Faith Leaders

[Ariala]

...Wow.
That's all I can say.

[Anya]

Finally, about RP:
I'm sick and tired of people telling me what RP is. I can RP circles around a lot of you. Those of you that think RP is sitting in Market square and spamming socials, flailing your arms around, stuff like that? HA! My RP experience is 15 years of table-top. In Junior High, we didn't even use books, we just made up stories. That time is interspersed with a number of MUDs and more importantly MUSH/MUX sites. To me, RP is like acting out a book, not pretending you're someone else and in a chat room. I have a -number- of pet peeves about people's behaviors, but I have tried to act on them in an IC fashion:

Looking at me when walking by me on the street, and not saying anything. This to me is tantamount to staring at someone on the street in a scrutinizing fashion. There is a 'glance' command for a reason. Places I've lived, you stare at someone long enough to check out all their equipment, size them up, etc, you're liable to get into a fight. An extension of this pet peeve is when you look at someone and see their limbs/extremeties/parts have adjectives like 'severly wounded' etc and don't look at their health, and then comment about how beat up they are. I treat those little descriptors as 'niggling injuries'... like when you get a cut on your hand. The wound closes up, scabs over, scab falls off, and you -still- have a twinge, some pain, signs of the injury.. does that mean you're 'beat up'? No. It's a 'niggling injury'.

Hello, um, okay, first off, I am not trying to pick a fight. I will express my opinion on your opinion like the reasonable people we all are.

How a person role plays depends on the person. I did not know anything about role playing until I was introduced to it in high school when I moved into the city from the country and was introduced to Dungeons and Dragons and Vampire the Masquerade. You were introduced to it earlier in life than I was, and that is fine. We each have our own styles, we are each unique.

In your post that I quoted above, I almost feel like that was a jab at mine and Tanya's characters who are infamously known for flailing. Our characters are young and silly. I know that I like to role play the aging process with my characters. The twins are in their twenties, and I know when I was their age, I was silly and fun loving. I know not everyone is like this, but this is how I choose to play Anya.

Socials are an easier way to express something like a blank face, a sneaky grin, and so forth. I use them because sometimes, my brain fizzles and I am like "Dur? How did I want to react to this?" A social is an acceptable, quick solution in a RP game.

Now, as a priest, Anya doesn't like to see people hurt and she is very concerned about people. As the player, I know that a bruise is the first step to having a mangled arm, in an extreme case. If you go out all bruised up, you are just that much closer to getting the message "You don't have a left arm" or something like that. So when Anya offers to heal a minor bruise or cut, she is genuinely concerned, and as am I. I'd rather not let someone go off to fight and be hindered because they are not at their best.

I know this is all off topic, and I'm sorry for that, but the flailing bit and the healing bit felt like a stab, as I stated above.
Thank you for your time, and I hope everything turns out for you.

[Lathander]

Let me instill a bit of civility here. The topic of FMs and their responsibilities is a sound one. It would be better if those of you with opinions on the nature and scope of those responsibilities kept your comments focused on suggestions for improvement and identification of what works well already. Jabs regarding others' rp, or focusing soley on one's own character improvement, does not lead toward a better mud experience for everyone. Please keep in mind that these forums are for discussion, even disagreement, that better the mud.

We thank you for your passion and interest in improving FK, but must insist that everyone put aside animosity and keep to the intent of these boards.

[Elke]

Anya: But we love your flailing!

Having read further in this sudden and passionate storm I thought I'd just add my two pennies in. I have never undergone the faithing process - that said, I am aware of a huge level of frustration with several other PC's and players regarding this. I don't think anyone - well, many people - mind the idea of taking several months of solid, interesting RP to get faithed, but when seems to be happening is that you initiate the process and then -nothing happens- for months at a time - which results in morale and fun being at an all time low.

I'm going to throw out a suggestion out here, which is, perhaps one FM just isn't enough? Everyone has RL going on and there are always going to be time-zone issues, so maybe it could be possible to have a couple of 'seconds' or whatever who are authorised at least to elevate someone to at least the 'faithed' stage? That way if you play from time-zone X there should be someone around of the right timezone to deal with you.

I'm also not sure what the criteria are for someone to be declared insufficiently active - the only thing I've seen is:

We will not accept anymore applications for faithing if the current faith has the following:
1. An active Faith Manager that has logged on in the last six months
2. An active Immortal

but I think that maybe 'seconds' might mean that there are a couple of others to shoulder the burden if the head of faith needs to deal with something and go inactive for a bit, to keep the faith ticking over.

Finally, I mention this, because, and I realise it's contentious as I say it, having just one FM leads to the distinct possibility of cliques, favoritism and nespotism? I'm not saying that any of the FM's -are- like that, but that having just one individual in charge of elevation like that is a -very- powerful, potential stranglehold.

I can't imagine how it would work if the Pope personally looked over every single conversion but I would imagine that there would be bottle-necks due to time constraints, just like faiths on FK are having. Obviously there isn't much of a comparison here because FK has a fairly different number of potential faithful than the Pope does, but, I hope I'm managing to convey what I mean.

Please don't all jump on me?

[Lathander]

Nicely said Elke. You made your points while offering constructive criticism directed toward improving the mud as a whole. We are interested in other opinions on this issue as well. Please continue to post in this manner and we can address your concerns through mature discussion.

[Briek]

I believe the subject FM has come up several times in the past and there is one reason why things may not always go as smoothly as some would like or perhaps quickly, that is because they are players with lives and not mega faithing robots 2002 edition etc.

When FM's are having a hard time getting on to play it's up to the others in the faith to RP with the hopefuls, keep them interested and just send a little PM to the FM saying 'hey I have a few hopefuls here who are ready to be quested, mind coming at this and this time?'

If FM's do for some reason have to stay away from FK for any length of time the idea of having several FMs is actually already in place and working very well (I am looking at you, Oghmans! )

Everyone just chill and enjoy the roleplay, use the time to learn more about the faith and therefore become better at it, it's only a little time right?

You don't need and FM's permission to do everything, organise gatherings, competitions, balls, ceremonies or whatever! get other faith members involved including hopefuls and then maybe they won't feel so 'left out' once again also learning more about the faith you are in over -time- will help you to make these roleplays all the better!

I can't think of much else the write so I am going to stop

Have FUN everyone!

[Mele]

The grass is always greener. As a faith manager for years, let me point out things from this lawn.

Assuming favoritism is being given can sometimes be a very nasty and hurtful thing. Often a hopeful is a brand new character, a new dream being made. It is very unlikely the faith manager has any clue who the player is. To call them choosing favorites is extremely unfair. Regardless of beliefs, they do not know everything.

No, faith managers do not log their faith managers in all the time. Some of them log once a week, some of them log less. What you might not know is, I'd be willing to bet that like myself a lot of faith managers who choose not to log that specific character in are checking that faith list often even if they are not playing the character. (Personally, I check mine once a week. When I have a hopeful on a task, I check it every day. Make sure you use the commands of questcomplete, faith apply and so on.) Honestly, you take a lot of stones when you're a faith manager and it's very easy to get burned from that quickly. Point in case, this thread. ;) (I know it's not to hurt anyone specifically but when you're working hard and people are never pleased it does a bit for your self esteem as a faith manager and nothing good.)

No, hopefuls do not make it easy. I can only speak as myself, so I will use myself for example. I do not chase down hopefuls. What I do is if I have one, and if I'm inclined(I used inclined lightly here as rarely do I not log in for a hopeful. But I use it to point out that no hopeful is owed anything. No hopeful puts their name on a list and suddenly owns a faith managers playtime. No player ever owes any other player their playtime or attention. Period.) for the role play right then I log in and sit either in a common gathering place or a well known temple that is lowbie accessible. What is very, very frustrating for me personally is when players get involved in a romantic role play as a hopeful it is incredibly rare they will deviate from that to go find and speak with a faith manager logged in. Lunette has been a faith manager since 2003, I have personally seen this many, many times. That being the most common and most frustrating for me, there's quests and trades and leveling that people won't give up to find their faith manager, also. Mind you here, I don't mean every hopeful and by no means am I pointing fingers here. (I've actually had really great hopefuls lately, and not had any problems.)

What I'm saying is, it's easy to look at a situation and say "Sally has been waiting for a month now for a faith quest because Fred doesn't like her." but even if Sally is your best friend, you don't know where she is or what she is doing all the time. You don't know if she is making the effort to meet her faith manager, and you can't know if the faith manager has made the effort for her either understandably. But it's very presumptuous and unfair to claim people play favorites of a situation you can only know what you're told because you are not directly involved.

I always say this, always. People need to worry about their own characters and their own faithing. If you go to your faith manager and you're told the knowledge you're sharing is not enough, the effort you're giving is not enough take it in stride. These characters manage a faith. That's a pretty deep love for it's dogma. Kill them with kindness. You go out and do some research on the internet and find things and come right back and nail them with even more. Make the effort, and do it with a smile. What can any faith manager say then?

That said I just want to point out: Faith managers are not perfect either. They make mistakes, they get frustrated and they don't always act perfect. No one does.

I do know and agree with a need for more faith managers. Just because a person makes a priest of a faith isn't an automatic past to FM. In fact it's a bit disheartening seeing players who only make characters in faith managerless faiths. It's a common view. Finding a faith manager who knows about the god and plays the knowledge well isn't something you can pull from a hat.

Balek said:
I know that the imm team is aware of the fact that some faiths don't have an active FM or an active enough FM. I can assure you that there are steps being taken to deal with that, but these things take time.

I know I've noticed the first rush of success from this. How could no one notice the new Mystran faithful? I also know at least three other faiths have gotten one person faithed into them with a lack of faith managers. Set your titles. Be patient. There's a lot of hopefuls to clean up, but clearly with the results seen in game all ready it's a work in progress.

[Leveran]

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[Isaldur]

Market Square is crowded. In -my- mind at least. In addition to the PCs and NPC(s) that can be seen, I tend to imagine (depending on the time of day) a certain throng of people meandering about, looking at stalls, things like that. So to have a character stop their conversation and suddenly focus on me? That doesn't seem 'realistic' to me, yannow?

Not disputing how you feel because I am of like mind when it comes to the bustling throngs of merchants and peasants.. but heavily armed and armored adventurers (Or those of them that tend to fly everywhere) tend to stick out like a sore thumb compared to regular civilians. Not to mention the glance option does not give you as much information as wandering gaze or even a glance would in real life, thus the heavy use of look. If someone is staring at you they will probably use the stare social, or smote it, or use the look command on you multiple times in a small period of time.

Now to add to the faith managers discussion:

Many faiths tend to have multiple faith managers who while varying in degrees of rank RPwise, perform the exact same capabilities code-wise. My Faith Manager was one of three until inactivity dropped it to just two of us on the faith list. Some faiths try to avoid the "single point of failure" syndrome but like in life nothing perfect or proof against having problems.

I hope that clarifies that there is at least one answer to Elke's concern about strangleholds, or as they call them at my workplace "single points of failure".

[Leveran]

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[Gwain]

Its interesting to note that pregnancy has nothing to do with faithing at all its part of the application process and monitored on a basis of several rl months by the imms. Otherwise its a completely character driven rp that relies on coded items that enforce an rp. Faithing is monitored by faith managers and imms alike to make sure a character is ready to be faithed or understand the concept of a faith and is not simply out of items or favour. In the most sense, pregnancy rp is completely different from faith rp, its not an epidemic either, on average there are around 7-10 player characters that are pregnant. That's out of the twenty-thirty averaged on a day. What you might be experiencing is one or two pregnant players in the same place for an extended period of time.

[Mele]

Nothing I said was directed at, against or to anyone. (In fact, Leveran, I wasn't at all thinking of you or your characters in the spot you quoted me on.)

I assumed absolutely nothing was directed at me, my faithing process is rather quick. Just because someone replies doesn't mean they've taken a personal offense. ;)

I am merely standing on the other side of the lawn saying the grass is not greener for the sake of hopefully setting some misconceptions straight.

On a lighter note, I'll have you know I faithed three faithful twenty minutes after giving birth. I have never, ever seen a faith manager leave a faithful waiting so they can incline in romantic role play. But of course it's possible. I am only saying it is the most common reason a faith manager spends hours waiting to catch a hopeful.

[Enig]

Without trying to sound pompous or arrogant I really think this thread needs to be, I don't know, streamlined if we want it to actually produce something worthwhile. Leveran, and etc., without taking any stance on the issues of favourtism, the relative quality of different types of RP, and etc., I just don't think discussing all of these things in this hodge-podge format is going to get us anywhere. I think it'd be better served if you broke those other subjects off into threads of their own (well, truthfully I don't think there's any point in discussing something like favourtism in generalities at all, but that's neither here nor there).

In terms of the responsibilities of faith managers I will say that, as someone who hasn't ever been in that position, it seems pretty demanding. Just saying 'promote more FMs' seems to be sort of an off the cuff, easy solution that'd be nonetheless impractical to put into action across the board. Even if we only had two well-RPed FMs per coded faith, a quick count with a help file reveals that we'd need sixty-four characters for this, and based on the size of the playerbase I just don't think it's reasonable to expect to find that many well-informed people who have enough free time and motivation for the job.

All that said I don't think that the issue is quite as big as it's been made out to be. I've seen the mentality before, from other people, that certain characters are nothing without faiths, or that clerics without a god are weak and impotent, but I think it's somewhat misguided. Honestly, faith, like any other single aspect of a character, isn't the whole of who they are, or it shouldn't be. Certainly being a member of a faith ICly can provide a lot of opportunities for roleplaying and I suppose there are certain equipment-based perks, or in the case of clerics, half their spell list, but treating it like the holy grail of the MUD seems to be taking it a little too far. I do remember what it's like to be unfaithed, and I also remember what it's like to be an unguilded wizard with only access to 1st level spells, and I personally enjoyed every moment of the RP I had then, as much as the RP that I have now; it didn't magically get more interesting just because my character can cast stone skin and fling around lightning bolts.

I suppose what I'm trying to say in all of that is, if you aren't enjoying the RP that you're able to experience with an unfaithed character I really have a hard time seeing how being faithed is going to magically fix that. If anyone finds themself in a situation where they're thinking 'Well, if I could do this or had this piece of gear, I might be having some fun...', I really think it's time to re-examine your choice of character and maybe see if there isn't something rather more fundamental about their situation that's preventing you from enjoying yourself.

[Aveline]

However, there -are- examples on here of people that -do- openly share who their other characters are, and even use it to their advantage.

Just a quick thought about this. I personally don't really want to know who everyone else's alts are. I'd just rather not. But sometimes it is a necessary evil. I really used to hate other people knowing my own alts, and still would rather avoid it...but, I know I have a few characters that are needed for certain situations. Faithing being one of those. I think that if someone needs one of my characters for an important reason, they shouldn't have to spend a week trying to figure out a way to contact me when they can just send me an otell in game and ask if they can have some of my time. Knowing who other people's alts are can be abused in some situations, but I don't think it is always a bad thing. And that being said, if anyone ever needs me for something and I'm not on the character you need... Don't be at all afraid to shoot me an otell no matter what character I'm on. At the very worst I might tell you that I'm involved in an rp and can't switch, but I'd make plans to meet up with you another time.

[Elke]

Nicely said Elke. You made your points while offering constructive criticism directed toward improving the mud as a whole. We are interested in other opinions on this issue as well. Please continue to post in this manner and we can address your concerns through mature discussion.

Yay! Thank you!

I hope that clarifies that there is at least one answer to Elke's concern about strangleholds, or as they call them at my workplace "single points of failure".

Thanks, I didn't know that. It makes sense! I think I was assuming that a lot of the problem was caused by that, which it clearly isn't, at least in some faiths.

In terms of the responsibilities of faith managers I will say that, as someone who hasn't ever been in that position, it seems pretty demanding. Just saying 'promote more FMs' seems to be sort of an off the cuff, easy solution that'd be nonetheless impractical to put into action across the board. Even if we only had two well-RPed FMs per coded faith, a quick count with a help file reveals that we'd need sixty-four characters for this, and based on the size of the playerbase I just don't think it's reasonable to expect to find that many well-informed people who have enough free time and motivation for the job.

That also makes a lot of sense of the issue. Thank you!

[Leveran]

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[Horace]

Leveran, I agree with you (except about the pregnancy - I couldn't give a rip either way).

Unfortunately the only solution (by my definition of solution), from an OOC stand point, is to create a character with the intention of joining a certain faith that you know to have an active FM and also is an FM that believes like yourself (and myself) that 1 month is a long time. 1 month is a third of the summer. The difficulty then becomes creating a character that suits or compliments the faith you'll need to pursue.

By doing this you perform two positives, in my eyes. You reward a faith with a faith manager with the same ideals we hold on the issue, aiding that faith IC and OOC. And second, you aren't joining a faith where you're going to be pissed at a player who your pc is reliant on...which assuredly will piss them off as well.

Cut your losses, do some asking around out of character, and find a faith that suits your PC in character and suits yourself out of character. I've done it plenty - there is nothing wrong with it. An IC excuse of "i'm too valuable to be treated like this - I'll take my patronage elsewhere" is perfectly reasonable - just don't do it once you're already a full member, there is a house rule of changing faiths being significantly turbulent.

Play for you, don't play for your character. Don't wear RP like handcuffs. You will get out of FK what you make of it - and I promise you that you'll wind up throwing your hands up in the air and walking away if you try to force something like this. FM's are all players, all players are different, player's all get different perspectives on the importance of one's religion in the setting of Forgotten Realms/Forgotten Kingdoms.

The frustrating part, from your perspective, is that many of the FM's are priests - and for god's sake the #1 purpose of a priest is to spread the faith...yet it seems so impossible to get the ball rolling without a significant stall. If you find an FM or high ranking priest actively trying to convert you (their job) then you know you've found a player who has beliefs that line up with your own. If you have to, create a new character to make it work. But don't ever wait, and be miserable, just because an FM says it took them 10000000 hours before /they/ got faithed. To myself, and I assume yourself, the length of time for a roleplay rarely equates to how successfully I feel it was done or how much value I place upon it. Often times long faith roleplays are a relief to get over and you never want to go through something like that again so your character can get on with their life.

Bottom line, reward players who are like minded as yourself. Don't try to force it. Most FM's are old dogs, and for the better or worse of your playing viewpoint, they aren't learning new tricks Adapt to the paradigm set before you.

[Leveran]

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[Mouat]

Can we all meet in the outside of Waterdeep and make a fire and huddle together and sing Kum Bah Ya while roasting marshmellows.

Rynn wants first shot at being beside Melian and Faria

[Enig]

Think about those numbers a second Gwain. That's 33% of the population. You don't think that's a pretty high number? And please, really, stop repeating yourself. It's belittling to yourself as well as the rest of us. I know that pregnancy isn't directly related to faith issues. The point lies elsewhere. You seem to have a personal grudge against me since the incident with your little buddy Hrosskell, so I'd really ask you to just step off my case. You have treated me poorly both ICly and OOCly since that occurance. Please stop.

You might know that pregnancy RP isn't related to faith issues, but from the direction of your own posts you sure aren't demonstrating that very well. I think it's safe to say that if you hadn't brought up the so-called 'pregnancy epidemic' issue you wouldn't have gotten a response about it.