing with new comers; it's exiciting and fun to see new roleplay styles.

As for motivation... I'm not sure if you've been in Waterdeep recently but for an example, I'm hoping the Oghman's won't mind me using them for a moment. Currently, Oghma's faith is very public and very outgoing. His faith leaders actually do hang around his temples and they don't have a single problem expressing their joyous news about their faith and etc. They're expanding there faith left and right. However, not every faith leader your going to meet is going to be the same. Sometimes, you have to go around yourself, to the temple, or the forest, and look for the High Priests yourself. Sometimes, you might have to communicate in letters. Those faith leaders that are more coy or that they faith is more secretive, are still expanding left and right. Just because you don't see it, doesn't mean it isn't happening on the down low. =)

There are no pulling strings. Everything is still treated in character. Everything still has codes and rules. Everyone still has feelings. =)
I know I still get nervous/excitied/sometimes frusterated whe joining a faith. Everyone still has to go through the same thing as everyone else does. I can sit here and tell you it doesn't work like you think it does.. or the way you explained you think it does. Because, it really does not. Sure, the long term players know who to talk to... but everyone can know whom to talk to. =) That's what the handy-dandy little/big helpfiles were created for.... If you type 'Help Faith Manager' you will find a list of all the current and even some of the past faith leaders. And for everyone's benefit that list can be considered hearsay. So, you may use the knowledge of knowing that, Oh hey The High Faith Leader of Mielikki is Halia. I'll search her out. Or. Oh, Lath'lain is Cyric's most favoured, I'll try to prove myself to him. Etc.

All in all, things take time. Not everything is going to be considered fair by everyone.
Someone will always disagree with something. Just my two cents... of fifty rather...

[Leveran]

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[Skeas]

The kid does have a point.

A lot of faiths could seriously use either a new FM... or just an FM. A lot of them don't even have active FMs.

[Isaldur]

One point.

What I -am- seeing is about 20 pregnant female characters. That's rediculous. Frankly, and I'm sorry to say it, but I think adding that was a mistake. This place is turning into Firan at it's worst, in many ways.

Pregnancy applications have nothing to do with faithing.

As to your comments about how people have been playing for years and years and years? That's part of the problem. There is -major- cliquishness, favoritism, and OOC crossover occuring. Any time I go into a chatroom and see people hanging out and calling each other by a RL first name basis, I can tell you this is the case straight up. However, that's not what this thread was about.

Okay, well, I spent approximately 30 minutes writing a big long post on this subject refuting some comments, responding to others, expanding on others still, and then when I hit submit, I got an error message and all the text I had inputed was gone. So. I'm done with this topic. You all have your way of doing things, and don't care what the stupid newb who's only been here a month has to say about it anyway. Forgive me for trying to put in my two cents for making things work a little nicer for everyone.

I just want to reiterate this: I love this game. .... I know this thread is going to rock the boat some, but I'm not trying to piss people off. I'm trying to point out that this place can be -better- than it already is.

After reading the above I have a suggestion.

Post your complaints about favoritism, negative interactions from cliques, and OOC crossing into IC. The administration and staff have policies and resources in place to deal with these issues.

Nothing will get changed or fixed if both sides of the discussion are too busy with defensive posturing and generalized attacks instead of positive and professional discussion.

Open forum is great for input on mechanics, balancing, and suggestions about the game. When it involves conduct or roleplay of other players, especially those that have worked hard enough to attain a Faith Management ranking, you would be best served going to a closed forum like Complaints.

[Lathlain]

Let's make a few things very clear.

Yes, Leveran raises some valid points. Faith leaders are, in several areas, very thin on the ground. Is there room for improvement? Absolutely!

However - although raising points in a constructive, concise and progressive manner is an excellent and commendable route to follow, pointing fingers (no names named, but events heavily implied), "Rocking the boat" and providing popcorn is simply uncalled for.

I appreciate that you're riled, and to be honest I'm pleased to see it! It means you're passionate about the game we all love, which means we all share a common ground here. The problem is that you are making your excellent points with an accusatory tone - one which is only serving to heat matters up and wind people up the wrong way.

You haven't asked for my advice, but you're going to get it anyway. Calm down. Let's work things out, but let's do it in a way that doesn't make people feel they have to defend themselves against your zeal.

[Yevel]

Im sure being new is really hard as well, I know I have some problems here and there. One of the question people helped me greatly in this, they said that you just need to find your own way to go about things then you will be on your way! I actually believe that this is true, don't look at how others are holding you down look how they are helping you and try to continue that help to get what you want in character. Do not look at how FM's aren't there, look at the members of faith that are there and roleplay with them. You do not need a symbol to follow a god, you only need your own beliefs. The Gods see all, the imms are always watching. If you have played muds for a while like myself you know this, the IMMS are always around. Its always easy to look at the negative side of things, its a challenge to find the positive sometimes because you have to block out all the negative that screams.

[Mouat]

I know for myself, in the last month or so, I have not been on as much with my FM. But people are always free to email me, IM me or PM me here. I will log on and try to do what I can.

As for an FM to just promote somebody, not all FMs can do that. Some promotions can only happen from the Diety of that faith and not the FM.

[Balek]

I know that the imm team is aware of the fact that some faiths don't have an active FM or an active enough FM. I can assure you that there are steps being taken to deal with that, but these things take time. I'll offer three pieces of advice for people who want to join a faith.

First, make sure that you play the character that you need to have faithed. I can't stress this enough. Put information in that character's title that indicates that they want to be faithed (Hopeful of Godname). The vast majority of faith managers have multiple characters and will monitor the who list to see if there are any people around that need to be faithed. They will usually switch characters to deal with a faith issue if one arises. This is a matter of being proactive on the part of the person wishing to be faithed. It would be nice if all faith managers only played on their FM characters so that whenever they were online at all they would be available to faith people, but that wouldn't really be fair to them. Instead of expecting them to be available to you at all times, make yourself available to them and you might have success.

Second, we all recognize that sometimes you just can't find the FM you need to talk to. Sometimes they play in the wrong timezone, sometimes they don't play much at all. If you can't track down the FM you can put in an application on the message board. People do this all the time and it's a good way to get word to the higher ups that you need some help. You can also help yourself by praying to the god you wish to follow.

Third, be patient. I know this is said a lot about faithing but it's really essential. There are a lot of stories about people waiting two or three years to get faithed. That kind of thing certainly shouldn't happen. It's happened in the past and it's really a shame. I don't think that anyone should simply accept that it might take two years to get faithed. That said, a month or so isn't all that bad and I'm not really aware of anything that requires faithing in less time than that.

[Zorinar]

In a way, the funnest part of the faithing process is the wait. I understand that you might not think so right now, I certainly didn't when I was in your situation. Looking back, I can see that a lot of my character's initial development occured during that time. Trying to be the Tempurian wannabe and hanging around the other Tempurians that coached and guilded me was actually pretty fun. When I started Zorinar, there wasn't a Tempurian Faith Manager and I waited several RL months before I received a symbol. But I sent in an application, I sent a few "prayers" to Tempus, I talked with all the Tempurians and tried my best to let the staff know that I existed. In the end my patience paid off and they gave me a symbol. Now, I do a lot of prep work for people wanting to join the faith and I take several sessions of discussion and training and sometimes sparring before I pass them on to the ones above me, namely Jarris and Selveem. I find it fun, and I *think* the hopefuls have a good time as well. The whole initiation thing is really the best part of it, in my opinion. That you were told to wait 10 days or so might feel like a lifetime to you but.... wow... most of us waited months, some waited years. 10 days is cake:) You will get your symbol eventually and you will have a grand time both before and after. As for your comment about there being a lack of FM positions filled, well you are right but such is the nature of things I guess.

[Leveran]

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