Faith Leaders

[Gwain]

My post was more to point out that pregnancy apps and rp is something completely different then faith administration. I provided an example of what faith leaders might expect from potential followers in general. It was a summary of my opinion in a way that goes along with the general spirit of this forum topic.

As for grudges, this is a forum for ooc discussion of elements within the game. My out of character opinion does not reflect on my character's roleplay since I am not my character, I am simply someone that follows an rp line icly. I would ask that information be taken into account to avoid pointless and offensive attacks in the forums. This is a place to assist and educate fellow players. It is not a place to berate or antagonize over issue in an imaginary game world that holds little or none weight in the real world.

Having explained my previous post, I'd further elaborate on faith managers since it is the main concern of this forum posting:

In my experience having two to three faith managers for one faith often assists greatly in faithing because it allows for faith managers to divide a workload or create preferences for faithing, such as one leader handling one kind of faithful and the other the other kind. The issue with this is having a faith with enough experienced and well roleplayed characters to manage having more than one fm. The lesser issue is of course demand for faithing. I much prefer the personal touch over a mechanical system, because the experience is more genuine if you have to work at it to join. I do think that after a certain point it is acceptable to ask for imm assistance through application or prayers if nothing else works. However, if there is an active fm in place then I recommend certainly working with them to be faithed at their pace, part of anything in the mud is the ability to be patient, courteous ooc and understand that it is a volunteer enviroment constantly changing and adapting for the better. I think the majority of ideas expressed here have been constructive and will probably only aid the current system in the immediate future.

[Lathlain]

What you need to remember is that the physical faithing of a character is not a simple process - it's the devotion of that character to their god. In reality most church-goers for example would be simple laymen, never dreaming of receiving a symbol of faith. For an FK character, the faithing process is effectively an ordaining - a naming of them as not only a follower, but a representitive of their faith. If that doesn't merit some scrutinising and some IC lectures, I don't know what does! It's certainly nothing that should occur over-night.

I'm going to be blunt here. If you'd stuck it out with your hopeful of Corellon, you'd likely have made it in with relative ease. You seem to have a good handle on the concept, and a suitable roleplay angle to approach it from. The faithing may not have been as hasty as you'd like, but that's down to the person doing the faithing. You've raised this openly now however in a less than savoury manner, and despite the IC/OOC boundaries, I'd feel VERY awkward interacting with you now if I were the player of Larethiel. You really need to realise that beyond being a simple game, FK is a community of roleplayers - people who will develop OOC opinions and impressions of you depending on your behaviour here.

Ultimately, make the character you wish to make. If there's no faith manager, that's fine! Make an application and something will be sorted out. If there's in inactive faith manager, the same applies. If it's an uncoded deity, oh look - same again! As for the current faith managers, yes, you can expect to have to do some cozying up to them. No it's not an ideal system (see previous comments about the pope, etc), but these are high ranking, respected members of the faith here, and I promise they didn't get where they are by being incompetant and poorly informed! Most of them are more than happy to discuss matters with you and settle religious disagreements rather than simply blank you.

You don't have to limit your scope dependant on which faiths are most active and which have the best domain spells, and you certainly don't have to feel constrained by missing faith leaders. The sooner you realise that the system isn't out to thwart you, and is more than happy to help you achieve the concept you want to achieve, the better.

[Mele]

For the record here, Gwain's intentions were far more good natured than what it is they've been conceived as.

Recently there was a new manager of pregnancies set, and that person has made a lot of changes. His concern to stand up for the pregnancy role play and the poor shadow it seems to have gotten in this thread was to keep this new manager in high spirits about their work.

[Hrosskell]

1) The ability and burden to faith hopefuls is a burden that should not fall on the FM alone.
A) There are tiers of peers open to your characters in your faith: those you can work with, go to advice, ask for spiritual help,
and they should be utilized. Faith, like other situations, should not be built upon the ideas of one alone.
B) FMs are, as has been mentioned very many times, people. More so than people, they are characters. They have methods
of doing things, tempers, feelings, etc. They are not cardboard cut-out characters that serve only to do things the way the hopefuls want or the way other FMs do it. That is the exact opposite of what they are.
2) Well-populated faiths have shown that the faithing process, even if lengthy, can be made enjoyable and diversified.
A)Case in point, the Mystran faith. I don't know the people who helped my Mystran get along outside of the game.
I don't know if they're friends, or if they organized the process the way they did out of character, or if it was
a cunning and fun creation that developed in-character.
B) No matter what, it was good. However, not all faiths have such a good infrastructure. Some are populated
by a handful of people who rarely see eachother in-game or out-of-game. They may also be less popular than larger
faiths, thus offering their faith managers fewer experiences in faithing. Just because someone is an FM doesn't mean
they're not necessarily new to the job. This, I think, will be the case before long, as many new players step up to
responsibilities previously unshouldered or fallen into disrepair.
3) That being said, I believe that if any person wants to get along here, then they will work with eachother to develop
healthy, fun roleplays, especially in the department of faith. Rivals, mentors, apprentices, bosom buddies, the possibilities
are endless for the type of roleplays that can happen--if the parties involved are willing to look beyond themselves for the
sake of roleplay.
A) I'm not asking anyone to step into an uncomfortable situation. However, if you look at the game from the outside, and
ask yourself how characters would act, and not ourselves, and follow those courses of action, I think everyone can have a good time.
B) At any point, if you do not enjoy a roleplay, it is possible to do the following: walk in any direction available, and log out. If the source of the roleplay, i.e. another character, has blatantly broken rules of logic and/or code, then I suggest filing a complaint. If this is done flippantly, do not expect people to want to RP with you again.


The formal and (hopefully) helpful part of this post being over, I'd like to say something else. I do not speak on behalf of the imm team, the collective FMs, the veterans, the newer players, or those inbetween. I speak for myself. This forum has never tolerated trolling, flaming, or other attacks. Since you, Leveran, seem to be able to get away with it with no apparent reproach, I'll take a moment and address the tail of this post to you.

It isn't necessary to attack people to prove a point. You're making things harder on yourself, by far. It seems to me that you haven't been pleased by many people on this MUD, or at least that you've been displeased by a few. That does not give you the right to slander them, call them out in a blatant public fashion, or make demands of reparation. If you just cool your jets, let things calm down, and try to reason with people without being insulting or taking a "higher ground", then I am certain you could do great things for this MUD. You're a smart person, you've got a keen eye for good roleplay, and you obviously understand how things work.
You need only polish your people skills, and you'll find many doors open to you.

(Edited to try and format.)

[Horace]

Leveran

You're clearly logical and confident enough to state the problems with the system, and that enough will get an honest answer from me even if it makes the game I love look a little worse. I greatly dislike cookie cutter answers that don't really explain to you what is going on, often it will feel like you're being spoken to as a child - it's just the way conversation involving the game has evolved into, it's not intended to feel that way, most the players have sound intentions.

The best way to get faithed, in any faith, is to prove yourself as an established player and an asset to the game. FM's want characters from player's who they trust to represent their faith appropriately and are known to be able to create interesting and vibrant PC's (and who can blame them?). It's why the clique perception exists, because it's true. You just have to realize it's hard to trust players you don't know with investing hours into RP with them, when you always have that option of playing with someone you do know and is a sure thing to be a great time.

Not a real bright picture I'm painting, but I promise you becoming an established player makes the game a lot more fun than always feeling like an outsider just trying to get to the show - and there are quite a few players I personally know who will go out of their way to help you get involved. It will happen, it's almost like looking for character's who are looking for you...you'll know the ones who genuinely want to help you out when you meet them. The vast majority of the players are great people out of character, but very few all have the same viewpoint on what is important in the game. Find those who see the game as you do, and stick with 'em.

My advice to enjoy the game, is to play your character with the intention of helping other's enjoy the game. Other player's recognize it and respond to it. It's the golden rule of gaming...but "play with others as you'd like to be played with" doesn't really sound as good.

[Leveran]

.

[Mele]

Parents are "retired" or "on sabbatical" from adventuring as ruled by the role play which requires an app and informs the players of such. They are not adventurers during the time of their pregnancies. Many great adventurers have retired to start a family.

"What I -am- seeing is about 20 pregnant female characters. That's rediculous. Frankly, and I'm sorry to say it, but I think adding that was a mistake." is much deeper than an opinion. It's saying something in a manner which is blatantly angry, even furious. It's hurtful to the people who enjoy the role play, who are part in a current role play like such and the people who work to make such role plays possible. It's more than an opinion it's a direct flame.

It's wonderful if you never dream for YOUR characters to become fathers. To experience more life than dragons and guilds and faiths. That's perfectly rational and fair. Other people, however, would like more things for their characters. Role play is not secluded to adventurers by any means at all.

It's beautiful to have an opinion. It's wonderful to state it. But when you're stating it in an impatient, quickly frothed manner the people who it directly affects will become offended, hurt or angry and will respond to it. Becoming irritated that you made waves and they're coming back to you is not making lighter of any bit of any situation. Nor is it attracting positive attention.

If people want to be pregnant, who cares? I know for a fact not a single pregnant woman has stopped anyone from joining a guild or a faith. Nunya, worry about you, leave other people be to their own role play stupid, smart, amazing or not. They can't touch you if you don't put yourself there. I don't care if it's 90% of the mud or 7%. It's not anyone's business but the players.

[Enig]

Once again, there -was- a point to bringing it up related to the thread, and if people would bother to actually read everything I'm saying instead of getting strung up about just what they're seeing then maybe that point would have come across.

The point is, the MUD has people getting knocked up for 'RP' purposes left and right, but you can't find a faith leader to save your life sometimes. I think that 30% of a population (Especially a population that is dominated by males) is excessive. It's flat out a case of monkey see monkey do. The point is, that the focus of the game, in my opinion, shouldn't be domesticality. You're heroes. Adventurers. Not babysitters and parents. I'm not saying the two have to be mutually exclusive, I'm just saying there needs to be limiting factors, otherwise it's detracting from the rest of the game. IN MY OPINION.

I'm afraid you're simply mistaken as to the percentage of pregnant PCs. Despite capping out at around 30-33 people at peak hours on most days, there are considerably more active PCs currently playing the game and it strikes me that pulling out a statement like that, saying that 30% of the population is composed of pregnant women, is coming at this from a purely sensationalist angle, rather than a truly thoughtful one.

As much as you have complete control over how you want your character to grow the same is true of the people around you and telling them that they shouldn't be RPing the way they want to because it's inconvenient to you is not an opinion that'll make you a lot of friends. If you can't respect that some people's idea of fun is different from yours I'm afraid you'll probably have a very hard time getting people to want to play with you, and that's kind of sad. Ultimately, though, your actions will only hurt your chances of having fun, and I for one don't intend on losing any sleep worrying about your loss.

[Briek]

Personally on the note of adventurers and such getting pregnant/starting a family etc I think is fairly resonable, we are perhaps talking about groups or couples who started out adventuring together and have done so for a long time, they see alot of each other, they get together and faster than you can say -there was no effective contraception 500 years ago- they have children. I think if it has been approved by the Imms that these two players are responsible enough to RP out the situation well and adhere by the rules there is no problem, simply saying that there are -too many- pregnant women about is hardly constructive to the process.

Also I believe this topic fast coming off the tracks so I won't be posting on this thread again.

[Skeas]

I'd like to point [uselessly and unproductively] out that the population of Toril is far greater than the player pop of FK and that even if every female character we had was pregnant, we'd still be in huge danger of going extinct (;

tell me, when's the last time you saw a pregnant npc?

[Leveran]

I'd like to point [uselessly and unproductively] out that the population of Toril is far greater than the player pop of FK and that even if every female character we had was pregnant, we'd still be in huge danger of going extinct (;

tell me, when's the last time you saw a pregnant npc?

And I get yelled at for being off topic? <.< Let it go already people. You have your preggo domesticality RP. Enjoy it. Just don't expect me to get involved in it or give any respect to a so called adventurer that would be so narrow minded as to forget that they have enemies and think it's a good idea to raise a family.

[Kelemvor]

Since the change of Administration some years back, we have always made a point of not locking threads and allowing discussions to continue unabated so that everyone is able to have their say in a fair and frank manner.

Unfortunately, this lack of direct intervention is sometimes mistaken for consent to attack or belittle other players.

Please consider the tone and intent of your post before posting or we will do it for you - by setting your posts so that they require approval before other players see them

[Lathander]

Just tagging on Kelemvor here. His warning is the second one. Mine, in game and out, was the first. Strike two.

[Leveran]

I'm not attempting to belittle or degrade anyone else. I'm just voicing my opinion that A) the comment was off topic, which I have been ragged on for, even though it's -my- thread. 2) the pregnancy 'RP' has taken over a significant portion of the MUD. Everywhere I turn I see it. I just perosnally disagree that having it here is a good idea, but, it's not my MUD, so at this point I have resigned that other people are going to do it. Just don't expect me to RP with your pregnant character, or your child. I'll just walk away. And, if I ever make an evil character, you'd better believe that your kids are fair game.

[Horace]

you'd better believe that your kids are fair game.

Except they aren't. Purposely ruining someone's fun to appease a malicious desire of your own should (and will) get you banned. Which I'm sure you've provided plenty of precedent for.

[Leveran]

you'd better believe that your kids are fair game.

Except they aren't. Purposely ruining someone's fun to appease a malicious desire of your own should (and will) get you banned. Which I'm sure you've provided plenty of precedent for.

Actually, it's more of an IC thing. If I'm playing an evil character, and we encounter each other, and I don't like how it goes, but I find out you have a kid.. it would be -NOT- Ic of me to target that kid.

[Horace]

I'd argue it would be. You just spent an entire post speaking about how you'd avoid the situation, and how much you hate the idea people want to play it...unless of course you were in a situation where you could in characterly ruin that fun, in which case you'd do it in a snap because you hate the idea anyone wants to play that.

You sorta yapped your way into a corner with it. If I were you I'd never do anything IC with it at all in even a slightly negative light - if I was the player on the receiving end I'd point to this thread.

Backwards rationalization for IC acts to fulfill an OOC desire is the worst form of metagaming.

[Elke]

You have your preggo domesticality RP. Enjoy it. Just don't expect me to get involved in it or give any respect to a so called adventurer that would be so narrow minded as to forget that they have enemies and think it's a good idea to raise a family.

Look. Some people enjoy reading fantasy stories about action! and adventure! And that's good. Some people enjoy stories about romance! and horror! and that's also good. Of course adventurers are going to raise families, they're still people. Just because you may forego the romance section in your local bookstore doesn't mean everyone else does.

The specifics of the setting are pseudo-medievalism (excuse me whilst I add in a slight aside of 'yay for costume drama!' *ahem*) and the existence of magic and monsters. Within that setting there is and should be scape for a whole lot of of subsets of the fantasy genre. Including the romance side. And a lot if not many fantasy books include and deal with pregnancy and children.

Two child mobs I have heard of IC -have- been kidnapped and attempted-kidnapped respectively. I can't think of any way in which child mobs are a detriment to the game and a great deal of ways in which they actively enhance the game. It's fairly entertaining to watch people reassess and form adult-child interrelationships with someone elses child mob and also interesting to watch the different methods of child-rearing different characters have.

As such, there is definitely scope for romance! and horror! in this game, as long as it's PG-13

[Leveran]

This will be the absolute last thing I say on this thread, or any other concerning pregnancy, so help me god:

The fact that everyone is so vehement about this subject, which wasn't even the thread's original purpose or title but -has- become its focus only proves to illustrate the point I was making when I brought it up in this thread. It has gone beyond being a facet, and onto being a focus. LET IT GO ALREADY PLEASE!

[Lerytha]

The only thing I will say in response to this, Leveran (sorry, haven't met you in-game, yet! ), is that I am someone who has had a pregnancy RP (still ongoing!). As someone who has devoted almost two years I think, to this RP (with at least six-eight months absent on my part), I think I can say it is different, sometimes frustrating, but extremely fun.

I know you probably didn't intend it this way, but are you honestly saying you won't RP at all with anyone who has a child NPC? I know you've said you won't reply again to this thread, but I hope you will, if only to put my mind to rest. From what I've heard, your character is interesting to RP with, and it'd be a shame not to RP with anyone on this MUD, just because of a choice I made, my own choice, and my own RP.

And if you do create an evil character, you are welcome to try to steal the children. In all honesty, it is all RP. Of course, most people err on the side of not killing the kids, because that's really forcing an RP on people that is extremely traumatic. But a good kidnap RP with opportunity to retrieve the kid has happened before, and is extremely fun.

Also! Most people who apply for pregnancies (there are some exceptions) tend to be the more powerful adventurers at the very peak of their career. I for one would not mess with any of the mothers who have had a child on the MUD. Some of them are the most famous female adventurers on the MUD, and baby or not, could probably still do some damage to a lot of things.

All in all, its a choice of RP. OOCly you may dislike it. But please, don't IC ignore us. We want to RP with people! Just because we have a baby, doesn't mean we shouldn't be allowed to!

I have a sneaking suspicion you didn't mean a probably throwaway comment to receive this much publicity. So I'm sorry if I'm breathing life into a discussion you'd rather was discontinued. But I just wanted to let you know from my own point of view, that I hope you won't start ignoring people on the MUD. It doesn't make it a happy place to RP then, for any of us.

Welcome to the MUD, though! Good to have interesting discussion.

~Ol