Economies

[Taerom]

I am curious to see what the general opinion is regarding the economy system
(that being that the vendors in each city draw their money from a shared pool
of limited size when it comes to buying and selling items to/from them).

Any thoughts?

[Horace]

I think it's silly, and should be much higher than what it is. Many times higher than what it is. But the way it is right now benefits those who are willing to put the time into making that money, which happens to be me, so I'm at an impasse,

In my opinion there shouldn't be such limits. Player run economies are for games with thousands of players, not dozens.

[Hrosskell]

I also agree that there should be no economy cap. I think the way it works now only cripples the mass majority of players, because the routine bank-breakers are always the routine bank-breakers; on the occasion they're not, then someone else has done it just to seize the opportunity. It's a vicious cycle.

That being said, I won't criticize something without offering alternatives. If there was, perhaps, a way to reinvigorate the economy more fully, such as frequent resets (if this could be done just to the economy, not the game) or a PC-to-PC interaction market (such as an auction house, that takes cuts), then perhaps the economy cap wouldn't be such a nuisance.

[Gwain]

Ideas and commentaries based on observations.

First Idea:
Value-based mercantile identification of poorly crafted goods
The problem lies in what is being sold. Rubbish like rusted plate mail for example, it sells for far too much. Its worthless, no one that has it will use it, and those who would use it could not afford it. Yet when you go into a city like Waterdeep, which is a central market hub, you have shoppes that pay top coin for what is basically useless items like crude and rusted armour and weapons. What should happen is that the shop keepers should recognize through the descriptors and quality that what they are about to purchase is worthless and in turn halve the price or not accept it at all. Do this in popular markets and decrease it in places far away from established cities to keep up the demand to travel. Now the only problem is that young adventurers lose out on making coin in sales, well to compensate they could sell the accumulated items abandoned by seasoned adventurers as not worth selling, or trade on a character to character basis.

Second Idea:
Inter city trade zones
Divide trade zones within a city or area into several sectors with random economies that reset at random times depending on events or quests done in the borders. This would dissuade twinkers that rush and disable an economy completely after a copyover or reset by selling items immediately. In essence, they would not know exactly when an economy will be ready and may only be able to sell off a small portion of their junk.

Third Idea:
Player incorporated management
Allow for the expansion of trades to refurbish or improve on poor quality goods by characters in order to create a demand for them to be repurchased. As I said above, no one that could afford it, would purchase a rusty suit of platemail, but they will sell it right away and blow the economy to smithereens. This might allow them to sell almost any armour, crude leather, fur or rusty as refurbished and allow them to turn a profit, while enticing customers to purchase from mobile merchants, refreshing the economy with the current code in place.

Fourth Idea:
Limitation on repetitive sale
First off, raise the economic level significantly, but then attach a log to players selling more than one of the same item if value exceeds five platinum. If a player sells a certain amount, make the merchant refuse to purchase any more of the item in question until the money is made back. This allows for other items of a varying value to be placed in shops and dispersed far more widely than they currently are. Players will be motivated to buy in order to sell and depending on the nature of the purchases will make more coin in the long run and more than likely manage their items and divide their loot with more efficiency.

Fifth Idea
Realistic economic profiles
The banks take a cut of our character's coin every time we deposit. Why not make investment opportunities possible? Take the money in the bank and put it to work in a stock or trading market without it ever leaving the account, by allowing players to earn interest. This would allow the current economy system to remain, but players with money in the bank could invest it in different accounts and trusts (stocks, even) While players who don't use banks could rely on the current economy (loot = coin) to get their money.

A bit about how I do things
During the month-long uptime we experience last month I made major purchases on one of my characters in the highest economic zone, this more than likely restored the economy twice (I cannot confirm such, but it would make sense) In that time random rubbish including crude weapons and armour went on sale and did not leave the store inventory. Some nice things went on sale as well, which resulted in my own purchases. Just after the reset, the economy of the area was completely wiped out. This was thanks to \ the sale of a dozen rubbish items (I won't go into ic detail about where and what, but it was obviously these items that wiped out an entire area economy) This wiped out the economy for the entire area. It will more than likely be this way until an event as a result of a quest or several player purchases balances it out (which may take a bit of time)

What I've drawn from experiences is this:
-No matter how high an economy is, if there is an limit, someone will fill it and crash the economy
-Expensive rubbish though nice to have to sell, is not worth anything in resale so it will sit like stone until a reset.
-Though its easy enough to call it a faceless crime, we are all guilty of it. We have all made the quick sale and bottomed out an economy in the game. Therefore instead of pointing fingers, the answer is that we need to make the ability to do so difficult or impossible, and do it in a way that does not allow for more sale (bigger economies equals larger selling sprees)

[Elke]

Fifth Idea
Realistic economic profiles
The banks take a cut of our character's coin every time we deposit. Why not make investment opportunities possible? Take the money in the bank and put it to work in a stock or trading market without it ever leaving the account, by allowing players to earn interest. This would allow the current economy system to remain, but players with money in the bank could invest it in different accounts and trusts (stocks, even) While players who don't use banks could rely on the current economy (loot = coin) to get their money.

Loans!

Slightly as an aside here, I'm sure that a lot of people might be quite interested in taking out a loan from an older, more powerful character to buy something expensive (big suit of platemail, shop, house etc). The main problem is the lack of security (what does the loaner do if the other player defaults on repayments or worse, runs not only out of town but quits the game forever?) If you could have the security being at least, that the item bought with the loan becomes the property of the person who offered the loan then it might suddenly be a more viable possibility.

I think the point of making sure lots of the same thing aren't sold is a good idea, although I had the impression that was already to some extent the case? (Or at least that selling more than one of the same thing to the same vendor meant a fall in price, which makes sense and encourages you to spread where you sell your loot.) I think that if you have a limit on how much stock of a particular item a merchant is willing to buy that would probably work a lot better.

Maybe there could be a sort of per-item pricing restriction, where a merchant will only buy items of between X and Y value? So that there are higher-end merchants who only deal in high-quality, costly goods and lower-end merchants who just will not be able to afford your suit of platemail?

[Raona]

Something has always puzzled me about the economy system in FK: Where does all the money go?!? Most people spend the most of the coin they earn, rather than bank and hoard it. It seems like it doesn't get back into the economy, though. I think this is because some of the major sinks for coin (churches?) don't economically link with the major sources (merchants willing to buy stuff they'll never resell), but I'm not sure. Anyone more enlightened than I on this count?

[Kelemvor]

For reference

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7317&hilit=economy

It should also be noted that area economies do recover over time, back to their original value.

The problem, as noted above, is that sold items are rarely re-purchased, most sub-areas dont contribute to the main cities and despite all our best efforts there will always be those few who know how/where/what when it comes to emptying the economy.

Do please post any good ideas to the Suggestions box so Mask can consider hard-code solutions.

[Horace]

The problem, as noted above, is that sold items are rarely re-purchased, most sub-areas dont contribute to the main cities and despite all our best efforts there will always be those few who know how/where/what when it comes to emptying the economy.

I find the idea that staff feels they should do all they can to prevent players from trying to make their PC rich, as being the problem. Players shouldn't feel like, or have it suggested to them, that they shouldn't make money. A large aspect of the adventure genre appeal is to have characters who eventually become rich and famous (in whatever way they choose to be).

In my opinion the nose has been cut to spite the face, and now the only way anyone can become rich at all, within the rules of the game, is through non adventuring means (read: boring). You literally can't become rich without either picking up everything you find and traveling all over the world to sell it, or you have to spend hundreds of hours crafting weapons and then traveling all over the world to sell it.

The majority of level 45+ pc's can barely afford components....the low level pc's are effectively crippled because of it. And the solution is easy. It's easy to apply, and it's easy to take off.

Why not just try a week with no cap - set the value to it's max integer and see if the sky falls. If it does, whoopsie, and reset it.

No harm no foul.

The real value in FK, and in DnD as a whole, is in magical items. If everyone could afford components, and everyone could afford to buy mundane armor, then people wouldn't be selling great artifacts for 15 platinum. I have plenty of items I wouldn't have my PC sell for 50,000 platinum - and that's because the coin means nothing. There is no appreciable difference between 200 platinum and 1,000,000.

Let the things you get through adventure be the real riches of the game.

[Horace]

I just wanted to add this separate point:

PC's aren't the economy. DnD isn't about macroeconomics and the balance of world wide financial institutions. Everything our PCs sell shouldn't be viewed as an "economy drain" simply because other players have no reason to purchase the sold good. And it shouldn't be viewed as borderline cheating for selling stuff other PC's would never want to buy.

People often think while playing "I shouldn't sell this item, it will cause the ruin of Waterdeep for months". It's absurd. Adventurers spend fortunes in minutes, and live lifetimes in moments. They blow all their coin on crap or give it all away to churches, all because they know they'll have just as much after their next...or they'll be dead and they won't need it anyhow.

If there is some desire for an economy simulation type game, give the Lords of Waterdeep that storyline to play with. But forcing all players to take on some sort of mantle of trust to not "ruin" an economy, isn't desirable for players or staff.

[Arnof]

I agree with Horace. I think pulling the caps for a week to test the waters is a solid plan and should give some insight into whether the caps really benefit or hinder us as players. It's one week, we're not going to topple the game, so there's no damage.

B

[Kelemvor]

For the record.. I have no problem at all with players earning coin. It is, as you say, the underpin for most adventuring and in my days as a mortal I worked hard to raise several thousand platinum to buy a dwelling.

However, I feel it's a little harsh to take my comments and use them to intimate that staff wish players not to earn coin. What I was bemoaning was the lack of connectivity between areas and the fact that some players felt no compunction about emptying the piggy bank when half-emptying it would be sufficient for their purposes.

Now, the suggestion you propose is entirely valid and would remove all of the example problems I listed. If we try it and there are no new problems as a result I will happily credit you as the fiscal saviour of FK.

Post it to Game Suggestions for further player discussion and it can then be passed on to Mask and Garl.

Meantime... I added a number of saleable items to the inventories of various well-used merchants in Waterdeep. We'll see how that goes as a possible means of floating the market

[Kelemvor]

I've placed a crate in the Auction House of Waterdeep market and dropped some mundane components and sundries in it.

Call this a dry run for something we could add to other cities.

Take what you can use from the crate and drop in what you think others might have a use for. It's a little bit OOC, but it might help with things like components for wizards.

Try to avoid using it to offload trash items or unsellable junk and be aware that if the MUD reboots it will go poof.

[Taerom]

Simply put, it feels to me as though every good source of gold for high level characters that involves simple killing of mobs has been systematically nerfed to the ground. If anyone feels as though the staff doesn't want them to earn coin, this is likely why. I could write you a list of instances where this has happened, but I don't want to point fingers. I truthfully feel that these past changes have been detrimental to the game as a whole. All I want is to be able to farm gold and not have others try to make me feel like I'm ruining the game because I'm willing to spend the time to make gold and improve my character, while others would rather spend the vast majority of their time roleplaying.

[Elke]

Honestly, one part of the problem is that the people who farm best and quickest ruin it for other players. If you go to a merchant in Waterdeep to find that they are carrying a huge number of, say, crude leather armors, it is immensely annoying because everyone knows that they won't actually budge and that you can't sell anything on yourself. And it tends to be higher level, more powerful players found doing this, as far as I've noticed, simply because they tend to have the knowledge and resources to get around and do so.

In my opinion the nose has been cut to spite the face, and now the only way anyone can become rich at all, within the rules of the game, is through non adventuring means (read: boring). You literally can't become rich without either picking up everything you find and traveling all over the world to sell it, or you have to spend hundreds of hours crafting weapons and then traveling all over the world to sell it.

I can't disagree with any of this, but, it occurs to me that perhaps a reasonable part of the problem is to do with the attitude that to make coin one must sell loot. Perhaps, instead of gathering large piles of crude leather armor and selling it all off, it might be plausible to simply have the mobs carrying and dropping more coin? Which would lead to more currency in circulation without having the same level of limitation once a certain number of players have dropped their goods on those merchants?

My other suggestion would be to make the profits possible on trading a bit higher. Most PC's - at least the ones Elke has met - tend to have the very strong opinion that trading just isn't worth it for the effort that has to be made hauling and so on. I haven't the information to hand but as I recall the best trades earn up to four gold per transaction, but then they weigh so much that without steely determination you probably would be better off using that time going down a bandit camp and gathering up scalps and armor to sell.

Not to mention that the rewards rp-wise may often be better farming than flying about trading, because with trading there is no similar factor that a companion will help the group earn more (although having a strong pair of arms and legs to carry for you might be useful, the fact is that 'trading together' just means there is less of whatever trade good available) and so whilst one might go farming with an adventuring group, the merchant guild trading as it stands could and can end up more lonely and grind-like than farming would.

Possibly this could all be solved by having a quest about which rewards the player with a Bag of Holding?

[Gwain]

Personally, I've amassed a fortune on several of my pc's without farming or looting. By doing the following:

-Teaching - I charge a fair amount for teaching rp's
-Selling items at farther locals in a widespread fashion (ie if I have fifteen bows, I will not sell fifteen bows to the same merchant in the same city, I'll look around for top prices elsewhere)
-Using trades like mining and smelting to facilitate the needs of other players while making a tidy profit
-Advertised my services and actively offered them in trades both monetary and otherwise.
-Used ingame systems and quests that allow player characters to earn a steady stream of coin over an extended period.
-Used means like precision forges and travel to compensate for components whenever possible to save coin that would otherwise be spent on said components.
-Actively traded favours and services over coins whenever possible to keep active and learn things.

For me, the game is an exercise in courtesy. Its not about feeling bad about doing something because it might be contrary to my rp or to a mindset, its about being patient, careful and doing things that allow me a piece of mind oocly and icly. Its not simply about looting and training, those are nice, but its about interaction, time and effort towards fortune. Sometimes that takes longer, but it pays of for long term players. Those that spend all their time treating things like a dungeon crawl, well they can do that true, but the game is not a single player game. Its a game in itself to find a formula for longevity. And I think that taking the time to treat the economy like a viable creation, not an item dump is a good step. Then, taking advantage of programmed ingame services, next, building up ic relationships and clients through trade and finally using high character level skills to teach young players for coin. Follow this and you will make coin and interact. Though of course it takes time, patience and a good sense of roleplay.

[Elke]

All of these make perfect sense, but it can be quite hard for the starting player to be able to offer many of these.

[Zorinar]

I believe that the economy on the mud is somewhat broken, and I have an idea that I would like to pass around here before I post it on the suggestions board. First, accumulating large amounts of money for a big purchase is something I think everyone has had to deal with. Whether it be expensive armor, weapons, spells or components. In particular, Wizards need to keep making large amounts of coin to keep up with their component costs. There are only a few ways to make a lot of coin, the most effective way is by killing strong mobs and selling their loot. Only certain mobs drop decent loot and almost all mobs drop only a tease worth of coins. In my case, that is the only way to really make a cart load of coin that will then be completely spent all at once on components or spells. Trading has proved to be largely unprofitable for me, as well as selling services since my character hasn't been able to learn trades. When that one person gets the timing right and is able to sell their loot from a long day of coin farming, they usually deplete the economy is almost every area. I always know just by looking at what the merchants sell if I will be able to even think about making money that day. No money sometimes means no adventuring for me. I think this is where the system gets broke. The outflow of money is based on zone caps that can be depleted from one person. There was another mud I played on that solved this problem in the following two ways:

First, there was an endless supply of money output through services offered by mobs. Things like, bring me drops from this mob and I will give you x coin for it, or bring me corpses of x mob and I will pay for it. Very much like the guards give gold for bandit scalps, but the supply of the mobs to be killed was never depleted so lots of people could do it at once. The payout wasn't enormous but it was constant and good enough that people could take a day of playing to build enough coin for the purchases they needed. Selling loot wasn't really the main way to make coin. This would keep the outflow of money limitless but you still need to work for it and the economy would never break.

Secondly, and this is just a personal idea, why not drastically reduce the availability and cost of components but require a preparation stage to the more powerful ones. Wizards having to prepare their components shouldn't be costly, but a bit time consuming. Don't priests bless their water vials to make blessed water that is used in healing prayers, for example? I would assume Wizards are the main culprits in coin farming, just out of necessity. This idea might actually reverse that trend. Just an idea anyway.

Take care.

Z

[Takket]

Something I keep seeing come up here is the comment that wizards need tons of coin for components. As a long time wizard and spell-caster player, I can tell you this isn't true. The way things are now, you can keep a good stock of components without having to spend hardly anything (there are a few components you still have to buy, but those are in a vast minority now). Now, I will grant you that the cheap way is not the easy way. You'll have to kill some things for some components, complete quests for others and simply just hunt around for others still. But it's doable and it's doable by low level characters.

Why do I bring this up? Well, because it illustrates a major way to make money and that's to avoid spending it in the first place. I understand that buying things in shops is more convenient than having to go hunt for components. However, if you know where to look, or ask those who do, hunting for components is usually a LOT easier than grinding for cash and, in some cases, you get both at once. Saving on components is one example. There are a lot of other ways to save on coin like shopping around. There are a lot of incidences I have found where by shopping around, I have found the exact same thing I was looking for, but for much cheaper. It just required a little effort on my part to track it down, but to me it was worth it because I got what I wanted while (comparatively) making money. This applies to PC's as well. More specifically, PC created items or services. Some PCs do charge more than others. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, but from a buyer's perspective, buying the item/service you need from the first person you come across without looking at other prices isn't always the cheapest. Furthermore, if people start having to compete prices with one another, the costs of things WILL come come down which further alleviates this problem.

Now, on the opposite of what I just talked about will also help things. Using components as an example again, if you can afford to buy things from the shops and want to do so for the convenience of it (i.e. NOT having to go hunt for/fight for/make them), why not hire a PC to do it? I know a lot of low level characters are happy to go do this sort of thing for a bit of coin. Again, this isn't limited to just component gathering. What about hiring a low level PC servant? You pay them to go do whatever you need them to like bring you food, fetch someone, write a note, etc. (This might also stress the importance of a well written contract which gives rise to a need for lawyer type characters, but additional type characters is something for another discussion). Simply put, if you've got money, why not give some of it to other PCs to make your own life easier?

These are just a couple suggestions, but what I'm really trying to get at is a more PC to PC system. Right now, yes, grinding is the primary means of getting coin. But if I understand correctly, the problem is that the economies keep going bankrupt, right? That's not really true. PC are a HUGE part of the economy. Just a guess, but I'd be willing to bet that the savings of a single 'rich' PC are FAR more than the coded economy of Waterdeep. This 'PC economy' has gone fairly well untapped so far and I think we should really look into changing that. Granted, as pointed out earlier, we don't have thousands of players. But I think even what few players we do have can make it work. I'm no economist, but I do know that the key to a healthy economy is currency flow. What we see in the game is: grinding gets you items which are sold in shops which get's you money....And that's where things stagnate. Now, I'm not saying this method is wrong or should be removed. If that's what people want to do, I guess go for it. However, if you actively work to get PC's into the equation, you see something like: Rich pays Lowbie to get components, Lowbie gets money, Rich get's components. Rich uses components to make potions, Rich sells potions and get's money. Buyer uses potion to complete quest and earns magical item. Magical item makes Buyer stronger. Lowbie uses money to hire Buyer's help with another quest. Lowbie get's money and armor from quest....I could go on, but won't. In either case, you have to put in some work to get money, but in the latter case, three people, rather than just one benefit from it.

I'm not trying to say the economy should be purely player run, far from it. Due to the nature of the game, coin HAS to be basically coming in from no where (i.e. shopkeepers, quests, etc.), BUT by trying to get inter-PC transactions more common, I think we both take a large step towards fixing the problem as well as promoting RP.

[Elke]

But it's doable and it's doable by low level characters.

Whilst I agree with most of what you say, I don't know that this is so true. If it is, it's not something easy to do for a new player who doesn't know their way around very well...

The idea of hiring a lower-level PC is great, but, I honestly think that certainly some rich characters got that way by not being inclined to pay someone else when they could do it themselves. Just how it's seemed so far!

[Takket]

I never said it was easy. In fact, I said it WASN'T easy. All I said was that it can be done. I will give you that it may be harder (but still not impossible) for new players, but that just stresses the importance of us helping out those new players and those new players seeking help from us. This applies to all aspects of the game for new players, not just components.

I simplified a lot of what I said, so if I implied that everyone should be going out and hiring PCs all the time, I apologize. A lot of this is contextual, so what you are able to do is going to depend largely on where you are at in building your wealth. Hiring lower level characters is definitely not a good way to build wealth (And Elke is right in stating that most rich characters DO get rich by doing things themselves). The suggestion, however, was for people who are ALREADY rich, not those working their way there. If you can afford to hire people, I think it is very helpful if you do. If you CAN'T afford to hire people, then I would agree you're not helping yourself by doing so.