Flight - recent changes

[Ramirus]

You don't need to be an older player to think up of workarounds, in my opinion. Using the look command to see in front of you is crucial. Furthermore, when you travel, there are only certain spots where it really is not advisable to get off the road, such as mountain passes, which makes perfect sense. I think it makes scouting more important, because you cannot fly willy-nilly over Faerun anymore with no fear of any dangerous creatures, you have to look at maps and think about the best route to get from Pt. A to Pt. B. You can still explore, you just can't zip by mobs that are supposed to be dangerous anymore. So either you prepare to fight them, or prepare a way around them. As I see it, it adds another step of planning and care into adventuring, which isn't just making the game harder for people, it is just requiring a little more thought.

[Kallias]

That's the point of fly. You are suppose to be able to zip by dangerous mobs. It's the defining spell of wizards - they are far more difficult to be able to touch, than they are to kill.

It's an instance of cutting off the nose to spite the face. There was a problem. The fix for the problem was too extreme and now the problem is bigger than it was to begin with, just in the other direction.

Surely there is a way to keep the incredibly important utility of fly (avoiding dangerous stuff), and still remove the problem at hand (using fly to solo large groups of npc's). I still feel just being able to use speed fly is very valuable and worth the spell level in this medium, but I understand the negative reaction to it...it's too much.

[Melusine]

This change to fly is honestly all bad... It just plain doesn't make sense. Especially when it effects riding mounts who fly, who wouldn't be ten feet or so off the ground (and in reach of mobs), but up higher where they could get the wind beneath them. Flight is a beautiful thing, and if I am playing any class who doesn't get it, I'm certainly not going to begrudge something so useful. Especially after they put in the commands 'land' and 'fly'. It isn't logical to fly so low unless your character had some great fear of heights. Its sad to see spells and skills down-powered one after another :-/ They are definitely not 'improvements'.

Just make it instead where if you attack something in the room, you become fair game to anything else that'd want to fight you. Easily fixed. Done.

[Ryldaen]

I must first confess to being very biased. I love flying whether using the spell a flying mount or polymorphed to a flying shape.

Flying is, and should be the premier fight avoidance strategy. It is for fast travel in the overland, it already does not work inside or underground a fair limitation as in most dungeons there is no space to gain distance from any creatures. But outside you should be able to fly with a flying mount or a fly spell high enough to not be bothered by random snakes and such. Fine sometimes a kobold will throw a dagger at you and bring you into a fight, fine if you run into a wyvern you should watch out. But snakes, bandits and other random mobs should be avoidable.

I think this change is thoroughly bad, i can see the point that abusing flight to down mobs with impunity is a bad thing but there has to be a better way of addressing this.

In my experience of fighting giants i can fly up to a giant cast my first spell and that will initiate combat. During combat i hit the giant, the giant hits me and if any of his friends turn up they start beating on me too, If i flee then i am flying again and the giant is left waving his arms around, or at the end of the combat i take off again. What is wrong with this ? If i initiate a fight and want to kill the mob then i get hit. This is in my opinion how fly should be, it gives you the control of when to engage in combat but once you do no other real advantage.

The only way of abusing flight i have seen is by using flight and ranged spells. If you for example cast a lightning bolt from one room away you can hit and damage creature and it will then come into your room and be left unable to hit you. You can then move to another room (being followed by the mob) and if you are fast enough cast another spell at range.

It seems to be implied that using nofight you can cast spells without initiating combat and therefore getting pulled into combat ? If so is mode nofight not the problem rather than the flight.

Possible solutions:

You do any damage to any mob in any way you land. Whether mode nofight at range or any other status you are landed immediately therefore allowing the mob and any of his friends a chance at getting at you.

Or make nofight mode not apply to mob fights if that is possible in code. I would even favour disabling the mode altogether rather than effectively rendering all flying useless. I would think that more people fly than indulge in PVP using nofight.

Ryldaen.... who really REALLY loves flying.

[Elke]

I actually only learned of the nofight tactic very recently. Never used it. I'd happily have it completely not applicable to mobs, and to be honest it would make more sense that way.

There are in character maps available for sale in the game that link to the maps featured on this website. Using them would be rather more ic than simply casting fly and speeding across the map directly in my opinion. However, for everyone that has trouble with maps (A few people do, which is fine) There are safe ic modes of transit like the caravans and boats. It all depends on preference and the amount of time you want to dedicate to roleplay. If you can't dedicate the time then the new changes would probably seem worse or more taxing then they are.

There are indeed safe IC modes of transit, none of which cost less than two platinum as far as I know of. Which for most lowbie and indeed even relatively high-level characters is outrageously expensive. A factor that has to be taken into account when considering this problem. I've already mentioned elsewhere that these travel costs should be lowered, but honestly, it seems...madness...that it is actually easier to travel -off- a road than on it. Time after time, especially early on, the advice I've been given by other characters on travelling is always 'don't stray -onto- the road' rather than 'don't stray off it'...a road is supposed to be a trade route, possibly kept in repair by some government or other, perhaps even patrolled by soldiers at least parts of the way. It's supposed to be -easier- and -safer- to travel on.

Instead, it's patrolled by caravan guards - who will join in and try to kill a PC who fights a bandit, rather than protect and defend them. At this rate, I'm surprised that a new road hasn't been worn away by all the travellers heading along at the -side- of the road...

Now, I concede that most commoners probably just -don't- travel much, and would consider leaving their city or village an arduous and dangerous journey, but there must be -some- sort of economy coach option for when they -do- need to visit Great-Uncle Tom in Highmoon who remembered them in his will after all. I hope so, anyway.

I'd like to add here that for a very long time Elke navigated entirely by roads, -whilst- flying, and bought quite a few maps. She never just set off to speed across the map because she was aware that she had no idea what she would encounter, specifically whether it might be armed with bows or flying as well. (She also kept to roads because she is played by me and I am directionally challenged and therefore she is as well, but that's another matter entirely )

Furthermore, when you travel, there are only certain spots where it really is not advisable to get off the road, such as mountain passes, which makes perfect sense. I

I'm afraid I can't say that the above is true at all. There are too many wandering mobs for any lowbie traveller to fly or walk safely at one side of the road with any sense of certainty, and whilst look will keep you advised of creatures that are ahead -now-, it does nothing about the mobs that appear a split second after you walked into the square. Hill giants spilling out from the Sunset Mountains. Wandering kobolds. At low levels these encounters will kill you if you are unlucky enough to find them.

[Gwain]

There are indeed safe IC modes of transit, none of which cost less than two platinum as far as I know of. Which for most lowbie and indeed even relatively high-level characters is outrageously expensive.

I find that walking, riding a horse, are generally free. The caravan offers quests, rare foods and chances for interaction if you give it a chance too. Well worth the cost.

[Elke]

Unfortunately, both walking and riding a horse require the same interaction
with mobs that are, to a lowbie wizard, deadly. (I couldn't comment on the quests,
I think I've only ever done the caravan trip once due to the high costs.) Walking
especially is so costly with regards to stamina that Elke couldn't actually make it
further than the Misty Forest at very low levels. I took you to be suggesting that
the caravans were 'safe' transport and so suitable for low-level characters to get
around with without the Fly spell. And brought up the objection of the high price.
Coin is very tight for a low-level wizard, which makes the suggestion 'take the
coach' even less applicable as a solution for them.

As for a horse, they cost coin and are no use without the Handle Animal skill.

[Larethiel]

I think coin is difficult to obtain with every lowlevel character, not really depending on class. A horse...or a pony can be purchased very cheap, they really do not cost much, if you buy cheap ones. Of course, Bilbo, your average pony costs less and is not as good as Fury, who costs thrice as much as Bilbo but has higher Stamina. And the Handle animal skill can also be learned by wizards. In fact, spellcasters with the old fly did not really have to learn handle animal, since fly > common equine mount. Everyone else without flight spells either has to walk or buy a four legged transportation mobile/train the skill. The low stamina is not a problem exclusevily to wizards. Hostile encounters are, in fact, dangerous for any low level character, not really depending on class. Sure, wizards have little HP...but so have rogues, bards and almost any low level PC

Would FK keep strictly to FR-Sourcebook rules, Flight (The common flight not the more powerful version of it Overlandflight or whatever it's called) would only last a few minutes depending on casterlevel and not really being one of the useful ways to travel long distances.

[Gwain]

I think the problem was that flight was being used by everyone and their mother's uncle at all times and everywhere they went. It stopped being a treasured spell and started being a convenience until the point it was the biggest unspoken joke alive. What we have now is the higher result of the joke: flight is the same but we will now be attacked. This will probably destroy some of the convenience but it is necessary. Compared to several years ago, flight has become too commonplace. Now that we have it with conditions, we at least have a chance for some normalcy. No one is telling you that you can't fly to conserve stamina or travel faster, its just that now you may have to fight sometimes. So best prepare if you choose that route.

[Elke]

The problem is, wizards already have trouble with money due to buying spell components, and at low levels, without trades or contacts, it often really -is- need. And obviously wizards do get Handle Animal, but as I recall it's prerequisites are reasonably high level, certainly high enough that I wanted the skill for Elke long before I could actually get it!

[Kallias]

So flight is now just a horse that can go over water? "Coooooome on" is an appropriate argument.

[Gwain]

I stand by what I said, despite all the arguments otherwise and the trolling statements made. I think the changes are necessary and were probably the best ones we could get, because of coding difficulties outlined at the beginning of the forum. I welcome suggestions on the future of flight though, on things that can be changed, but honestly I doubt it will go back to the way it is no matter how many people voice their concern personal or otherwise. I'll make the best of it and move on.

[Jaenoic]

I haven't really read most of the posts in this thread... Many seem a little heated. I'm not steamed over this issue, but I thought I would just drop my opinion in for what it is worth. I haven't had the opportunity to use fly since it has been changed, but from how it was described I don't think it's a positive or realistic change. I don't play many wizards but I do have a character with a flying mount, and that mount would realistically fly well above anyone else. To force combat on my character while riding said mount seems out of place.

Also, what is the difference now between fly and levitate? I had always thought levitate to be like fly, except you cannot avoid enemies. Now I'm not sure there is a difference?

[Kallias]

I welcome suggestions on the future of flight though, on things that can be changed, but honestly I doubt it will go back to the way it is no matter how many people voice their concern personal or otherwise.

That's not exactly a winning mission statement.

[Mouat]

I will only add that even with FLY, certain NPCs would still attack you. The wyverns near the Keep are one that come to mind as to the griffons north of waterdeep.

Others have made vallid points for the new fly and the old.

I am not sure what the right fix is, but perhaps there can be some middle ground that would work?

Just my two cents,

Mouat,

[Dranso]

The fact is that we were all warned a while ago not to attack multiple NPCs while flying, anywhere at anytime. And it stinks that a select few or those that just didn't get the memo still did this. This is what happens though when people can't play by the rules.... more rules are instated unfortunatly.

Please correct me if I'm wrong but I do believe this is why fly was changed.

Also as a character that uses a flying mount quite often I do believe its silly to be attacked while flying and not provoking the fight. But hey, its really not that big of change and doesn't really affect anything. So now I have to move two extra spaces or kill a couple bandits. This adds two to three seconds to my travel tops. As for lowbies and new players, I'm sure they don't mind the extra kismet and exp that will be thrown their way now.

[Jharthyne]

The reason why wizards have to spend so much money on spells and spell components is really a way to balance the game, and to make advancing in levels for a wizard difficult. Because being a wizard is difficult. It is not easy learning how to bring about death and destruction with a few chants and gestures. While you see many fighters and rogues, you rarely encounter an archmage or high priest, because it is just not easy to be one. It takes time and effort, which in the game is implemented by making the PC work to earn money to pay off for components/spells.

I do agree, however, that changing flight to its current form is a bit drastic. A better fix would probably to make its duration more in line with tabletop rules (ie. taking into account skill level or character level, and not lasting hours except for archmages who have GMed the spell), and factoring in whether a PC is inside a city or in the wilderness (where by right, each square is a lot bigger...) That way, you don't have common mages flying around from city to city, yet it gives the low-level mage an option to fly away from a fight (just like how a rogue can sneak past a potential fight).

[Isaldur]

Also, what is the difference now between fly and levitate? I had always thought levitate to be like fly, except you cannot avoid enemies. Now I'm not sure there is a difference?

Levitate in FK originally made you float and allowed you to move at an accellerated rate of speed with barely any stamina taken.

Later on it was changed to reduce the speed aspect completely so while you may be floating, you move at a far slower rate than flying and it uses about or as much stamina as walking over that terrain type.

Here is how the actual spell is supposed to work per PnP.

Levitate
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, S, F
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal or close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: You or one willing creature or one object (total weight up to 100 lb./level)
Duration: 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

Levitate allows you to move yourself, another creature, or an object up and down as you wish. A creature must be willing to be levitated, and an object must be unattended or possessed by a willing creature. You can mentally direct the recipient to move up or down as much as 20 feet each round; doing so is a move action. You cannot move the recipient horizontally, but the recipient could clamber along the face of a cliff, for example, or push against a ceiling to move laterally (generally at half its base land speed).

A levitating creature that attacks with a melee or ranged weapon finds itself increasingly unstable; the first attack has a -1 penalty on attack rolls, the second -2, and so on, to a maximum penalty of -5. A full round spent stabilizing allows the creature to begin again at -1.

Focus
Either a small leather loop or a piece of golden wire bent into a cup shape with a long shank on one end.

Currently FK's levitation still isn't quite PnP and as you can see it is not supposed to be like fly at all. Mainly I've always used it as a failsafe for areas where you may drop a long distance and don't care to get hurt or to move across bodies of water.

[Kelemvor]

Nothing new to add to the (very useful) debate above.. but I was intrigued by this comment...

Honestly, I don't see that anything that makes travel, scouting and exploration harder (or devalues the usefulness of mages) is really encouraging to the RP side of things.

I'm old fashioned I know... but magic users aren't a group's scouts or explorers: their usefulness derives from the ability to immolate enemies or hamper an enemy not the ability to move swiftly across all terrains and over all foes

If a wizard wishes to travel safely then they need to learn other spells - invisibility, teleportation etc to do so.

If a wizard wishes to explore then they need to do so in company (Go on - put the Multi- back into Mudding!)

[Glim]

Why should a third level spell (Fly in D20) be any more or less commonplace than a wizard casting fireball, which is also a 3rd level spell. Wizards are fairly common in FR, and especially among adventurers, so magic is going to be common in a high magic realm like FR.

Flying above enemies to rain down a fiery death is the epitome of what a wizard does. As per the spell, with all safety a wizard could fly 60 feet above the ground and easily be able to hit any enemies below with a fireball (range 400 ft. + 40 ft./level (if that range doesn't make a good argument for flight, I don't know what does)) or lightning bolt (range 120 ft) and the only thing to hinger them would be the 1d6 rounds of slowfalling at 60ft per round or the smaller duration (1min per level).

The inability of mobs to be able to be coded to react is the only valid reasoning here I see to remove the ability. But then, maybe a mob should be coded to flee if this happens? With the removal, we are removing the ability for a wizard to actually put himself out of harms way when casting and thus making it once more a completely 2 dimensional fighting space.

Flight is not just a travelling spell. Flying above your enemies out of their range is the whole point of it. Remember Alustriel flying above the battle in her flying chariot? That is the point.